A question for the judoka...

tallaght01

I was listening to some krav guy talking about chokeholds.

The type of choke that's known as a "sleeper hold" came up. It's the first maneouvre I've heard martial arts people saying that there's no escape from (aside from getting out of it by aiming shots to the groin etc). BUt the point they were making is that there's no reliable way to release yourself from the choke itself.

I was just wondering what the general consensus is about that?

I figured the judo guys are the experts when it comes to chokes, so thought you guys might have an opinion. All opinions welcome though

Cheers guys.

john kavanagh

train bjj

Clive

"If do right, no can defence."

Seriosuly though, yes it's very difficult to escape a fully locked in rear naked choke on the ground, but it is possible. Trying to hit the guy in the knackers is not a good way to do it either.

tallaght01

A) bjj sounds too much like oral sex for my liking

will bjj allow me to improve by ball-kicking skills? I've become quite the expert scrote-cruncher in my last year of KM

:P

tallaght01

Clive wrote: »

"If do right, no can defence."

Seriosuly though, yes it's very difficult to escape a fully locked in rear naked choke on the ground, but it is possible. Trying to hit the guy in the knackers is not a good way to do it either.

If some guy has you in a choke from behind that you can't release, grabbing/striking his nuts has to be an option.

Clive

tallaght01 wrote: »

If some guy has you in a choke from behind that you can't release, grabbing/striking his nuts has to be an option.

It's an option alright, but it's an option that will result in you being rendered unconscious with someone you just hit in the nuts having carte blanche to do whatever they like with your body.

Scramble

If some guy has you in a choke from behind that you can't release, grabbing/striking his nuts has to be an option.

If you are grappling with someone who is compentent and they are on your back (or on top of you or otherwise in the right position) and sink in a choke, then I think you might find it harder than you expect to attack their groin (or their eyes for that matter). There's a lot of weight and pressure on you, the choke goes on fast, and if they're in a dominant position then it's quite easy for them to shift their hips and move around if they need to.

I don't know whether it would be a good thing or not if all we had to do to escape a locked-in grappling technique applied by someone that knows what they are doing was simply to want to nail them in the groin, but either way it's not quite that straight forward.

judosean2005

it is very difficult to escape from a rear naked choke. your best chance( apart from hitting him in the balls), is to try and slide your fingers up between your opponents shoulder and your neck. so for example your left hand slides crosses your body to opponents right shoulder.this should give you enough leverage to either raise opponents arm over your head or secondly for you to turn your entire body to face your opponent.

spiral

the first thing you should be worried about when someone has you in an RNC is creating space so you can breathe second is increasing that space, third IMHO is hanging on there until your opponent gives up on the RNC or gives you an opp to escape but hit hm in the balls if you want...

Nothingcompares

9/10 there is no escape from a well applied choke/strangle/arm lock. If I take your back, wrap my left arm under your throat, grab my right bicep with my left hand,and slide my right hand to the back of your head/neck and squeeze, you can try all the ball grabbing and eye poking you want, you will be unconscious in 10/15 seconds. Of course, you want to escape before the icing has been put on the cake and often I take a good bjj player or judo players back and cannot choke them because they escape the position.

In my opinion, once you're caught, you're caught.

judosean2005

Ok so we are all agreed, the best way out of a rear naked choke is to not get caught in the first place. Golden Rule of any martial arts, never give your opponent your back,9/10 they will punish you for it.

tallaght01

judosean2005 wrote: »

it is very difficult to escape from a rear naked choke. your best chance( apart from hitting him in the balls), is to try and slide your fingers up between your opponents shoulder and your neck. so for example your left hand slides crosses your body to opponents right shoulder.this should give you enough leverage to either raise opponents arm over your head or secondly for you to turn your entire body to face your opponent.

Cheers man, that's the kind of thing I was looking for.

Nothingcompares wrote: »

9/10 there is no escape from a well applied choke/strangle/arm lock. If I take your back, wrap my left arm under your throat, grab my right bicep with my left hand,and slide my right hand to the back of your head/neck and squeeze, you can try all the ball grabbing and eye poking you want, you will be unconscious in 10/15 seconds. Of course, you want to escape before the icing has been put on the cake and often I take a good bjj player or judo players back and cannot choke them because they escape the position.

In my opinion, once you're caught, you're caught.

Fair play to you if you can cope with having your nuts squeezed for 10-15 seconds!!! Personally, I'd release the hold :P

arybvtcw0eolkf

tallaght01 wrote: »

Fair play to you if you can cope with having your nuts squeezed for 10-15 seconds!!! Personally, I'd release the hold :P

I think you might be a little confused with what Kevin is getting at.

Once the choke is in you've very, very little time to react. You'll be napping in 10-15 seconds, but hitting the panic button in a tenth of that time, you'll barely have time to both defend/escape the choke and hit someone in the balls.

Someone else mentioned taking your back, thats very true too. Really I can't see much oppertunity to gouge eyes, hit the groin, stamp on a foot etc.

My suggestion for you would be to get along to either a good Judo club (if you can make Coolmine or Portmarnock you'll quickly see what we're taking about) or any BJJ club.

I'm not suggesting for a second you leave KM, but go visit one of those clubs/styles and take what you learn back to your KM class, you and your training partners will be all the richer for it.

yomchi

Having been caught in one of these before in training, I can assure you Tallaght101, the last thing on your mind is grabbing nuts or gouging etc. When the hold goes on properly you tend to place all your emphasis on the choking arms, pulling them away as much as possible trying to get a breath and trying to get you chin down to your chest. You haven't long before you're tapping which about 6 seconds out from fainting.

Not to be tried at home

arybvtcw0eolkf

Jon wrote: »

Not to be tried at home

/Runs off to check the 'Sex and Sexuality' forum..

Nothingcompares

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ovb6ZAOJ8mg

have a look.

Nothingcompares

even better, when would you eye poke/groin grab me here?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YuOnw5UhRgs

tallaght01

Mairt wrote: »

Once the choke is in you've very, very little time to react. You'll be napping in 10-15 seconds, but hitting the panic button in a tenth of that time, you'll barely have time to both defend/escape the choke and hit someone in the balls.

Someone else mentioned taking your back, thats very true too. Really I can't see much oppertunity to gouge eyes, hit the groin, stamp on a foot etc.

My suggestion for you would be to get along to either a good Judo club (if you can make Coolmine or Portmarnock you'll quickly see what we're taking about) or any BJJ club.

I'm not suggesting for a second you leave KM, but go visit one of those clubs/styles and take what you learn back to your KM class, you and your training partners will be all the richer for it.

See, that's what I'm getting at. I know fine well that a choke will knock you out in seconds. That's why I was asking how you can defend it. If you don't have time to lash someone in the nuts, how do you have time to defend the chokehold itself?

Like, is there a technique for getting out of it? In training, we always focus on avoiding the choke, or getting out of it before it's properly applied. But was just wondering of there's an effective way of getting out of it when it's actually applied.

Would love to cross train in judo actually, as chokes/throws are generally the weakest part of my game. But I'm in Oz, so getting to portmarnock might be difficult :P

Pingu

tallaght01 wrote: »

...But was just wondering of there's an effective way of getting out of it when it's actually applied....

Once it's applied it's generally sleepy time, always quite strange when you come around and you think you're still in the match/fight wondering what the paramedics are doing on the mat.

Just work on trying to avoid giving up your back, and if you do how to get out of there asap before it's sunk in.

Nothingcompares

I don't think rock paper scissors theory applies to fighting. In that, if someone throws a punch, kick, knee, elbow, submission, etc. at you there isn't some panacea for that attack. It comes down to who is better. You might do a strangle, once, twice, maybe 5 times in a krav maga class but bjj guys do it 100, 1000 times and that's how they get the ability to deal with them in an alive format.

dlofnep

If someone is choking you from behind in a standing position, you could try shift your hips out to the side and hit them with a hip throw.. Generally, you'll probably panic before you even think of it and would want to be training in an environment with chokes before you'd feel a little bit more comfortable.

On the ground, the general idea is to pull the high hand down and control it in a 2 on 1 situation, where your 2 hands control his one hand..

There are too many variables. Best solution is to do what JK said - Train BJJ.

tallaght01

Nothingcompares wrote: »

I don't think rock paper scissors theory applies to fighting. In that, if someone throws a punch, kick, knee, elbow, submission, etc. at you there isn't some panacea for that attack. It comes down to who is better. You might do a strangle, once, twice, maybe 5 times in a krav maga class but bjj guys do it 100, 1000 times and that's how they get the ability to deal with them in an alive format.

1000 chokes in a BJJ class???? My windpipe wouldn't tolerate it.

dlofnep wrote: »

If someone is choking you from behind in a standing position, you could try shift your hips out to the side and hit them with a hip throw.. Generally, you'll probably panic before you even think of it and would want to be training in an environment with chokes before you'd feel a little bit more comfortable.

On the ground, the general idea is to pull the high hand down and control it in a 2 on 1 situation, where your 2 hands control his one hand..

There are too many variables. Best solution is to do what JK said - Train BJJ.

Cheers man. We spend a lot of time on chokes in KM. But everyone is always desperate to avoid the RNC. Was just curious about whether anyone had gotten out of them on a regular basis, and was there a particular way of doing it.

I'm working on the non-panicking :P

rosgirl

To be honest even if you don't panick there is still no clear cut way to get out of such a hold. Rather than trying to learn to get out of the hold you would be better off spending time working on techniques to help you avoid having this hold placed on you altogether.

Naos

dlofnep wrote: »

On the ground, the general idea is to pull the high hand down and control it in a 2 on 1 situation, where your 2 hands control his one hand..

This would be the best idea, however once you pull that high hand down the low hand will just become the high hand and you'll eventually be choked out.

tallaght01 wrote: »

1000 chokes in a BJJ class???? My windpipe wouldn't tolerate it.

I'm working on the non-panicking :P

I don't think he meant 1000 chokes in one class! Over the course of time you will come up against the technique in a variety of different positions and so when you're in a certain position you know you're open for the RNC.

"I do not fear the man who practises 10,000 kicks once, I fear the man who practises one kick 10,000 times."

At the end of the day perfect practise makes perfect and if you're at the receiving end of a RNC by an experienced fighter, you're pretty much out for the count.

FruitLover

tallaght01 wrote: »

1000 chokes in a BJJ class???? My windpipe wouldn't tolerate it.

Most of them are technically strangles, rather than chokes. I.e. compressing the carotid arteries, rather than the windpipe.

tallaght01

FruitLover wrote: »

Most of them are technically strangles, rather than chokes. I.e. compressing the carotid arteries, rather than the windpipe.

Hey it wasn't me who said it. But I'd defo prefer to have me carotics squashed for a bit than my trachea!!! :pac: