Stake line and OOB question

billy3sheets

Played on Sunday with a guy who hit a good drive but a bit long and right. On the right is an OOB forming a right angle which his ball crosses. There is no white stake on the corner of the OOB, but there are stakes about 6 feet from it on either side. If you drew a line from the 2 stakes, cutting off the corner, then his ball looked in bounds. If you follow the right angle, it was definitely out.
None of the 4 ball knew the correct answer, but 2 of us thought it was definitely out in the spirit of the OOB, so that's what he played.
Something like the bad diagram below. There was no paint to define the OOB, but the horizontal bit is a drain.
Is he in or out?

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DonkeyPokerTour

billy3sheets wrote: »

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Just for clarity am i right in saying:

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The blue ball here is 100% in bounds and the red ball is 100% out of bounds? Just I'm not clear from your diagram or your description which side is in bounds and which is out of bounds.

Genco

Are these the only two stakes or are there additional stakes along the perimeter ? (ie are there additional stakes along the vertical and horizontal lines which you drew like below ?)



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billy3sheets

Genco - yes, lines of stakes along as you've illustrated.

Donkey - yes & yes. Blue ball is in, red ball is OOB.
If you draw line between 2 (+) stakes, black ball is on the in bound side. If you follow the line (drain horizontal, edge of grass vertical), then it is on the OOB side. I've adjusted my diagram based on both of yours and it's very accurately represents the situation now.

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scout353

billy3sheets wrote: »

Genco - yes, lines of stakes along as you've illustrated.

Donkey - yes & yes. Blue ball is in, red ball is OOB.
If you draw line between 2 (+) stakes, black ball is on the in bound side. If you follow the line (drain horizontal, edge of grass vertical), then it is on the OOB side. I've adjusted my diagram based on both of yours and it's very accurately represents the situation now.

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IMO - From this diagram and in the absence of a stake at the right angle there is a reasonable case for declaring the ball to be inbounds!

Under the rules, the line of OB runs directly from stake to stake so if there was not one in the corner then he could play the ball!

However, could it be that the stake had fallen into the drain?

ShriekingSheet

According to the rules of golf the ball is absolutely in bounds.
Unless there's a white painted line, OOB is defined by a straight line from stake to stake. If there is a line this takes precedence but there wasn't in your case.

However, many courses define OOB in their local rules as "in or over drains and cuttings". This is usually when they have little trenches along the white stakes. If there is such a local rule and your ball is the far side of a drain as in your diagram, you're out of bounds.
Where this local rule is in place, it will usually come with specifics such as "...on the left of the 6th, 8th and 17th fairways" to clarify it for you.

So to answer your question, check the local rules on the card. If it doesn't have anything to add to what the rules of golf say about OOB, you're in bounds.

billy3sheets

Fair enough shriek.
The only relevant rule related to OOB on the course is:
Outside a line of white stakes.
So I guess technically he was in bounds then.

I do think the corner should be marked with a stake or a white line as it is definitely the intention that it should be out of bounds where his ball was.
As it stands, you could actually be in the leftmost part of the drain, be in bounds yet not be in a hazard as there are no red/yellow stakes.

Also, as referred to by scout353, what if a stake has fallen over? Is it still a stake?

scout353

billy3sheets wrote: »

Also, as referred to by scout353, what if a stake has fallen over? Is it still a stake?

If the stake had fallen into the drain then it is still OB - in your circumstances you would have to check with the office when you got in or the local rules. It sounds like the stake is missing from the corner but if it was a tournament the referee would have to allow the ball be inbounds if he came upon the situation and there was no mention of the drain in the local rules or a white line or a stake in the corner!

ShriekingSheet

billy3sheets wrote: »

Fair enough shriek.
The only relevant rule related to OOB on the course is:
Outside a line of white stakes.
So I guess technically he was in bounds then.

I do think the corner should be marked with a stake or a white line as it is definitely the intention that it should be out of bounds where his ball was.
As it stands, you could actually be in the leftmost part of the drain, be in bounds yet not be in a hazard as there are no red/yellow stakes.?

Yes it probably should be OOB but it's an example of how knowing the rules can save you shots, as opposed to just informing you of penalties you need to apply to yourself.
Shudda-but-didna - the rules are on your side and you're in bounds.

billy3sheets wrote: »

Also, as referred to by scout353, what if a stake has fallen over? Is it still a stake?

Interesting question. I don't know the answer for sure. There's nothing in the rule book. There may be something in the "Decisions on the Rules of Golf" book.

I'd be confident in the following though:
There is no definition of what a stake is in the rule book or (chances are) in the local rules. Therefore, a stake is a stake, whether it be stuck in or lying on the ground. The rules say that the inner-most point of the stake is the line. So in a situation where you have a line of stakes and one has fallen, the inner most edge (course-side) of each stake, including the one on the ground, is the line of OOB.

***That said, the best thing to do is take a second ball, treat the first as if it's in bounds and finish the hole with it. At the same time, play a second ball as if the first had been OOB (so go back). Finish the hole with both balls and note both scores on the card. A ruling can be gotten later by phone from the GUI or R&A and the appropriate score will stand. It might sound strange but this is completely acceptable practice and makes logical sense.***

Note: If a player has moved the stake, he/she should have incurred a 2 stroke penalty. OOB stakes (as opposed to hazard ones or distance stakes) are not obstructions, they are "fixed" so must not be moved. A red or yellow stake can be moved as it is a movable obstruction.

Hulkamaniac

I think he was in bounds, the absence of a stake means you should draw a line "as the crow flies" between the two white stakes, if he is on the fairway side of that line then in bounds.
But I'm not sure he could've played the hole with two balls - and check which one was correct, I suggested this before when trying to work out a different ruling and my playing partner said it would have been deemed practicing!

ShriekingSheet

Hulkamaniac wrote: »

But I'm not sure he could've played the hole with two balls - and check which one was correct, I suggested this before when trying to work out a different ruling and my playing partner said it would have been deemed practicing!

Horse manure.

It's common sense that a Rules Official will not be on hand in 99.9% of golf competitions. If there is uncertainty, a player can finish the hole with two balls and later find out which ruling was correct. The score which the ball that was played in accordance with the rules is marked on the card. The other ball's score is disregarded.

It's under Rule 20-7c, which is convoluted but above is a summary. Here's a direct quote of part of it:
"Note 2: If a competitor plays a second ball under Rule 20-7c and it is
ruled not to count, strokes made with that ball and penalty strokes incurred
solely by playing that ball are disregarded. If the second ball is ruled to
count, the stroke made from the wrong place and any strokes subsequently
taken with the original ball including penalty strokes incurred solely by
playing that ball are disregarded."

Sorry to be anal but it gets under my skin when people give wrong advice on the rules, stating assumptions as fact. I'm not suggesting everyone should read the rule book like I do but if you want to give advice in a competition I think you should be sure.