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Garda speedchecks on private property

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  • 01-01-2009 4:53pm
    #1
    AugustusMaximus
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,044 ✭✭✭


    Come accross two situations in the last few days where a Garda has been standing on private property to conceal himself from road traffic in order to catch people speeding. Two questions.

    1. What position is the land owner in, in regards to this. Can the land owner essentially tell the Garda that he is trespassing and that he should leave his property ?

    2. Should any of the speed tickets the Garda hands out be declared null and void due to the Garda most likely breaking the law in order to hand them out ?


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    #2
    Supercell
    Registered Users Posts: 15,355 ✭✭✭✭Supercell


    The Gardai have been hiding behind a bush in an entrance into a local farm on a road near here armed with speed guns in a total sucker spot.
    The other day I noticed the owner had removed the bush and put up a small wire fence, totally unrelated I'm sure :D
    https://www.loughlinstown.ie

    Have a weather station?, why not join the Ireland Weather Network - http://irelandweather.eu/



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    #3
    Victor
    Registered Users Posts: 78,350 ✭✭✭✭Victor


    AugustusMaximus wrote: »
    Come accross two situations in the last few days where a Garda has been standing on private property to conceal himself from road traffic in order to catch people speeding.
    How certain are you that it is private property? If they are standing in a gateway is it private? If they are on a shopping centre road, is it private?
    1. What position is the land owner in, in regards to this. Can the land owner essentially tell the Garda that he is trespassing and that he should leave his property ?
    I imagine so. However, most people like the Garda doing checks outside their houses for selfish reasons.
    2. Should any of the speed tickets the Garda hands out be declared null and void due to the Garda most likely breaking the law in order to hand them out ?
    I suspect not. Its not as if the garda is encouraging people to speed.


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    #4
    Victor
    Registered Users Posts: 78,350 ✭✭✭✭Victor


    Moved from Commuting & Transport to Legal Discussion.


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    #5
    AugustusMaximus
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,044 ✭✭✭AugustusMaximus


    Victor wrote: »
    How certain are you that it is private property? If they are standing in a gateway is it private? If they are on a shopping centre road, is it private?

    The first place is behind a pier going into a farmers yard. I would imagine that standing between both piers would mean you are on private property ?

    The second is a disused petrol station, with two Gardai present. One with a speed gun and the other being used to run out onto the road to flag down speeders and hand out tickets.


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    #6
    Victor
    Registered Users Posts: 78,350 ✭✭✭✭Victor


    AugustusMaximus wrote: »
    The first place is behind a pier going into a farmers yard. I would imagine that standing between both piers would mean you are on private property ?
    Boundaries are typically the centreline of a wall.
    The second is a disused petrol station, with two Gardai present. One with a speed gun and the other being used to run out onto the road to flag down speeders and hand out tickets.
    Who's goign to complain?


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    #7
    AugustusMaximus
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,044 ✭✭✭AugustusMaximus


    Victor wrote: »

    Who's goign to complain?

    I'd imagine if you got caught and thought you could get off the ticket you would fairly fast.


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    #8
    fortuneteller
    Closed Accounts Posts: 277 ✭✭fortuneteller


    Sorry guys,and gals,;) but you may all get used of being caught doing 45 in a 40,That bull dog cow..an and his co,accused will force all members out on the roads to try and claw back from joe public the millions they have wasted in the last 10 years.Dont blame the foot soldiers,if they put some of the money they wasted into our road network there would be no need for members to be trying to raise revenue!! The GS like all other public servents take orders from the government.Next time they come crawling for your vote,Politely say sorry cant talk now and close your door!


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    #9
    corktina
    Closed Accounts Posts: 17,733 ✭✭✭✭corktina


    i think the law as regards provate property only applies to theft or damage. Im not sure you can stop anyone entering onto your land for a lawful purpose. which clearly this is.


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    #10
    meanmachine3
    Closed Accounts Posts: 551 ✭✭✭meanmachine3


    i dont see what the big deal is. if you speed and get caught then you deserve whatever comes your way. all i see here is someone looking for excuses on how to avoid a speeding fine /penalty. the guards can come into my drive way anytime they like to do a speeding check :p. the more muppets put off the roads the better. it's a pity they wont do anything about tailgating though :mad:


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    #11
    Johnny Utah
    Registered Users Posts: 2,157 ✭✭✭Johnny Utah


    corktina wrote: »
    i think the law as regards provate property only applies to theft or damage. Im not sure you can stop anyone entering onto your land for a lawful purpose. which clearly this is.

    Ha, you're joking right?

    Why not invite them round for breakfast then so? :P






    AugustusMaximus wrote: »
    Come accross two situations in the last few days where a Garda has been standing on private property to conceal himself from road traffic in order to catch people speeding. Two questions.

    1. What position is the land owner in, in regards to this. Can the land owner essentially tell the Garda that he is trespassing and that he should leave his property ?

    Yes.


    AugustusMaximus wrote: »
    2. Should any of the speed tickets the Garda hands out be declared null and void due to the Garda most likely breaking the law in order to hand them out ?


    Not sure. It would probably depend on the balance of the illegal action in detecting speeders and the public policy in convicting speeders.


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    #12
    Randomswinger
    Registered Users Posts: 92 ✭✭Randomswinger


    I know of one retail park where the Gaurds we're doing speed, licence tax and insurance checks etc. There was a praticular motor factors there that tended to attract "little boy racers" so it was like shooting fish in a barrel.

    Any convictions/fines were legal but the owner of the park told them they'd no permission to do it on his land when he got complaints from his tennent. Guards haven't been back since


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    #13
    testicle
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,430 ✭✭✭testicle


    Victor wrote: »
    Boundaries are typically the centreline of a wall.

    Not house front boundaries. My house was only granted planning permission if the front wall/hedge was 10 feet from the road, the edge of which is the boundary to allow for future widening of the road. 30 years later, the road still hasn't been widened.


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    #14
    Abraham
    Closed Accounts Posts: 254 ✭✭Abraham


    There's a legal nicety which states that evidence obtained illegally shall not be acceptable in court proceedings as to do so can be interpreted as the courts endorsing the servants of the state when they are acting contrary to the law. I think the prevailing view among legislators is that if that became established as a principle, then the Guards would frequently find reasons for acting illegally arguing that the end justified the means. It's a very dangerous area in which to allow any leniency to the custodians of the law.

    What would be the attitude of the objectors here if one of the Garda checkpoint cameras from a private property observation post detected a motor vehicle exiting an area where a very serious crime had taken place and there was some suspicion on either the vehicle or driver ? Should that evidence be offered in court in any subsequent proceedings ?


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    #15
    AugustusMaximus
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,044 ✭✭✭AugustusMaximus


    Abraham, that's what I'm thinking.

    For instance, if a Garda doesn't have a search warrant, and gain information for a case from a house without having a search warrant, then this evidence is null and void as the Garda was breaking the law.

    Surely the usage of someone's property for official Garda activity without the prior consent of the owner is trespass with all evidence (speed camera reading) being rendered null and void.


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    #16
    Victor
    Registered Users Posts: 78,350 ✭✭✭✭Victor


    corktina wrote: »
    i think the law as regards provate property only applies to theft or damage. Im not sure you can stop anyone entering onto your land for a lawful purpose. which clearly this is.
    While speedchecks are lawful, trespass isn't. However, the garda could also have gained exactly the same evidence from a public place - so the evidence isn't tainted. If the Garda had illegally added a tracker device to the car and used that as the basis for their prosecution, that would be illegally obtained.
    testicle wrote: »
    Not house front boundaries. My house was only granted planning permission if the front wall/hedge was 10 feet from the road, the edge of which is the boundary to allow for future widening of the road. 30 years later, the road still hasn't been widened.
    For these purposes, the courts would treat that strip of land as public - at least until such time as you informed the Garda that it wasn't. You can't tresspass until you have reasonable notice that you are trespassing (a boundary wall is usually enough).


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