Studying music technology/sound engineering - advice?

RoseBlossom

Hi everyone!

Apologies if this is the wrong place for my query! (Mods - please move somewhere more appropriate if need be!)

A family member is agonising over her CAO choices at the moment and is seriously considering studying music technology/sound engineering (with a view to becoming a music producer).

She's into music in the usual sense - she loves listening to it (mainly contemporary bands)/attending gigs/talking about it, and plays piano to a reasonable level.

Would anyone here be able to advise on what opportunities are available for graduates in this area and what would be the best means of pursuing a career (i.e. studying it at undergrad level/studying something broader at undergrad (like science) & then doing a post-grad/studing at night etc.)?

No one in the family has any experience in this field and we'd all be a bit clueless when it comes to the music industry so any advice is appreciated!

madtheory

Is she into recording/ technology already? If not, a sound engineering course would not serve her well IMHO, because it's not part of her skill set. I think a music degree would be much more useful than a sound engineering qualification, but I'm assuming from your brief description that it would match her skills closely. Pick a course that has a strong performance and theory element, rather than one with a musicological emphasis. If she is vague about her career (totally normal) then a combined arts and music degree might be the best thing for her. Science would be the wrong kind of broad for her! I think arts/ music would be better.

I'm making a lot of assumptions here, because we don't have enough info about your relative, so please take my advice with that in mind!

As for opportunities- with music tech, you make your own opportunities. If she's brilliant and has some entrepeneurial flair and confidence, she'd make a living. But if she wants to walk in to a job when she graduates, it's the wrong career.

RoseBlossom

Thanks madtheory,

She would only have a very limited experience of music technology (I think she did a weekend course for a few weeks when she was in transition year) and we wouldn't have any type of music software on the home pc for her to be experimenting on, so she wouldn't be a teen-DJ prodigy or anything <puts on big sister rose-tinted glasses> although that's not to say if she had the right tools she wouldn't be </takes off big sister rose-tinted glasses>.

If you asked her honestly why she wanted to be a music producer I think she would say it's because it's the closest thing she can get to being a music star...and because she likes music (she has admitted as much). It's not the best reason to want to follow a career but it's better than some!

Part of her wants to follow her dream and part of her tells her she'd be better off studying something "safer" and doing a postgrad in the area if she feels the same in 3 or 4 years. She did consider studying "pure" music but she discounted the option because a) she figures the entrance tests would exclude her and b) she also doesn't want to end up teaching music (although who's to say what she will want in a few years!).
I'll put it to her anyway, it might encourage her to practise more!

seannash

RoseBlossom wrote: »

Thanks madtheory,

She would only have a very limited experience of music technology (I think she did a weekend course for a few weeks when she was in transition year) and we wouldn't have any type of music software on the home pc for her to be experimenting on, so she wouldn't be a teen-DJ prodigy or anything <puts on big sister rose-tinted glasses> although that's not to say if she had the right tools she wouldn't be </takes off big sister rose-tinted glasses>.

If you asked her honestly why she wanted to be a music producer I think she would say it's because it's the closest thing she can get to being a music star...and because she likes music (she has admitted as much). It's not the best reason to want to follow a career but it's better than some!

Part of her wants to follow her dream and part of her tells her she'd be better off studying something "safer" and doing a postgrad in the area if she feels the same in 3 or 4 years. She did consider studying "pure" music but she discounted the option because a) she figures the entrance tests would exclude her and b) she also doesn't want to end up teaching music (although who's to say what she will want in a few years!).
I'll put it to her anyway, it might encourage her to practise more!

you can pursue a music production career outside of college.most dance music producer do it this way(im presuming dance as you brought up the dj prodigy bit)but other traditional musicians do it this way too.id say most dont have degrees in anything related to music in any of the bigger successful artists.so id say your right to maybe guide her into something with a better chance of employment.let her start to figure out production at home or do part time courses.after a while she will be better qualified to make the decision herself.software is so cheap these days getting started is really easy.any education regarding music will enevitably help her productions.
so yeah my advice(not saying its good )would be for her to look at the music course with the most overlap regarding employment oppurtunities and get her to start producing at home in her spare time.
she could always try get some real world studio experience by contacting a studio and offering to help out(making tea and what not) and have them let her sit in on recording sessions.theres a few ways to pursue it without going to college.i also think that real world experience counts for alot in the music world.

af_thefragile

I did a part time sound engineering course a few years ago and although it was great fun and i learnt a lot from it, it wasn't all that useful for me.
I don't know how useful it'ld turn out for her either. They do give you a good exposure into the production "scene" and such but then again this is Ireland and there's not much that happens here in that area. Well not much to be able to make to proper successful career out of it. Not saying its not possible, that aspect is entirely upto the individual but i'm just saying the chances aren't that much great.

I'll follow along with what the guys above me have suggested. I think the best way to go for her, in a music field, is to do a proper music course. Go for a good music degree that would also deal with employment and maybe the management/business aspects of it too.

Now days with all these softwares and internet around you can quite quite easily, but with some hardwork, teach yourself all the music production skills sitting at home on your computer. Its not very expensive at all anymore to produce your own music. She could always do a part-time sound engineering course and then get herself a job in a music studio or something where she could gain loads of real world experience.

To get anywhere in the music industry now days is more a matter of making contacts than having skill. So if she really wants to make it somewhere in the music industry, the biggest skill she needs to focus on and learn is the people skill. Its all about making those crucial contacts and pushing your way ahead!

PaulBrewer

RB, your post raises many questions.

Record Production, in most cases, isn't a career one takes a formal course in and afterwards gets a job as a 'Record Producer'.

That's not to say formal education isn't useful, but I'd say 90% of Producers I've ever worked with aren't formally educated post secondary level (or if they have 3rd level education not music related) and most of that last 10% have studied Music, not Production.

Another important point to establish is what a 'Producer' is - it's meaning has changed since the term came into use in the 60's.

The classic 'Producer' is a person who takes creative and practical control of a session i.e. works on the music, books studio time, organises musicians, and 'controls' the session etc etc. Similar to how a Director would relate to a film. In fact the term Director would be a much more accurate description, I think.

Since the 80s a Producer can also be someone who actually produces music. This idea of a producer came as electronic music grew more popular and mainstream with the advent of mass produced electronic musical instruments (synths/drum machines/sequencers) and a complete project might be made entirely by one person.

As you can see, two totally different descriptions of jobs with the same titles.

To further add to the confusion a 'Producer' could also be a combination of both those ideas.

The one thing they do have in common is that whilst one can study some of the elements necessary to become a producer (music theory, software operation, sound engineering etc.) one can't study to become a producer as such.

studiorat

As a veteran with nearly 20 years experience working in professional studios as both an engineer and a producer. I'd be very careful about recommending sound engineering to anyone thinking about it. Although you get to meet and work with some great people it is in fact a world of hurt!! Up till recently I was teaching nearly 90 full time students a year and I'd say less than 10 of them are actively working in the industry in some form or other.
That's 10 out of more than 300!

There is little, usually no security, the average wage for a sound engineer has hardly changed in more than 10 years. Banks etc. refer to it as a "lifestyle" career and therefore are more likely to see you as a liability.

Competition has grown hugely in the last couple of years as well and therefore has dropped the daily rate for an engineer or producer. Not to mention a decrease in the perceived value of the services of a good engineer or producer. In reality it is a really bad career move. The business in Ireland is practically a cottage industry.

Although there are other aspects to the music business such as music for games or film and television the reality of working in the industry is a long way off the glamorous lifestyle that people imagine it to be.

If your sister is interested in it as a hobby that's well and good but I'd suggest she think long and hard about a full time career as a sound engineer.

madtheory

RoseBlossom wrote: »

If you asked her honestly why she wanted to be a music producer I think she would say it's because it's the closest thing she can get to being a music star...

OK, she sound definitely do an arts/ music degree. Unless she is exceptionally talented, she's not going to be a star. Trying to be a producer as a compromise is simply not going to work out for her I feel.

Has she considered working in film/ TV/ advertising in an organisational or management role? There are many opportunities for musical types in the broader media business.

fitz

Sounds like a media course might be up her street.

RoseBlossom

seannash wrote: »

so yeah my advice(not saying its good )would be for her to look at the music course with the most overlap regarding employment oppurtunities and get her to start producing at home in her spare time.

Hi seannash, thanks for that! Would any music courses in particular jump out to you? She will have to move away from home to go to college anyway so location isn't a massive issue.

af_thefragile wrote: »

I did a part time sound engineering course a few years ago and although it was great fun and i learnt a lot from it, it wasn't all that useful for me.

I'll follow along with what the guys above me have suggested. I think the best way to go for her, in a music field, is to do a proper music course. Go for a good music degree that would also deal with employment and maybe the management/business aspects of it too.

Now days with all these softwares and internet around you can quite quite easily, but with some hardwork, teach yourself all the music production skills sitting at home on your computer. Its not very expensive at all anymore to produce your own music. She could always do a part-time sound engineering course and then get herself a job in a music studio or something where she could gain loads of real world experience.

Thanks af_thefragile, what other avenues were open to you (and your classmates) when you finished the course? Are you working in a somewhat-related field or a completely different area?

PaulBrewer wrote: »

That's not to say formal education isn't useful, but I'd say 90% of Producers I've ever worked with aren't formally educated post secondary level (or if they have 3rd level education not music related) and most of that last 10% have studied Music, not Production.

Do you think that will stay the same in the next 10 years or so? i.e. as more graduates in semi-related disciplines appear from new courses do you think the balance will shift?

PaulBrewer wrote: »

The classic 'Producer' is a person who takes creative and practical control of a session i.e. works on the music, books studio time, organises musicians, and 'controls' the session etc etc. Similar to how a Director would relate to a film. In fact the term Director would be a much more accurate description, I think.

Since the 80s a Producer can also be someone who actually produces music. This idea of a producer came as electronic music grew more popular and mainstream with the advent of mass produced electronic musical instruments (synths/drum machines/sequencers) and a complete project might be made entirely by one person.
...
The one thing they do have in common is that whilst one can study some of the elements necessary to become a producer (music theory, software operation, sound engineering etc.) one can't study to become a producer as such.

Thanks PaulBrewer, those "job descriptions" will be really helpful in getting her to really think about what it is she wants to do.

studiorat wrote: »

There is little, usually no security, the average wage for a sound engineer has hardly changed in more than 10 years. Banks etc. refer to it as a "lifestyle" career and therefore are more likely to see you as a liability.

Competition has grown hugely in the last couple of years as well and therefore has dropped the daily rate for an engineer or producer ...In reality it is a really bad career move... the reality of working in the industry is a long way off the glamorous lifestyle that people imagine it to be.

If your sister is interested in it as a hobby that's well and good but I'd suggest she think long and hard about a full time career as a sound engineer.

Thanks studiorat! As the rest of us all went down more "traditional" routes careerwise, we were afraid that ^^^ was the case but we thought maybe there's a whole world of great jobs out there that we didn't know about! (Yeah, we're an optimistic bunch! ) In terms of it being a hobby initially, - her teachers suggested that, but maybe coming from someone in the industry it might carry more weight. (It's not that we want to dissuade her - it's just that we want to give her the best advice we can.)

madtheory wrote: »

Has she considered working in film/ TV/ advertising in an organisational or management role? There are many opportunities for musical types in the broader media business.

fitz wrote: »

Sounds like a media course might be up her street.

I'll put it to her - I'm not sure if it's something she had considered but if it gives her greater flexibility to work within the same broad area, it would be a big plus!

af_thefragile

^I'm a med student and i did that course just to feed a hobby while i was doing pre-med. As it wasn't a very intensive year, i could take the time to do the course.
It was a 6 months long course. 2 evenings a week. Spent a lot of time working with softwares like Reason, Pro Tools, Cubase etc, working in a studio recording music on a analogue desk and some time in a Pro Tools HD studio.

For me just towards the end of the course, i got too busy with my full time course so i didn't give too much to follow up on the sound engineering course. I think a couple of guys did manage to make some sorta side career out of it but i don't think you can make a proper career out of such things.

Its a good course to get someone familiarised with how everything works and give some exposure to the industry. But as i mentioned nowdays the music industry is all about making contacts. Be you a musician or a sound engineer or a producer. Its more about how well you can make, manage and make use of contacts than putting your skills into it.

Like your sis says she wants to become a musician star and i'ld say she has more chances of making it by just working on her music skills and finding and making contacts in the industry (going the usual band way, write music, do gigs, gain a following...) than doing a music course or a sound engineering course and relying on it to take her somewhere.

If i was her, i'ld steer away from jumping into doing a full time music or sound engineering course and keep it as a side thing/hobby. I'ld instead look for a more substantial degree like maybe media, film, arts or something and not get too carried away by her teenage dreams.
She doesn't need to give up on her dream of becoming a music star. She can still have it and continue working on it while she's also studying for something that can secure her a more substantial future just incase the whole music thing doesn't work out.
I had a friend who dropped out of school to pursue a music degree of some sorts in a college forming a band n hoping to make it big n such. She ended up working in a game store while the whole course just ended up taking her nowhere after about 2 years into it.

Very few popular musicians who made it big went to a music college or a thing of that sorts. Most just picked up their instrument and paved their way to the top. So i'ld advise her the same. Look for another more substantial degree she can pursue and if her Leaving Cert scores are really not that great she can do her leaving cert again. Her music dreams can always stay with her but jumping into some little sound engineering or music degree, you can't always be sure about your future!

PaulBrewer

RoseBlossom wrote: »

Do you think that will stay the same in the next 10 years or so? i.e. as more graduates in semi-related disciplines appear from new courses do you think the balance will shift?

There's no evidence to suggest it will change much, in fact if it does change it will be in the opposite direction, I'd guess.

Music is getting more and more amateur as the old style route of getting into the recording scene (making tea, assistant engineer, engineer - then maybe Producer - effectively an apprenticeship ) is fading fast with the closure of major studios.

I'd guess most Music Producers, of either description, will be part time and their main crust will be earned from outside the music industry.

bedbugs

Er, I think if she has an interest in music tech, some formal introductions to the craft will do no harm whatsoever. She may even have a good time. What's to stop her getting an arts degree afterwards.?

She'll be what, 18? She has plenty of time to do other stuff. I definitely wouldn't consider education of any description, a waste of time.

bedbugs

I should add that rock and roll production is not the only aspect of music and sound production. There's music for film, theatre sound design, foley, TV Ads etc. It's a broad field.

11811

At the moment I'm studying a Music Technology degree course and in fairness it is very broad, covering a lot of multimedia subjects, film making, animation etc. as well as sound engineering, digital audio and music...
I choose this one as I'm really into sound engineering but I realise that the career prospects aren't the best, so with a broader course I think I'm opening up a few other areas I could get into.
Investigate which courses offer which subjects etc and perhaps one with a wider range of subjects might be an idea.

Mars Bar

Hey Cuddleworthy, what course are you doing?

11811

Hey Mars Bar, I'm doing a BA in Music Technology in IT Tralee.

Mars Bar

Oh right, I'm doing the one in LIT.
How are you finding it? Is it quite electronic-y and physics stuff in first year?

11811

mars bar wrote: »

Oh right, I'm doing the one in LIT.
How are you finding it? Is it quite electronic-y and physics stuff in first year?

Ah cool, its not too bad really, bit of physics of course but nothing too stressful, not much in the electronics department really, but its an elective in 2nd year I think. So far I'm enjoying it... exams starting on wednesday tho!:eek:

Mars Bar

Ugh nasty, we had ours before christmas. We only had 3 exams coz we do a lot of projects. I'm sure ye do a good few too. We had an "equip a studio with €20,000" and a recording one using tascams and a couple of more.

Sorry, going off topic here.:o

RealEstateKing

(1) People who do music technology courses are usually really, really into music technology instinctively before they even do the course. Is your sister one of the types of people who lock themselves in their room tinkering with gear and making tunes? In other words, a geek, like most of us? If not, performing arts or drama might be more up her street. It takes a certain sort of (unbalanced, deranged, and mostly male, dare I say it) mind to want to sit around tinkering with little black boxes all day.

(2) There are, as somebody above mentioned, almost no jobs in this area in Ireland - and jobs are decreasing in this area worldwide - this is a small and not very glamourous country. IMO sound engineering and Music tech is something you do for the love of it - unless you're already a wizard at it by the time your 16 - in which case you'll probably want to move to London, L.A. or Nashville.

Far be it from me to discourage somebody from studying something they have their heart set on - though it sounds like she doesnt - there is quite probably no other course she could do that would have less job-getting potential (apart from an Arts degree of course)

PaulBrewer

RealEstateKing wrote: »

(1)
Far be it from me to discourage somebody from studying something they have their heart set on - though it sounds like she doesnt - there is quite probably no other course she could do that would have less job-getting potential (apart from an Arts degree of course)

Well put REK !

RoseBlossom

Hi everyone,

Thanks for all your views! Hopefully she'll find her niche...or at least have some inkling of it by February 1st!