Viva la revolucion!!!

brianthebard

Today marks the fiftieth anniversary of the successful Cuban revolution!

http://www.monthlyreview.org/090101alarcon.php

Unfortunately the international downturn is also hitting Cubans hard, harder than ever. The US blockade remains in place and many people are impoverished. But in spite of those who oppose the revolution Cuba has built itself up in the past fifty years to become a country to be celebrated and a symbol of hope for so many in Latin America and across the world. Its standards of literary, education, culture and health on such a meagre budget puts this country to shame. Viva Cuba!

Biggins

Maybe we should all just move there, then again, we will be copying them soon as regards some conditions.

I look forwards to the next Irish revolution!

Viva !

dlofnep

Cuba abú!

AlmightyCushion

I remember someone saying before (might have been tallaght01) that Cuba's healthcare isn't as good as people believe.

brianthebard

AlmightyCushion wrote: »

I remember someone saying before (might have been tallaght01) that Cuba's healthcare isn't as good as people believe.

He must be using a different measure to just about every other possible survey or census that ranks it as number one or very nearly for a long long time now. In terms of GNP Cuba is still a third world country-but it has a lower infant mortality rate than the US, or Ireland (I think) or most Western nations.
you may have to bring your own towels and stuff but that's a small price to pay for the world class service.

dlofnep

AlmightyCushion wrote: »

I remember someone saying before (might have been tallaght01) that Cuba's healthcare isn't as good as people believe.

I'm sure tallaght01 has lived in Cuba, and spent time in their healthcare services to validate that claim. Cuba's healthcare system has been well documented and from all accounts, it's one of the world's best.

SimpleSam06

Sigh, the rentacrowd rides again.

The US embargo does not deny medicines and medical supplies to the Cuban people. As stipulated in Section 1705 of the Cuban Democracy Act of 1992, the U.S. Government routinely issues licenses for the sale of medicine and medical supplies to Cuba.

The U.S. has become the largest donor of humanitarian assistance to Cuba. Much of the humanitarian assistance by U.S. non-governmental organizations consists of medicines and medical equipment. The U.S. Government has licensed more than $150 million in humanitarian assistance to Cuba over the last four years. That is more than the total of worldwide foreign aid to Cuba during that period.

The Cuban Government has created a two-tiered medical system that funnels money into services for a privileged few, while depriving the health care system used by the vast majority of Cubans of adequate funding.

Following the loss of Soviet subsidies, Cuba developed special hospitals and set aside floors in others for exclusive use by foreigners who pay in hard currency. These facilities are well-equipped to provide their patients with quality modern care. Press reports indicate that during 1996 more than 7,000 "health tourists" paid Cuba $25 million for medical services.

As for claims Cubans live longer than Americans. It's true that a U.N. report claims that. But the United Nations didn't gather any data. The United Nations simply reports whatever the government in Cuba reports, so we have no objective way to know what the real statistics are.

Cuba claims it has low infant mortality, but doctors tell us that Cuban obstetricians abort a fetus when they think there might be a problemas many as 70-80 abortions a day. Some doctors tell us that if a baby dies within a few hours of birth, Cuban doctors don't count him or her as ever having lived.

Typical third world bollocks.

And more here.

Por: Prof. Julián Antonio Mone Borrego.*
Baracoa, Cuba- March 30, 2007. The general condition of hospitals that provide medical services strictly for the Cuban people are deplorable.

SANTA CLARA
Santa Clara's Provincial Hospital has been invaded by a plague of cockroaches that contaminate utensils, foods and medical material.
The poor elaboration of foods, along with the unsanitary conditions heaped up the critical conditions of this hospital.

CIEGO DE ÁVILA
Hospitals "Antonio Luaces Iraola" and the Hospital General Docente "Roberto Rodriguez", both located in the province of Ciego de Ávila, are lacking first aid medical tools, supplies and equipment such as anesthesia, needles, syringes and aerosol mouthpieces. Resulting in the delay of urgent surgical procedures and ultimately, forcing the suspension of all surgical procedures.

The waiting list for patients in need of medical procedures is endless. Improper protocol for sterilization of syringes and other hospital instruments along with the reuse of syringes and other medical tools without prior sterilization, expose hospital patients to contracting contagious diseases.

CAMAGÜEY
Provincial Hospitals "Manuel Artime Domenech”, “Amalia Simoni”, and "Ana Betancourt" a maternal and neonatal Hospital, in the province of Camagüey, lack the necessary resources for laboratory tests, including for Alpha-fetoprotein test, diabetes, thyroid and renal operation tests.

Irregularities and abuses against pregnant women pose serious mortal danger to mother and child during the pregnancy and during childbirth.

LAS TUNAS
In the provincial hospital “Ernesto Guevara" of Las Tunas, patients remain in a depressed and erosive atmosphere due to the prevailing poor health and unsanitary conditions of the health installation. The ceiling’s facility is filled with all kinds of animal’s nests.

HOLGUÍN
There are frequent and prolonged power blackouts in the hospital Juan Paz Camejo, located in the municipality of Sagua de Tánamo, forcing patients and doctors to use petroleum lamps where fumes coming out of these devices cause breathing disorders to patients.

The above brief synthesis is just a sample of the daily deterioration of the health care facilities that cater only to ordinary Cubans.

Added to the above mentioned calamities is the lack of ambulances, the frustration of doctors and paramedic personnel whose demands for supplies is ignored by authorities in the health care system toppled by a huge amount of paperwork, long shifts, poor diet and low wages exacerbated the daily misery of the medical staff working in these facilities.

Let us distinguish the other face of the Cuban medical myth, revealed by Viñales Tours; one of many Cuban entities dedicated to the deliberate establishment of a kind of "medical apartheid” that consists of the creation of a health tourism industry and according to their promoters, the Cuban Health Care System is based on the principle that health care in Cuba is “a right of the people”. They obviously forgot to clarify which kind of people they were referring to.

Upon the creation of this health tourism industry, the Cuban regime customized medical units exclusively for tourists in each of the hotels that are part of the above mentioned tourism chain, where emergency medical care is offered twenty four hours, seven days a week.

International pharmacies are promoted as having an array supply of both foreign and Cuban-manufactured medicines and high-tech medical equipment and services items not available to most Cubans. It would be interesting if the Cuban government is willing to provide records of what percentage of these products are available to the ordinary Cuban population.

If you people ever run into reality, I expect some sort of an implosion.

Biggins

dlofnep wrote: »

I'm sure tallaght01 has lived in Cuba, and spent time in their healthcare services to validate that claim. Cuba's healthcare system has been well documented and from all accounts, it's one of the world's best.

Yep, have to agree. Dlofnep is right.

From what I've read and learned over the years, they put America to shame with their abilities.
For just a glimpse of what the difference is, get a copy of "Sicko" by Michael Moore.
Its an eye-opener.

SimpleSam06

Biggins wrote: »

For just a glimpse of what the difference is, get a copy of "Sicko" by Michael Moore.
Its an eye-opener.

They showed him the top floor of the hospitals, reserved for the rich elites. Sigh.

brianthebard

SimpleSam06 wrote: »

Sigh, the rentacrowd rides again.

The US embargo does not deny medicines and medical supplies to the Cuban people. As stipulated in Section 1705 of the Cuban Democracy Act of 1992, the U.S. Government routinely issues licenses for the sale of medicine and medical supplies to Cuba.

The U.S. has become the largest donor of humanitarian assistance to Cuba. Much of the humanitarian assistance by U.S. non-governmental organizations consists of medicines and medical equipment. The U.S. Government has licensed more than $150 million in humanitarian assistance to Cuba over the last four years. That is more than the total of worldwide foreign aid to Cuba during that period.

The Cuban Government has created a two-tiered medical system that funnels money into services for a privileged few, while depriving the health care system used by the vast majority of Cubans of adequate funding.

Following the loss of Soviet subsidies, Cuba developed special hospitals and set aside floors in others for exclusive use by foreigners who pay in hard currency. These facilities are well-equipped to provide their patients with quality modern care. Press reports indicate that during 1996 more than 7,000 "health tourists" paid Cuba $25 million for medical services.

As for claims Cubans live longer than Americans. It's true that a U.N. report claims that. But the United Nations didn't gather any data. The United Nations simply reports whatever the government in Cuba reports, so we have no objective way to know what the real statistics are.

Cuba claims it has low infant mortality, but doctors tell us that Cuban obstetricians abort a fetus when they think there might be a problemas many as 70-80 abortions a day. Some doctors tell us that if a baby dies within a few hours of birth, Cuban doctors don't count him or her as ever having lived.

Typical third world bollocks.

And more here.


If you people ever run into reality, I expect some sort of an implosion.

A blog, that's your source? What sort of humanitarianism was the Bay of Pigs invasion? What about radio Marti?

SimpleSam06

brianthebard wrote: »

A blog, that's your source? What sort of humanitarianism was the Bay of Pigs invasion? What about radio Marti?

And once again, your shit is ruined lads. Have a good 2009.

Biggins

SimpleSam06 wrote: »

They showed him the top floor of the hospitals, reserved for the rich elites. Sigh.

You forgot to mention the other facts and scenes that were included but don't let that take away from your opinion! :rolleyes:

Time Magazine

Cuba, the world's best propaganda exercise. Viva la women who offer to sell themselves to you for food for their children.

http://www.marginalrevolution.com/marginalrevolution/2008/02/how-poor-does-c.html

SimpleSam06

Biggins wrote: »

You forgot to mention the other facts and scenes that were included but don't let that take away from your opinion! :rolleyes:

Yup, Cuba's healthcare system, so good that people are swimming away from it.

brianthebard

The Economist wrote: »

Cuba, the world's best propaganda exercise. Viva la women who offer to sell themselves to you for food for their children.

http://www.marginalrevolution.com/marginalrevolution/2008/02/how-poor-does-c.html

Another blog? Marvellous.

AlmightyCushion

brianthebard wrote: »

it has a lower infant mortality rate than the US, or Ireland (I think) or most Western nations

It has very high abortion rates though (over 30% I think) which may explain the lower infant mortality rates.

Biggins

SimpleSam06 wrote: »

Yup, Cuba's healthcare system, so good that people are swimming away from it.

O' yea. Thats THEE reason. I guess that's told and proven your point to us all!
(by the way, would you care to back that up with ex-Cuban statements, etc?)

I suppose it has nothing to do with poverty, no work, etc.
For the sake of this discussion, its the hospitals! Yea, nice one!

Time Magazine

brianthebard wrote: »

Another blog? Marvellous.

By a professor of economics. You want an academic reference for the amount of prostitution on the streets, seeing as first-hand accounts aren't enough?

Karoma

SimpleSam06 wrote: »

Yup, Cuba's healthcare system, so good that people are swimming away from it.

That's the only reason to leave/stay in a country. There are absolutely no other factors that would make people "swim away"?

SimpleSam06 wrote: »

And once again, your shit is ruined lads. Have a good 2009.

Keep posting that and it'll be one of the last things you post.

SimpleSam06

karoma wrote:

That's the only reason to leave/stay in a country. There are absolutely no other factors that would make people "swim away"?

The discussion was centred on Cuba's healthcare. If you would like to take it to other areas of the great social revolution, I'd be only too delighted.

karoma wrote:

Keep posting that and it'll be one of the last things you post.

Alright, so while we're on the topic, I'll object to several posters taking snipes at tallaght01 who is not involved in this discussion, and as far as I know isn't even aware of it.

Karoma

Poster:

SimpleSam06 wrote: »

The discussion was centred on Cuba's healthcare. If you would like to take it to other areas of the great social revolution, I'd be only too delighted.

You cited it as a reason on its own for people to swim away from it... I simply pointed out that it's absurd to cite one reason as the reason... *boggles* I won't bother.


Moderator:

Alright, so while we're on the topic, I'll object to several posters taking snipes at tallaght01 who is not involved in this discussion, and as far as I know isn't even aware of it.

It's not the topic. Are you his keeper? Send him a PM to point him to the thread if you're so concerned.
Report a post if its naughty, and stop bitching, whinging and dragging the thread off-topic.

galwayrush

50 years, wow, five times longer than we have had Bertie.and Co::rolleyes:
Imagine how much worse we would be after 50 years the way our health service is going.

PrivateEye

Never forget the hope of the revolution,
Never forgive the shame that followed.


The fact most people invovled with any real working class movements in Cuba actually FLED the country after Fidel* came to power says so much about the 'socialism' put in place. In fact, many anarchists and trade unionists went 'missing' in Cuba over the years, but sure that never got in the way of a t-shirt.

http://libcom.org/library/cuba-socialist-paradise-castro-fiefdom-wsm

I don't want to belittle the revolution itself however, I think the majority of participants had visions of something better than what they got to be honest, it'd be like attacking men who fought in the Easter rebellion for the failures of this state.

*Typed Che first, mistake. Films on my mind!

SimpleSam06

Karoma wrote: »

I won't bother.

Alrighty then.

Karoma wrote: »

Moderator:

It's not the topic. Are you his keeper? Send him a PM to point him to the thread if you're so concerned.

Sorry, I thought that sniping at posters who were not present was the reason the thunderdome was closed down for a period.

Karoma wrote: »

Report a post if its naughty, and stop bitching, whinging and dragging the thread off-topic.

That was actually a follow on from the Israeli protest thread, where the same posters were saying much the same things. I didn't report those posts because it was funnier to deal with them myself.

I know we're not meant to discuss mod stuff in the thread so I'll leave it there.

galwayrush wrote:

Imagine how much worse we would be after 50 years the way our health service is going.

As long as we aren't digging the cockroaches out of our dinners, I'd call that a win.

tallaght01

brianthebard wrote: »

He must be using a different measure to just about every other possible survey or census that ranks it as number one or very nearly for a long long time now. In terms of GNP Cuba is still a third world country-but it has a lower infant mortality rate than the US, or Ireland (I think) or most Western nations.
.

Cuba has higher infant mortality than Ireland, the UK and a raft of other devloped countries.

It has about twice the level of child mortality than Ireland, too.

Sadly, many Cuban babies are dying of infections that we could treat here.

Ireland performs better than Cuba in all of the main health indices.

People say Cuban health is the best in the world, because it's averages tend to be better than American averages.

Problem is you're using averages. Compare our average Cuban's health to a poor american, and it will be better (as will any nation's with any kind of a healthcare system).
Compare a Cuban's health to a middle class American's and it will fare much more poorly.

People compare other countries' healthcare systems with America's, but they often don't realise just what kind of appalling healthcare poor americans get.

But Cuba is most definitely not the best healthcare system in the world. Comapare it to Scandinavia, Japan etc.

They do very well for what they spend, though, and should be commended for that.

SimpleSam06 wrote: »

Yup, Cuba's healthcare system, so good that people are swimming away from it.

Karoma wrote: »

That's the only reason to leave/stay in a country. There are absolutely no other factors that would make people "swim away"?

"Health immigration" is very well established. We see lots of it in Ireland, particularly with regard to HIV. Many many Aficans are here because we treat their HIV, for example. At home, they would die within 5-10 years.

AlmightyCushion wrote: »

It has very high abortion rates though (over 30% I think) which may explain the lower infant mortality rates.

It's hard to know for sure, but there's probably something to it.

Cuba has been in the top 3 for abortion rates worldwide in a lot of studies. Though it's always hard to get reliable abortion stats.
But women in Cuba have traditionally been offered "menstrual regulation" if their period is 2 weeks late. This inolves having the contents of the uterus suctioned out, but without having a pregnancy test, so there's never a confirmation of pregnancy.
This could have an effect on infant mortality if worldwide trends fit Cuba....ie if the poorer have less access to contraception, have sex younger, and are more likely to have an unwanted pregnancy......then it might follow that abortion and menstrual regulation prevents a lot of lower socio-economic births. Birth to women in lower socio-econimic groups tend to be the sicker ones, so it could affect rates very easily.

SimpleSam06 wrote: »

Alright, so while we're on the topic, I'll object to several posters taking snipes at tallaght01 who is not involved in this discussion, and as far as I know isn't even aware of it.

Cheers man. I think reporting it may not be all that productive though

dlofnep

tallaght01 wrote: »

No need for knobbery. I've never been like that with you.

I wasn't responding to you, I was commenting on the notion that someone knows the ins and outs of Cuba so well - adding that I'd hope that they would have at least been there in order to take such a stance.

Apologies if it came across as knobbery.

*new year hug*

tallaght01

dlofnep wrote: »

I wasn't responding to you, I was commenting on the notion that someone knows the ins and outs of Cuba so well - adding that I'd hope that they would have at least been there in order to take such a stance.

Apologies if it came across as knobbery.

*new year hug*

Sincere apologies, man.

I'll edit it out of my post right now.

*hugs it out with dlofnep* :P

SimpleSam06

*hugs Karoma*
/runs

dlofnep

tallaght01 wrote: »

Sincere apologies, man.

I'll edit it out of my post right now.

*hugs it out with dlofnep* :P

Ah, no worries!

galwayrush

Welcome to the AH house of Love.............:P

tallaght01

dlofnep just dropped the hand!!!!!!! :P

FlutterinBantam

Probably the reason the Cuban health service is so 'good' is that the health professionals don't screw the country into the ground:cool:

tallaght01

FlutterinBantam wrote: »

Probably the reason the Cuban health service is so 'good' is that the health professionals don't screw the country into the ground:cool:

In fairness, I doubt the doctors in Cuba would have been able to fix your constipation either.

peasant

It is somewhat unfair to compare Cuba with advanced Western economies, whether it is the quality of the health service or the strength of its economy.

Do a comparison with its immediate neighbours however and the achievements become a bit clearer.

Best example:
This summer the Carribean was hit by three devastating hurricanes. On neighbouring Haiti somewhere between 600 - 800 people died and tens of thousands are still homeless today.

On Cuba the death toll was in the teens (due to a perfect evacuation plan) and almost all housing is habitable again. Of course this is the result of a totalitarian regime and a (forced) communal effort ...but hey ...it worked.

As for the health service: Compare it to the rest of the Carribean or Latin America and you will find that Cuba indeed does lead the tables.

tallaght01

peasant wrote: »

As for the health service: Compare it to the rest of the Carribean or Latin America and you will find that Cuba indeed does lead the tables.

It does indeed.

But the point that was being made (as is often made) is that Cuba has better health outcomes than rich developed nations.

dlofnep

I might fly off to Cuba to see if they can cure this hangover. I'll get back to you with the results.

peasant

dlofnep wrote: »

I might fly off to Cuba to see if they can cure this hangover. I'll get back to you with the results.

just go all inclusive ...you can drink it away

FlutterinBantam

tallaght01 wrote: »

In fairness, I doubt the doctors in Cuba would have been able to fix your constipation either.

Well.. that's one way of putting it.

Let us know when you are prepared to answer the question asked;)

tallaght01

FlutterinBantam wrote: »

Well.. that's one way of putting it.

Let us know when you are prepared to answer the question asked;)

What's the question?

I can't fix your constipation.

FlutterinBantam

And so we see why the HSE is in the position it's in........

Will not be developing this as dragging thread off topic..sorry;)

tallaght01

Feel free to stun us with our population health knowledge over on the biology+medicine forum if you're desperate to scratch that recurrent itch of yours.

Most of the docs over there will be happy to compare their productivity, efficiency, training, working hours and hourly pay rates with yours.

FlutterinBantam

Nah... don't deal with locums myself.

Ms Harney has been discussing those very topics with them for the last few yonks and gotten nowhere.
I'm only paying for them;), could get too heated and get banned

SimpleSam06

peasant wrote: »

Do a comparison with its immediate neighbours however and the achievements become a bit clearer.

According to the Pan American Health Organization, the Cuban Government currently devotes a smaller percentage of its budget for health care than such regional countries as Jamaica, Costa Rica, and the Dominican Republic.