Why do great wrestlers....

Kent Brockman

Why do great wrestlers (who have won most of their earlier fights by take-down, gnp or even lay-and-pray, and are training with top teams and in contention for titles etc due to their great wrestling) suddenly decide to try and be kickboxers against opposition whos main strength may not be wrestling?

Examples include Sean Sherk (v BJ)
Josh Koschek(sp??) v most recent opponents, CB Dollaway recently,
Even Matt Hamill and Randy to a certain extent (although it worked v Silva)
Rashad was being schooled by forrest until it went to ground with him on top.

Is it a mental thing where they need to prove they are not one dimentional or has anyone any other ideas?

cowzerp

Most wrestlers train boxing so they can dictate where the fight happens, try to win by ko and if thats not working look for a takedown and do some g n p.. kickoxing? not really.

Martin Walker

Because cross-training is the key to the evolution of MMA. Keep up or get left behind. The fighters youve mentioned dont just wrestle. Couture for example has Boxed for as long as hes wrestled.

Mikel

I would say it's ego.
Not necessarily in a negative way, just that they don't want to be considered 'boring wrestlers'
Also, maybe they consider themselves to be under rated standing up, so they want to show they can hold their own in that range.
Maybe there's sound financial reasons for it in that the UFC don't like 'one dimensional' fighters

Mikel

Martin Walker wrote: »

Because cross-training is the key to the evolution of MMA. Keep up or get left behind. The fighters youve mentioned dont just wrestle. Couture for example has Boxed for as long as hes wrestled.

I don't think that's what he means, cross training is a given.
What about guys who have the advantage in the wrestling range but choose to stand and trade rather than taking the higher percentage (for them) route of G&P
Apologies if I'm misinterpreting the OP

Kettle316

I might be because they are so successful at wrestling and it comes very natural to them that when it comes to the boxing/kickboxing, in there head, its gonna be a piece of piss!!

Also alot of fans think that fighters that lay n pray are really boring and wont support them, fighters with no fans are alot harder to market and are less likely to be getting the big pay cheques and big sponsership deals!! Alot of it can be mney on der minds!!

Kent Brockman

Mikel wrote: »

I don't think that's what he means, cross training is a given.
What about guys who have the advantage in the wrestling range but choose to stand and trade rather than taking the higher percentage (for them) route of G&P
Apologies if I'm misinterpreting the OP

You have got it right and maybe expressed it better than me!

Tito chose (I think) to stand with chuck, as did Randy the two times he was Ko'ed where both of these fighters would IMO had a better chance if they took it to the ground where they have had lots of success.
Also Matt hughes V GSP.

Maybe this is down to the opponent being too hard to take down (eg GSP)? but randy prooved he could do it v Chuck when he won.(Surely the same strategy should have been used again?)

Mikel

You have to differentiate though between choosing to stand and having to stand because you can't take him down.

Tito & randy vs Chuck imo are examples of Liddells excellent takedown defence and the dangers of shooting and getting knocked out.
I personally doubt that either of these guys wanted to stand with him

Martin Walker

Ah......... get you now.

Maybe then its a case of tactics.
Try to throw off the opponent by doing the exact opposite of what he expects you to do.
Maybe Randy thought, i know..... Chuck just thinks im gonna wrestle him so ill really put him off by boxing.
This of course didnt work but it did with Sylvia. Better thought out gameplan perhaps?

But also at the end of the day fighters that dont try new things eventually get found out. Like Chuck.

ginoginelli

Martin Walker wrote: »

Because cross-training is the key to the evolution of MMA. Keep up or get left behind. The fighters youve mentioned dont just wrestle. Couture for example has Boxed for as long as hes wrestled.

Ehh I dont think so..Couture was wrestling since he was a young lad. His first bit of boxing came much later in his life in the army when he boxed in a smoker.

"Tito chose (I think) to stand with chuck, as did Randy the two times he was Ko'ed where both of these fighters would IMO had a better chance if they took it to the ground where they have had lots of success.
Also Matt hughes V GSP.

Maybe this is down to the opponent being too hard to take down (eg GSP)? but randy prooved he could do it v Chuck when he won.(Surely the same strategy should have been used again?)"

Tito simply coudnt get chuck down in either of their fights, so he had no choice but to stand.

Randy got chuck down in their 3rd fight but couldnt keep him there.

I guess it comes down to a few things;

Marketability - Most american crowds prefer a stand up war - so the wrestlers are pandering to this.

Refs and stand ups - The refs are standing them up very quickly these days if the fighters arent progressing on the ground, so they find themsleves trading or trying to close the distance on the feet.

Time limits - The 5 min rounds usually encourage more action, so you dont see as much stalling in one position.

Mentality - Alot of wrestlers these days really believe they got handskills and like to trade strikes instead. eg kosckeck, stevenson.

I saw an interview with Frank Shamrock the other day were he said the next big evolution in mma in the next 10 years is going to be in the striking. I really hope so, as its the sloppiest aspect of the game at the moment..

Martin Walker

ginoginelli wrote: »

Ehh I dont think so..Couture was wrestling since he was a young lad. His first bit of boxing came much later in his life in the army when he boxed in a smoker.

I didnt mean that he started boxing on the same day as he started wrestling.

He started wrestling at the age of 12 in school as many Americans do. This is a form of Wrestling called "Folkstyle" which is pretty much exclusive to Schools in the US.

He then started Boxing at the age of 19 in the army here he also started doing Olympic Style Wrestling which he is famous for. These forms of Wrestling are "Greco-Roman" and "Freestyle" which are highly effective in MMA.

What i meant was that Boxing is not a new skill picked up by him. Hes started learning it around the same time that he started to learn the Greco that he uses in the Cage.

ginoginelli

Martin Walker wrote: »

I didnt mean that he started boxing on the same day as he started wrestling.

He started wrestling at the age of 12 in school as many Americans do. This is a form of Wrestling called "Folkstyle" which is pretty much exclusive to Schools in the US.

He then started Boxing at the age of 19 in the army here he also started doing Olympic Style Wrestling which he is famous for. These forms of Wrestling are "Greco-Roman" and "Freestyle" which are highly effective in MMA.

What i meant was that Boxing is not a new skill picked up by him. Hes started learning it around the same time that he started to learn the Greco that he uses in the Cage.

"Couture for example has Boxed for as long as hes wrestled."

Cool, I was just commenting on what I had read.

Dragan

Probably because they don't just train wrestling, they train stand up and the ground game as well and unless they pressure test it in a fight situation they will have no real idea as to where they actually are with it.

Karmafaerie

Sherk against Penn?

I'd hardly use that as an example.
Who in tehir right mind would choose to go to the ground with Penn, when you're fairly accomplished on your feet?!

ginoginelli

Karmafaerie wrote: »

Sherk against Penn?

I'd hardly use that as an example.
Who in tehir right mind would choose to go to the ground with Penn, when you're fairly accomplished on your feet?!

Sherk has never been submitted, and since he was not landing any meanigful strikes on the feet the entire fight, he would have had a better chance on the ground, where he could utilize his excellent top control. Sure there was always a chance bj could submit him or sweep him, but things couldnt have gone much worse than they were on the feet. Also while Bj has an excellent guard, he hasnt scored too many submissions from his back.

GSP and Hughes also found success against bj on the ground in the past. Anyway with bjs great boxing skills these days, I think GSP is going to want to bring their upcomming fight to the ground this time as well. GSP will probably have a similar gameplan as he had to fitch and serra, switching levels alot, going up and down, and trying to test bjs cardio.

Cant F***in wait for this fight!!!

Kent Brockman

I think the Sherk v Penn example is a good of what i'm talking about..

If Sherk was testing his stand-up, did he (or his corner) not realise that he was 2nd best by a long way after 2 full rounds?
At this stage it was time for plan B (which probably should have probably should have been his plan A).

Sherks record has only 3 losses and 0 by sub.

12 decision victories= alot of lay n' pray or Gnp without the finish and it just seems to me that it would have made more sense to try and take BJ down and dominate from top position, as has proved so successful for him in the past.
Anyway, a title fight v BJ Penn is probably not the ideal time to be testing something new?

Fozzy

Sherk tried at least two takedowns in that fight and BJ avoided both perfectly. Wasn't that the very first thing that Sherk tried? It probably demotivated him how well BJ avoided it. I'd say that standing up with BJ was his Plan B

Kent Brockman

Some more examples of this happened with UFC 95

Koscheks bread and butter has been his brilliant wrestling, the take down, dominate on the ground and g'np. Now that his stand-up has improved he seems to no longer bothered with his wrestling (didn't see the full fight v Alves but the bits I saw indicated he was beaten in a kickboxing match).

He got KO'd last night in what was probably a huge upset?

but does anyone think it would have been different if he exploded out of the blocks and went straight for the take down?

The majority of Joe 'Daddy' Stevensons wins have been by submission yet he wants to be a boxer

and gets out pointed without once trying to use his jitz (he is a black belt)

Utopia Parkway

Kent Brockman wrote: »

Some more examples of this happened with UFC 95

Koscheks bread and butter has been his brilliant wrestling, the take down, dominate on the ground and g'np. Now that his stand-up has improved he seems to no longer bothered with his wrestling (didn't see the full fight v Alves but the bits I saw indicated he was beaten in a kickboxing match).

He got KO'd last night in what was probably a huge upset?

but does anyone think it would have been different if he exploded out of the blocks and went straight for the take down?

The majority of Joe 'Daddy' Stevensons wins have been by submission yet he wants to be a boxer

and gets out pointed without once trying to use his jitz (he is a black belt)

Rogan said last night that Koscheck told him that 85% of his training these days is in striking. Seems crazy to me. Sure he had to improve his striking but his wrestling seems to have suffered for it and his wrestling is his greatest strength. It's like before he fought GSP he said he had done practically no wrestling in training leading up to the fight and hey presto GSP ends up outwrestling him in the actual fight.

As great a wrestler as he was if he doesn't practice it it's going to get rusty.

cagefan

Karmafaerie wrote: »

Sherk against Penn?

I'd hardly use that as an example.
Who in tehir right mind would choose to go to the ground with Penn, when you're fairly accomplished on your feet?!

GSP?:)

Maldini2706

Kent Brockman wrote: »

Some more examples of this happened with UFC 95

Koscheks bread and butter has been his brilliant wrestling, the take down, dominate on the ground and g'np. Now that his stand-up has improved he seems to no longer bothered with his wrestling (didn't see the full fight v Alves but the bits I saw indicated he was beaten in a kickboxing match).

He got KO'd last night in what was probably a huge upset?

but does anyone think it would have been different if he exploded out of the blocks and went straight for the take down?

The majority of Joe 'Daddy' Stevensons wins have been by submission yet he wants to be a boxer

and gets out pointed without once trying to use his jitz (he is a black belt)

In fairness to Koscheck and Stevenson, Kos was up against a multiple-time BJJ champ, on paper he had a huge advantage on the feet. Diego is a much better wrestler and better on the ground than Stevenson too.

Kos was dominating the stand up till he got caught.


Also looking at it from the reverse perspective, if you are a GREAT wrestler then you know its highly unlikely you will be taken down and thus u can be that bit more comfortable on the feet.

Kent Brockman

Maldini2706 wrote: »

In fairness to Koscheck and Stevenson, Kos was up against a multiple-time BJJ champ, on paper he had a huge advantage on the feet. Diego is a much better wrestler and better on the ground than Stevenson too.

Agreed. But from what I have seen even guys with great BJJ have problems when a very good wrestler gets on top with a good base. (Hughes and Sherk are two good examples of guys who have beaten opponents with better BJJ than them, by lay n pray and generally wearing them out while being able to avoid the subs)

Also did Stevenson (or his corner) not Know that he was losing the boxing match and he might as well try something different?

dunkamania

Agree with Neil's comment on great wrestlers been able to be aggressive with striking, as the risk of a takedown is low. There opponents are defending from both takedowns and strikes at the same time, which is alot harder. It leads to a much higher sucess rate for takedowns.