Ryanair v Aer Lingus as Employers

MadPup

Dear All,

With the recent takeover attempts of Aer Lingus by Ryanair, I've heard talk that in terms of an employer, Ryanair is considered to be undesirable by Aer Lingus employees, with someone mentioning "People leave Ryanair to work for Aer Lingus, but not vice versa".

I'm interested in understanding what the exactly the differences betweening working for the two are. I get the impression Ryanair is a ruthless, non unionised fast growth go getter while Aer Lingus is a more relaxed regional carrier.

Can anyone who works in either (or has worked for both) correct me if I'm wrong, or shed some more light on the subject.

Thanks.

WexCan

You're right in your assumptions. Ryanair cares little for its employees. Aer Lingus is heavily unionised and has a much more relaxed and friendly atmosphere. It's the difference between a small local company and a multinational corporation.

alpha2zulu

It's the difference between a small local company and a multinational corporation.

Thats a bit unfair, compareing MNC's to RYR gives MNC's a bad name:D
I know several multi nationals that go big on staff welfare and training.

Fabio

MadPup wrote: »

Dear All,

With the recent takeover attempts of Aer Lingus by Ryanair, I've heard talk that in terms of an employer, Ryanair is considered to be undesirable by Aer Lingus employees, with someone mentioning "People leave Ryanair to work for Aer Lingus, but not vice versa".

I'm interested in understanding what the exactly the differences betweening working for the two are. I get the impression Ryanair is a ruthless, non unionised fast growth go getter while Aer Lingus is a more relaxed regional carrier.

Can anyone who works in either (or has worked for both) correct me if I'm wrong, or shed some more light on the subject.

Thanks.

There's probably a bit more prestige in working for Aer Lingus as they are still seen as the national flag carrier and you can go to the US on the transatlantic flights also.

Working for Ryanair is seen by some people as working in the Burger King of the airline industry. I don't see Ryanair staff that way at all, but I'd say some people do.

Terrontress

Don't Ryanair flight and cabin crew earn more money than Aer Lingus although spend more time actually flying?

As regards cabin crew, both companies' crew have to flog drinks and crisps and do the safety demonstration.

There may be differences in terms and conditions of contract and unionisation but at the business end of things, i.e. on the plane, Ryanair crew seem to do the same job for more money.

wittymoniker

not true, aer lingus flight crew are better paid.

Terrontress

wittymoniker wrote: »

not true, aer lingus flight crew are better paid.

Apologies.

I was told by the wife of an EI FO some time ago that that was the case. Maybe with the exchange rate swing that it has gone back in the favour of the EI crew, give that they will be paid in Euro.

I tried to google it to see if I could find anything to support my assertion but all I found was Ryanair stating that their pay rates are better than many UK airlines.

In any case, EI pay must be fairly dire given the amount of striking that goes on over it so if FR is worse, it must be truly dreadful. Neither seems to have difficulty getting the recruits in though!

skybus

It depends what you call dire. To put it in perspective, the most junior Co Pilot in Aer Lingus based in the Republic of Ireland, who would be in their early twenties would have taken home about 100 thousand euros gross pay this year, before their additional pension contribution from the company. It may be the case in Ryanair, I'm not aware of their pay scales for recent recruits.

What I am aware of however is that there isn't the same yearly incremental payscale in Ryanair unlike Aer Lingus and most European airlines where there you get increments year on year for 25 years. These days alot of Ryanair pilots work for them as contractors, and receive payment based on the amount of work they do. Many do very well out of it financially with one of the main advantages being that they can pick and choose their time off.

It must also be considered however that the cost of training to be a pilot these days is very high. Nowadays airlines don't pay for you to train unlike years ago, so most self fund their training to get themselves in a postion to become employable.

The top scale in Aer Lingus from a pilots point of view runs close to three times the starting salary. So in terms of salary, they are still ranked amongst the best paid in Europe, if not the world. PPJN.com is a website that outlines the salary scales for pilots for most airlines around the world and is a good reference point.

wittymoniker

+1, there are some horror stories from the place.

diverdriver

The problem with Aer Lingus is the excess number of jobs there. A bit like the civil service, people with cosy little jobs and not much stress. Not true of all Aer Lingus employees but true of many jobs. Everyone in Ryanair earns their money.

Aer Lingus pilots are better paid right now but that won't last with the generation of pilots who will be a lot closer to Ryanair in pay. Also with the new deal in place Aer Lingus employees will be on less money from now on and quite different terms and conditions. The reality is that many of Ryanair's pilots don't even work for Ryanair but are in effect self employed contractors.

If Aer Lingus fails to compete with Ryanair, they will crash and burn eventually. No point in having a cosy, well paid job only to lose it. The unions are too powerful in Aer Lingus to the detriment of the airline. In Ryanair we have the opposite case, no unions at all.

There is one further difference. Ryanair is still taking people. Aer Lingus wants rid of them. So forget any idea of applying for a job.

skybus

Aer Lingus pilots are better paid right now but that won't last with the generation of pilots who will be a lot closer to Ryanair in pay. Also with the new deal in place Aer Lingus employees will be on less money from now on and quite different terms and conditions.

The new deal about new terms and conditions applies to all ground staff. Aer Lingus pilots were not involved in the recent restructuring program in Dublin/Cork and Shannon. Negotiations took place earlier in the year between the company and it's pilots to contribute a sum of money required by the company to cut costs. These were agreed on after negotiation and didn't affect income. The particulars are not relevant here in a public forum.

The new bases outside Ireland are on agreed local terms and conditions. These are still significantly better than the going rate, and have attracted a huge number of applications for limited jobs.

There is one further difference. Ryanair is still taking people. Aer Lingus wants rid of them. So forget any idea of applying for a job.

Aer Lingus are currently recruiting new pilots for it's new LGW base. As of a few days ago the HR department have been swamped with applications, with it running in the hundreds competing for each single job. A significant number of these are from Ryanair and various other competitors.

Ginger83

One of my partners relatives worked for Ryanair in engineering area as far as I know. He eventually walked out, said they couldnt give a monkeys toss about the staff and do what they want when they want and F the results. He is not doing anything at the moment but maintains even though he's unemployed he's happier to be away from them. I've some stories so I don't fly with them anymore.

bladeruner

Diverdriver,
I have read your posts regarding Ryanair on many topics and I think you are so biased that you should consider removing yourself from this argument.
You consistently make up Anti-Aer Lingus statements.

Just to correct some of your illusions.
Aer Lingus are hiring at the moment. Ryanair are forcing staff to take unpaid leave.
Aer Lingus pilots fly 900 hours a year.
I never flew more then about 700 a year in Ryanair.

and as for wages, if a company like Ryanair makes many multiples of the profit that companies like Aer Lingus make , then why are Ryanair pilots not paid more then other airlines.

Ryanair do have some seriously efficient work practices in place and I respect this but Diverdriver please try to keep a little bit of perspective.

FlutterinBantam

How many t/o and landings did you as opposed to EI average??

diverdriver

I'm not anti Aer Lingus, far from it. I would like it to survive. But it won't unless it changes radically. It doesn't have to change into a Ryanair to do that. I'm very well connected with both airlines and know a thing or two.

Basically if you think the current terms and conditions of the pilots in Aer Lingus will continue to apply to new hires into the future. Then you are sadly mistaken. If you are to believe comments made on the PPRuNe website the LGW Ts & Cs are not exactly above the industry average. That is true of most airlines now. It's not going to improve. The profession is gradually being downgraded. It's not something I like but that's the way it is.

I do know about hiring for Gatwick naturally, but that's Gatwick not the every base. Ryanair are still taking on trainees through the cadet system and are looking for Captains at all bases. Go to their website and see the other vacancies in ground jobs. Meanwhile Aer Lingus are seeking redundancies. Originally 1400. I believe 1600 applied. That seems to imply a lot of people would like to leave. Not only that it also implies they are well overstaffed.

I don't have any illusions, maybe you have though. I never discussed the hours flown. How many EI pilots fly 900 hours a year?

Aer Lingus is still better to work for. But if Paddy Power were taking bets on the survival chances of Aer Lingus and Ryanair. I think FR might be shorter odds.

diverdriver

Just to add to the above. My information is that 400 go today, monday 5th, voluntary redundancy. Aer Lingus of course.

Correct me if I'm wrong.

Tenger

diverdriver wrote: »

A)I'm very well connected with both airlines and know a thing or two.

B)Ryanair are still taking on trainees through the cadet system and are looking for Captains at all bases.

C)That seems to imply a lot of people would like to leave. Not only that it also implies they are well overstaffed.

D)How many EI pilots fly 900 hours a year?

Some very definite statements from Diverdriver:

Could you explain how you are 'close' to both airlines.

FR don't have a 'cadet system' They only take type rated pilots or make you pay for your type rating.....this is not a cadet program. EI used to have a very well respected cadet program until 2001/2.

The over subscribed redundancy offer can be explained by very attractive offers for older staff,those numbers include early retirement. EI staff do not neccesarily 'want' to leave. Recent actions by managment have been designed to push staff to leave so EI can then hire new staff on lower pay and conditions. EI want their curretn staff to take the redundancy package. ALso many dozens of staff applied for the package who will not actually take it.

And yes the first wave of redundancies starts today. If it suits you to leave now with cash in hand why wait until Feb 28th?

Quite a few EI pilots reach 900 hours per year. As cabin crew I am currently at 827 hours for the past 12 months. My hours are lessened by the dact I operate both short and long haul routes. (Long haul is less hours over the course of a year)

From what I've heard, the two companies are prime examples of the worst of Union and Management Excesses (Aer Lingus-too union, Ryanair-too management)

From what I've seen, they're both pretty similar. But then again I work for neither.

WexCan

Skybus, any word on CC recruitment for LGW? Looking to jump ship from a UK airline, imagine it will be a similar situation applications-wise because of XL etc. I remember BFS was very "oversubscribed" but was lucky to get an SCCM interview there, unfortunately couldn't move at the time.

Tenger

WexCan wrote: »

Skybus, any word on CC recruitment for LGW? ................................... I remember BFS was very "oversubscribed" but was lucky to get an SCCM interview there...........

Will try to get some info at work for you. Beware however...for the BFS base several people did the SCCM interview and were only offered the CCM position.

Not sure if LGW will follow the same pattern as the BFS recruitment

WexCan

To be honest, I'd take main crew anyway. If the terms are similar to BFS I know it won't make me a millionaire, especially if they only recruit me on to point 1 of the scale, but I'd happily sacrifice the extra money to switch.

The thing about LGW is that there will likely be significantly more qualified SCCM applicants than BFS. My three years wouldn't look nearly as impressive then.

diverdriver

Could you explain how you are 'close' to both airlines.

The product of a long time in aviation in Ireland, work wise, friend wise and relative wise. With both FR and EI pilots as friends and CC too. Although I never worked directly for Aer Lingus except in a subsidiary. I was even issued an EI identity card. As a customer working with a company on a daily basis you quickly learn who does their job and who doesn't. Believe me the daily frustrations of getting anything done soon colours your view of a company.

But I'm no genius, Ryanair's jobs are on the website and it's hardly a secret that EI is overstaffed in some areas.

Bob1979

Does anyone have an idea as to the schedule of terminations of various types of staff who have opted for the package at EI over the coming weeks and months?

I have a friend who works for EI and has applied for the redundancy package, but she doesn't seem to be able to get any information from HR about her immediate future with the company.

skybus

But I'm no genius, Ryanair's jobs are on the website and it's hardly a secret that EI is overstaffed in some areas.

I think you will find that alot of these so called ground jobs appear on the company website on a regular basis due to the lack of staff retention within the company. Some months ago on a social night out I had a conversation with a member of HR in Ryanair, I got the impression that staff retention within some areas of the company was a problem. It would certainly explain part of the reason why the same jobs are being advertised on a regular basis. However in their defence Ryanair are in the process of receiving a substancial number of new aircraft in the coming months so it would have to go without saying that new faces will be required in all area as the company expands. I just wonder where these aircraft will fit in if Ryanair fail to takeover Aer Lingus. But thats another discussion.

In relation to pilot recruitment, I have to ask the question. Does it not bother you if indeed you work for Ryanair that the company, through Brookfield, are still recruiting pilots on one hand, whilst on the other some of your colleagues are at home on forced unpaid leave. Personally I have a pool of friends in Ryanair, many of who today would be categorised as being relatively senior in their postions being forced to take unpaid leave. These are people who are and were in the company long before the concept of Brookfield was ever thought of and are now about to commence their leave of absence in the coming weeks. They, your colleagues are naturally not happy about it. I would be interested to know your opinion on this.

diverdriver

I don't work for Ryanair. Yes there is an issue with unpaid leave. My closest friend in Ryanair is philsophical about it but he tells me others are not. Meanwhile another friend, just started on a Brookfield contract is about to go on the line. It's certainly not an ideal situation.

I've been in that position myself, unpaid leave is not pleasant and unless you have a surplus of money to tide you over. You soon realise how close you are to being in trouble.

Meanwhile, I noticeon PPRuNe someone published the Ts & Cs for new hires in LGW. Definitely not on a par with Irish based pilots.

WexCan

EI LGW CC positions on EI website today, have my SCCM application in the post. Haven't a hope but worth a go. :-)

rosie...

I worked as a cabin crew member for Ryanair and it was the worst experience of my life. I was employed through a recruitment agency, had to pay almost 3000 euro for my training plus expenses wheras Aer Lingus pay you for training! Was not paid for home standby where I had to be at the airport fully groomed within an hour of getting a call so couldn't even go anywhere. Had some weeks with lots of flying and others with barely enough to keep afloat financially. Was treated very badly, a lot of crew are horrible to work with because they have no interest in their work because the company is so awful to work for. The company has no respect for it's employees. Had to pay nearly 300 quid for the awful smurf suit, Aer Lingus give you the uniform for free. Realised when I was working in the accounts department during my pregnancy that the cost price of the uniform is only about 100. You're not even paid during delays or any time that you're not in the air which makes the 16.65 wage per hour (Dub base) a LOT less attractive. Some months my wage only came to around 800 euro. New contracts have 3 months mandatory unpaid leave though people on my contract were required to take it also though the set time was not on the contract. My Aer Lingus info comes from a combo of their website and a friend who worked in Ryanair with me and was miserable and who is now working for Aer Lingus and is very happy. She says they treat you like a human being. Sounds very biased probably but I was treated worse than a dog.

LeftBase

rosie... wrote: »

I worked as a cabin crew member for Ryanair and it was the worst experience of my life. I was employed through a recruitment agency, had to pay almost 3000 euro for my training plus expenses wheras Aer Lingus pay you for training! Was not paid for home standby where I had to be at the airport fully groomed within an hour of getting a call so couldn't even go anywhere. Had some weeks with lots of flying and others with barely enough to keep afloat financially. Was treated very badly, a lot of crew are horrible to work with because they have no interest in their work because the company is so awful to work for. The company has no respect for it's employees. Had to pay nearly 300 quid for the awful smurf suit, Aer Lingus give you the uniform for free. Realised when I was working in the accounts department during my pregnancy that the cost price of the uniform is only about 100. You're not even paid during delays or any time that you're not in the air which makes the 16.65 wage per hour (Dub base) a LOT less attractive. Some months my wage only came to around 800 euro. New contracts have 3 months mandatory unpaid leave though people on my contract were required to take it also though the set time was not on the contract. My Aer Lingus info comes from a combo of their website and a friend who worked in Ryanair with me and was miserable and who is now working for Aer Lingus and is very happy. She says they treat you like a human being. Sounds very biased probably but I was treated worse than a dog.

Pilots enter Ryanair for their own reasons beyond wages and terms. They take it more for the jet hour currency. However anyone who signs up as cabin crew in Ryanair needs their head examined!

rosie...

LeftBase wrote: »

Pilots enter Ryanair for their own reasons beyond wages and terms. They take it more for the jet hour currency. However anyone who signs up as cabin crew in Ryanair needs their head examined!

You're not given the contract until you've already paid for your training and been shipped off to another country for it. Already feel like an idiot for being duped, no need to put salt on the wound.

andy_g

Thread from 2008 locked.