Forum structure

Slogger Jogger

Is there a particular reason for Athletics and Marathon/Triathlon being separate and, if so, is that reason still valid? I find that I go between them and there is little difference in what is posted between both. While there is obviously quite a bit of marathon stuff posted here, a scan of the recent threads would show that they are not all marathon related. Equally you are liable to find a marathon related thread on Athletics. It seems to me that an overall thread for running with perhaps another for Triathlon might be more appropriate? It could be just me , but I'll put it out there for discussion.

tunney

I don't think its so much a difference in events but rather a difference in attitudes that separates the two boards.

I think initially the regulars on Athletics got annoyed with the yearly Dublin City Marathon threads that would take over the boards for a couple of months and would generally only be contributed to by people doing their first, and only, marathon.

I still see it as a valid separation.

Running Bing

tunney wrote: »

I don't think its so much a difference in events but rather a difference in attitudes that separates the two boards.

I think initially the regulars on Athletics got annoyed with the yearly Dublin City Marathon threads that would take over the boards for a couple of months and would generally only be contributed to by people doing their first, and only, marathon.

I still see it as a valid separation.

So people new to running or doing their first marathon should'nt be encouraged to contribute to the athletics forum?

Sorry if I am way out of line here but it sounds to me like your saying "Athletics" for anybody serious about running and "mara/tri" for the chancers or "first timers"?


There's plenty of people on here now aiming for sub 3 hour marathons and a whole lot more running sub 3:30. Not only that but there are a lot of area's of mutual interest including workouts, cross country races and shorter road or long distance track events that most people run in addition to marathons.

I spend a lot of time on both forums and I would like to see them joined but I am sure there are some valid arguments as to why they should stay separate....the fact merging forums would attract less experienced runners to "athletics" is not one of them imo.

thirtyfoot

Babybing wrote: »

So people new to running or doing their first marathon should'nt be encouraged to contribute to the athletics forum?

Definetly not.

There have been a few threads on this topic and there is a perception that 'Athletics' looks after only the elite side of things. If it only did, we would have very little to talk about as we have only 16 elite athletes in this country (those that made Beijing). The dedicated guy (or gal) going for a sub 3:30 will have a lot of similarities with the track athlete striving for a place in the final at the National Seniors, believe it or not. I know both and while one's performance will be relatively superior to the other, the sacrifices, approach to training etc will be the same.

Athletics covers the following disciplines - cross-country, track and field, road running, ultra running, hill running. Covers a lot (thats the beauty of it).

Babybing wrote: »

Sorry if I am way out of line here but it sounds to me like your saying "Athletics" for anybody serious about running and "mara/tri" for the chancers or "first timers"?

Thats the way it seems to have developed. However, it shouldn't be. There was a thread started by cfitz regarding 3k training on Athletics and it was brilliant and had some great inputs which guys here would appreciate.

It seems that M&T is more 'recreational' runner. However, all contributors on athletics are either 'recreational' athletes or coaches or just athletics fans or diehards.

Babybing wrote: »

There's plenty of people on here now aiming for sub 3 hour marathons and a whole lot more running sub 3:30. Not only that but there are a lot of area's of mutual interest including workouts, cross country races and shorter road or long distance track events that most people run in addition to marathons.

I spend a lot of time on both forums and I would like to see them joined but I am sure there are some valid arguments as to why they should stay separate....the fact merging forums would attract less experienced runners to "athletics" is not one of them imo.

In the general scheme of things I would love to see more 'recreational' runners come into the athletics family (talking real world, not boards). There are so many people doing 10k's, marathons etc and it seems to be booming. Yet, competitive athletics is dying. I would love to see all the 'recreational' runners get involved and be parts of clubs and contribute to the sport and its many facets. Not just talking about raising membership or coaching but increasing numbers in championships in novice and intermediate etc.

Boards AC is a great example I think and while some may sneer at this I think its brilliant. I'm not a road runner but a trackster at a decent club level who also coaches a few potentially 'elite' athletes and yet the Boards AC idea would nearly excite me more about where it can go. European Athletics Assoc are looking into using Facebook as a means of both finding and then keeping athletes together in the future. BAC is cutting edge:D

Bit of a rant there but back to the original topic, as regards merging I think it works reasonably ok at the moment even if marathon/road does belong in Athletics (virtually and real world) no matter how much the triathlon diehards might think otherwise. I think there is enough traffic in both forums to keep as is even if it can be frustrating for those who hop between both.

--amadeus--

Personally I like the current structure but this keeps coming up and from regulars so it is clearly something that needs looking at.

As Tingle says we do - IRL as well as here - all nominally fall under the "athletics" umbrella. As Tunney says though there is a difference in attitude between a recreational runner / triathlete and the more serious athlete. Again speaking personally I would never call myself an "athlete" (a runner yes, but not an athlete) so there is a different way of thinking. And I always pegged teh Athletics forum as track and field and here as road running & multi-sport, maybe not in conception but in evolution.

As I see it the arguments for staying as we are are pretty much "not broke, don't fix". I also doubt that Tri has enough traffic on it's own to warrant a seperate forum (though MCOS has done a good job of building that up). There is also value in learning from each other in here - triatletes can advise runners on cross training for example. We may lose that in a merge & split.

However there is duplication and confusion under the current structure. There are threads in both locations that could go in either. The trouble is I can't see an easy resolution.

We could rename this as "Road running / (marathon?) / Multi Sport", mop up all the 5k and above road races and leave Athletics to concentrate on track and field?

Or we could create sub forums:

Athletics
--Road Racing (including marathons)
--MultiSport (Duathlon / Triathlon / Quadrathon)
--Track and field
--General and training(?)
--Training Logs


There would be some admin - we'd need the powers that be to approve the change and then need to sort out moderators, charters, etc. With so many sub-fora we'd probably also need a CMod, again needing approval. Not a huge amount of work but a fair bit to solve a problem that may not be such a big one.

Slogger Jogger

As you say its probably too much effort to justify overcoming what is probably more a slight nuisance than a real problem. Happy to continue to dip into both fora. Cheers.

donothoponpop

I think the forum structure is broke, and needs to be fixed. Any newbie must be very surprised to see Boards AC talking about 10k road races, XC, and even a beach race, under the Mara/Tri umbrella. I've lost count of the number of times IMRA races have been discussed by Mara/Tri posters, yet how many missed the excellent post on the Athletics forum, where one of Irelands top mountain runners discusses his training schedule?* Posts that are relevant to running are being missed, this is nonsense, and is due to the awkward separation of natural bedfellows. As Tingle says, athletics covers a lot: if you run, you should be posting in an athletics forum (of course field events go here too).

Practically, Tri would be belittled if it was a seperate forum: so either link it to Cycling, which is a slightly more natural partner than Marathoning, or preferably make it a subforum of Athletics. While I have little interest in Tri (and recognize that some triathletes must get bored reading yet another Dublin Marathon thread), I can see the value some of the Tri posters bring ( Tunney on nutrition, for instance), and would prefer to still have their posts "in arms reach", as it were.

I've dipped my feet in the coaching waters, and have seen how many people are willing to run if they get over the initial hurdle of "I can't do it". Witness the support been given by fellow posters on the Training Logs subforum (and here you will find many who have found their home, yet are looking to run a 10k- NOT a marathon or triathlon). There's a running booms around the corner in Ireland. Being more user-friendly will establish Board.ie as the place to go for info and news.

The thing that annoys me most about Irish Athletics is how fragmented it is- leaving aside the politics and BLE/AAI bull****, its so hard to find info on races from one source. I'm a runner from Wicklow, who runs some road races, and some hill races. To find out info on upcoming races, I look up IMRA, runireland, athletics wicklow, athletics ireland, fit4life, boards.ie, etc, and yet I still managed to run a hill in Meath two days before there was a Meath Championship hill race that I was unaware of because the local organizers hadn't informed the Irish Mountain Running Association (at least, it wasn't on their calendar. Granted, I now see it was on runireland). Boards.ie, as a social networking site, can be a leader in bringing information for runners together, under one roof, so lets start by doing the logical thing and tidying up the fora, because its a step towards bringing things that should be together, together.

*http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2055430899&page=3

Woddle

I agree with SJ & Donothoponpop, the only question is how do you do it.
Maybe
Athletics and General running with Triathlon, Boards AC and upcoming races as sub forums.
If some of the problem is lack of moderators, I gladly offer myself up for anything Boards AC related but I also think it is broke, alot of threads are duplicated and I often go between athletics and marathon/tri. I would however rather keep triathlon as I too like the input I get from tunney, hunnymonster and MCOS and others

--amadeus--

Because of the regularity that this is coming up and in light of the fact that it's reputable regulars who are complaining I think we need to take this seriously. There is now a conversation going on about how we could merge everything and make it work. From a moderator perspective I will say that this forum is HMs baby and whatever "moderator recommendations" are made they will be made by her - this is her house, I just help with the dusting from time to time

As a user though I have a real "careful what you wish for" worry about potentially putting us in with Athletics.

Firstly there is the fact that every (non-tri) conversation in here takes place in the context of marathons. Food, shoe and training conversations all have an invisible "when training for a marathon" in the 1st post. Merging makes us lose that and - to my mind - we then become just another running forum, identical to runnersworld or whoever. I don't think of myself as a runner anymore than someone who competes over 100m considers themselves a runner. They are a sprinter, I'm a marathon runner - subsets of running that require different mindsets to the middle distance runners. If we lose that marathon identity we lose a lot of what makes this forum interesting, from my perspective.

Second is the value of the advice in here. At the moment it is utterly top quality. I may not agree with all of it but I can't doubt the value of it. However marathon training is not the same as shorter distance training and you can't simply scale up the same ideas. For example I have heard well meaning (and talented) shorter distance runners give novice marathon runners advice like running beyond race distance in training to build stamina and to do the vast majority of your training at greater than race pace. Great advice for a 5k, lethal for a marathon. With a less clearly demarcated marathon area the potential for bad advice is increased (and goes in both directions - we could give woeful advice to shorter distance athletes).

Thirdly is the community we have here. There is a gaggle of maybe 40 posters who are regular or semi-regular on here. The community spirit is fantastic - welcoming and knowledgeable. Forums are not defined by names or charters but by members and our members are a great bunch. But marathons are a fairly small section of the running community - when we open this up then the marathon crowd will be swamped by shorter distance races. And a part of this could well be an influx of "mini-marathoners" and I'm not sure what we'll have in common.

Again as a user I'm not saying I'm totally against the idea - just that the hassle of switching from forum to forum isn't huge compared to the scale of the changes we will see in our community if we merge. And any structure we create will still have sub forums so it'll never all be in one place!

hunnymonster

Just back from a week in Boston (did more skating along the roads than running).
This is in no way "my" forum and I'm hpapy to go with any solution that keeps most people happy. If marathon and tri were to merge with athletics, how would
sports > athletics and triathlon
with sub fora of
-road races
-Boards AC
-track and field
-high performance
-triathlon
-marathon
-ultra
-trail
-adventure
(and any others I've forgotten) work as a good way to divide things out?

The biggest problem with a strong hierarchy (IMO) is that it tends to put people in boxes. I often read a thread in the main forum with a random title which I would not normally be interested in. I'm not sure I would find the same threads if I have to go down the levels to get there.

--amadeus--

Trouble with that is that such a fine separation is that some of the niche forums would be very quiet.

hunnymonster

very true.

donothoponpop

hunnymonster wrote: »

...
If marathon and tri were to merge with athletics, how would
sports > athletics and triathlon
with sub fora of
-road races
-Boards AC
-track and field
-high performance
-triathlon
-marathon
-ultra
-trail
-adventure
(and any others I've forgotten) work as a good way to divide things out?

The biggest problem with a strong hierarchy (IMO) is that it tends to put people in boxes. I often read a thread in the main forum with a random title which I would not normally be interested in. I'm not sure I would find the same threads if I have to go down the levels to get there.

Is there any need for subfora? Just straight threads, members choosing to read or ignore as they see fit, as in how things are in each forum currently.

On Amadeus' point of "better the devil you know", I tend to see any merge with athletics as adding to what we have, rather than challenging or taking away from it. Having said that, you're right to stress that what we have is very good, I think all will agree on that.

MCOS

hunnymonster wrote: »

Just back from a week in Boston (did more skating along the roads than running).
This is in no way "my" forum and I'm hpapy to go with any solution that keeps most people happy. If marathon and tri were to merge with athletics, how would
sports > athletics and triathlon
with sub fora of
-road races
-Boards AC
-track and field
-high performance
-triathlon
-marathon
-ultra
-trail
-adventure
(and any others I've forgotten) work as a good way to divide things out?

The biggest problem with a strong hierarchy (IMO) is that it tends to put people in boxes. I often read a thread in the main forum with a random title which I would not normally be interested in. I'm not sure I would find the same threads if I have to go down the levels to get there.

I like this kind of idea although it would need tidying and polishing (what would happen existing threads). I joined boards about 3 or 4 months ago and I feel that the reason for low traffic in these Fora is due to the narrow spectrum of interest. I've recently hung out in the cycling forum mostly as an observer and there is a lot more banter and general chit chat around the more serious topics. Perhaps the age profile of that Forum is younger?! Don't get me wrong I like the Marathon/Triathlon forum and the people that contribute to it. I just think that the interests of the frequent members is more defined. For this reason the sub fora idea may isolate many. I feel that the smaller communities may also benefit from like minded posters chatting more and opening more diverse discussions without the fear of little interest. BAC is a typical example of a community that needs its own spot. I think that because the new threads in the marathon/triathlon forum generate a moderate interest there are an awful lot more readers than posters. TBH the forum is a little serious in nature in hat newbies are addressed quickly (and positively I may add) by the experienced guys or over enthusiastic (like me ). There is not a lot of newbie newbie chat. To lift the traffic in this forum I think a strategy to focus on newbies chatting with each other needs focus and perhaps its the current structure that doesn't encourage that. Anyway enough waffle

Splitting the forum could work as long as the sub fora are listed with an easy view of each other. Are there stats in the background that could help with such a restructure? And what would happen training logs, do they stay grouped?

Just one more thing. One of the main difference between Marathon and Triathlon other than being different sports is the equipment factor. Triathletes are bound to generate more discussion around equipment than runners and for this reason I feel if the Triathlon probably suits an association with the cycling forum than the marathon forum.

Whatever happens I'll still be dropping in wherever the Marathon runners hang out. Dedicated, knowledgeable bunch they are:D

aburke

I'm on for merging them, and renaming it as "running, athletics and triathlon".

I'm not a fan of subforums [though "training logs" works well].

Cycling works well, IMO, as an example of a broad range of topics under a single forum.

At the very least, marathon/triathlon is woefully mistitled at the moment.
A quick glance suggest about 50% of the latest topics don't cover either triathlon or marathons - just running.
Rename it as 'running /marathon/ triathlon' or 'running / triathlon' at the least.

Later
Alan

robinph

Creating too many sub forums is a bad idea as you end up with too many places to go look for what you want to discus and then not enough traffic to stimulate further discussion. I do agree that the naming of Mara/ Tri is probably not all that accurate now for what we seem to have made it into but whilst I'm not overly interested in doing a triathlon myself I don't think that this forum is overrun by just a load of Tri posts or even just too many posts about other races that may be shorter than marathons.

A slight re-naming might be inorder between both the Athletics and Marathon/ Triathon to more closely represent what we are actually talking about in each forum, but we certainly don't want to end up with one forum for track, one for 5k's, one for 5 miles, one for 10k's, one for ... well you get the idea.

tunney

donothoponpop wrote: »

Is there any need for subfora? Just straight threads, members choosing to read or ignore as they see fit, as in how things are in each forum currently.

On Amadeus' point of "better the devil you know", I tend to see any merge with athletics as adding to what we have, rather than challenging or taking away from it. Having said that, you're right to stress that what we have is very good, I think all will agree on that.

Would definitely have to be some sub-fora, no offense but I cannot see the regular Board AC threads that tend to take over this forum would go down well on the athletics boards. Likewise triathlon threads seem to be more eqipment rather than training focused than I think would be appreciated by eveyone.

What about a name for this board that reflects the less serious approach to running?

jlang

tunney wrote: »

What about a name for this board that reflects the less serious approach to running?

Thumbs down to the jogging board!

tunney

jlang wrote: »

Thumbs down to the jogging board!

Wasn't suggesting that its called a jogging board. Thats all relative.

You run; people going a little slower than you are joggers; people going alot slower are walkers; people going faster are on drugs.

donothoponpop

Here's a perfect example of what needs to be fixed. A newbie today posts in athletics about a 5k race, correct forum, right?
http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2055451347

However, the 5k in question has been discussed 2 days earlier over on the Mara/Tri forum:
http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?threadid=2055450034

Not the way things should be.

baza1976

donothoponpop wrote: »

Here's a perfect example of what needs to be fixed. A newbie today posts in athletics about a 5k race, correct forum, right?
http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2055451347

However, the 5k in question has been discussed 2 days earlier over on the Mara/Tri forum:
http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?threadid=2055450034

Not the way things should be.

http://boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2055446238 another found in athletics...

This is a difficult issue... I can see everyones point of veiw on this and thats what getting me thinking.... (pain in my head)
I have a feeling that if a change is made to the structure some people will be happy and some won't..... do we change it again and again?? So IMO I thinking it should be left alone!!! Bearing in mind when this was up for a vote recently I voted for a change... but after reading this thread and looking at suggestions I have had a chnage of heart..:D
Except for the tri..dump it in cycle :rolleyes: lol

thirtyfoot

How about this:

Athletics/Running

--General
--Marathon - discussion on marathon only, as in marathon races, pacing, training. All shorter stuff in the main forum.
--Triathlon
--Training Logs

This way the 3rd secret of marathon training according to fatima can be kept within a marathon only forum and not dumbed down by the other non-marathoners:D

Triathlon still there as is training logs.

All other discussion on road races, track, cross, domestic, elite, international, diet, shoes, strength, flexibility,etc etc is kept in a main forum.

Simple to me. Keeps the original idea of the M&T intact in that there is a dedicated section thats marathon only as opposed to endurance.

Running Bing

Tingle wrote: »

How about this:

Athletics/Running

--General
--Marathon - discussion on marathon only, as in marathon races, pacing, training. All shorter stuff in the main forum.
--Triathlon
--Training Logs

Perfect solution imo.

I think that would suit all parties tbh.

robinph

I think that we would end up with a very busy "general" forum and two very quiet forums for marathon and tri though. There is a lot of non marathon or tri talk going on in this forum now, but is there enough talk of just those two other topics on their own throughout the year to justify them both being in a forum of their own?

Running Bing

robinph wrote: »

I think that we would end up with a very busy "general" forum and two very quiet forums for marathon and tri though. There is a lot of non marathon or tri talk going on in this forum now, but is there enough talk of just those two other topics on their own throughout the year to justify them both being in a forum of their own?

I think that could be a concern for the tri forum but I think the marathon forum would be fine. Bit of a lull now but once people turn their attention to 09 races (Paris/Cork/Longford/Berlin/Dublin) there will be plenty of activity.

I like the suggestion of pairing Tri with cycling as it seems a more natural link to me but how would the Tri and Cycling people feel about that?

Perhaps an Athletics forum with a "Long Distance" subforum comprising Marathon and Tri would be better?

Odysseus

Just on those points raised above where would people see ultras fitting in? Its starting to attract more people in Ireland and hopefully we will get some of them particpating here.

thirtyfoot

Odysseus wrote: »

Just on those points raised above where would people see ultras fitting in? Its starting to attract more people in Ireland and hopefully we will get some of them particpating here.

I would imagine general unless they want to talk about a specific marathon. There are fair few ultras affiliated with clubs already but as I'm sure you know its a small group of the hardcore.

Odysseus

Whilst I fully agree with you Tingle about ultra runners being a small group, though I wouldn't consider myself hardcore and to be fair a ultra section would be quite a slow forum. I dislike the idea of it being placed in the general section, an ultra is an ultra marathon after all, though there are considerable differences.

With saying that I think this discussion is a good one in that since this forum has started I have found I tend to forget about the athletics one.

Stupid_Private

Babybing wrote: »

I think that could be a concern for the tri forum but I think the marathon forum would be fine. Bit of a lull now but once people turn their attention to 09 races (Paris/Cork/Longford/Berlin/Dublin) there will be plenty of activity.

I say lob them all in together and see how it goes... Marathon certainly doesn't need its own sub forum. For Dublin last year there was one main thread, a few new ones were started but most people only used the Dublin thread. At the moment there's a spring marathons thread and in an ideal world that's what will be used solely for all the various marathons. Training advise for all road races from 10k to marathon is essentially the same - so why hide the marathon in its own little place?

There isn't that much activity on either the athletics or the marathon forums. By adding them together they could be a bit more lively. As was posted above it would prevent the same threads running concurrently in the two places.

What needs to be done with the Tri stuff is a whole other matter which I'm staying out of!

buck65

what about a Road running group including Mararthon?
Surely this is where most of the interest is?
Seperating the track/xcountry into another forum?
Triathon I don't really know about.

Hard Worker

buck65 wrote: »

what about a Road running group including Mararthon?
Surely this is where most of the interest is?
Seperating the track/xcountry into another forum?
Triathon I don't really know about.

That's sensible. A track & field / cross country forum, and a marathon / road running forum.
The track & field would be discussed mainly in the Summer and the cross country in the Winter. The marathon / road running one should be active all year round.

Racing Flat

I would suggest just putting the 2 current forums together, with training logs as a sub-forum and see how it goes. If after a month or so it seems like marathon or something else is taking over, this could then become a sub-forum or seperated back out if necessary. Neither forum as it stands is that busy (compared to soccer and the like) to warrant further division at the moment IMO.

MCOS

Racing Flat wrote: »

I would suggest just putting the 2 current forums together, with training logs as a sub-forum and see how it goes. If after a month or so it seems like marathon or something else is taking over, this could then become a sub-forum or seperated back out if necessary. Neither forum as it stands is that busy (compared to soccer and the like) to warrant further division at the moment IMO.

Why not :pac: Just stick the 2 of them together for a trial and see how it works out? If need be then create the sub fora

--amadeus--

I think that there are a couple of schools of thought starting to emerge, one for renaming the current forum one for merging. Personally I'm against a merge - I know that IRL we all fall under teh Athletics umbrella but I'm not sure that your average road / cross country / ultra / mountain runner or triathlete would see themselves as falling under an "Athletics" heading. I'll put it like this - I was on this site several months before this forum was created and it never occurred to me to read or post in Athletics.

But majority rules so if thats the way you want it...

This thread could meander for weeks like this with no resolution so I propose creating a new poll. We'll run it for a couple of weeks or until it falls off the 1st page (whichever is sooner). Whatever comes from that poll I suggest is teh final word on the subject (otherwise we'll be talking about this every few months and - at the end of teh day - the label on the tin is less important than what's in the tin!). To prevent duplicate discussion I'll lock this thread (once I work out how to put up a poll...)