IRELAND BECOMING AN ASSOCIATE EU MEMBER

tobias_wolf

if the conservatives are elected to government in britain it will be likely england will leave the european union as a full member and become an associate member, if ireland votes no again should we follow suit?

at the minute their is no process for a member state to leave the E.U, unless ireland actualy passes the Lisbon treaty and then it becomes part of the union, the members right to leave.

so maybe if we vote no again we should hold a third one on lisbon , all vote yes and then we actualy have the power to leave.

what do you's think?

would you not have something better to do on Christmas eve than discuss ridiciulous politics?

tobias_wolf

Deleted User wrote: »

would you not have something better to do on Christmas eve than discuss ridiciulous politics?

its christmas day, i should be asleep

evercloserunion

You can't say in the absence of a specific mechanism for leaving that a member state has no right to leave. Greenland has already left the EU if I recall correctly. If we decided we wanted to leave the EU tomorrow we would let the other member states know and chances are something would be worked out. But even if they were less than cooperative or we did not want to leave on the terms they laid out for us, we could simply hold a referendum to remove article 29 from our constitution. Once we do not recognize the supremacy and applicability of their laws, we are out of the Union whether they like it or not; what are they going to do, come over here and enforce their laws themselves?

Now, tat is not to say that Lisbon does not serve an extremely important function in this regard. By specifying the method by which a member state may withdraw and providing for negotiations between tat member state and the commission the Lisbon Treaty prevents the unholy mess that would be created by sudden unilateral withdrawal. For example, if we just withdrew tomorrow without prior negotiations, which EU laws would we chuck out and which would we apply? A substantial bulk of our national law is implemented on the foot of EU legislation and it would be absurd to discard all this law. Also, the political and economic fallout of such a move would be absolutely devastating. The Lisbon Treaty prevents prospective deserters from this mess. So it is very important. But, that is not to say that without Lisbon we would be unable to withdraw.

tobias_wolf

evercloserunion wrote: »

You can't say in the absence of a specific mechanism for leaving that a member state has no right to leave. Greenland has already left the EU if I recall correctly. If we decided we wanted to leave the EU tomorrow we would let the other member states know and chances are something would be worked out. But even if they were less than cooperative or we did not want to leave on the terms they laid out for us, we could simply hold a referendum to remove article 29 from our constitution. Once we do not recognize the supremacy and applicability of their laws, we are out of the Union whether they like it or not; what are they going to do, come over here and enforce their laws themselves?

Now, tat is not to say that Lisbon does not serve an extremely important function in this regard. By specifying the method by which a member state may withdraw and providing for negotiations between tat member state and the commission the Lisbon Treaty prevents the unholy mess that would be created by sudden unilateral withdrawal. For example, if we just withdrew tomorrow without prior negotiations, which EU laws would we chuck out and which would we apply? A substantial bulk of our national law is implemented on the foot of EU legislation and it would be absurd to discard all this law. Also, the political and economic fallout of such a move would be absolutely devastating. The Lisbon Treaty prevents prospective deserters from this mess. So it is very important. But, that is not to say that without Lisbon we would be unable to withdraw.

greenland is a bit of a strange one as it was a part of denmark that got its independence.

if england becomes an associate member under the conservatives , and we vote no again , dont you think the EU will then have somewhere they can sweep there little problem that is ireland to one side with england? in this special area of europe.

kevteljeur

I think the original premise of the OP is mistaken. The Conservatives in the UK protest loudly about the EU in the interests of gaining votes. But you'll never see them actually leave the EU, because too much is at stake for their country as a whole.

It just makes for good sound bites which gain votes from their more extreme constituents.

tobias_wolf

kevteljeur wrote: »

I think the original premise of the OP is mistaken. The Conservatives in the UK protest loudly about the EU in the interests of gaining votes. But you'll never see them actually leave the EU, because too much is at stake for their country as a whole.

It just makes for good sound bites which gain votes from their more extreme constituents.

they have said they plan renegotiating their terms of membership with the EU something i think their very serious about

kevteljeur

tobias_wolf wrote: »

they have said they plan renegotiating their terms of membership with the EU something i think their very serious about

Of course they've talked about it. They want it heard that they're going to play hardball which goes down well in the UK. But the UK as a state got a very good deal when they joined, and with the current economic climate they're not about to get a better one. Like Ireland, they need all the help and friends they can get right now; it doesn't matter much who is in power.

evercloserunion

Ae, the UK begged like nothing else to get into the EU because they knew how valuable it was, and they haven't forgotten. It would be political suicide to leave the EU, and the Tories are probably sick of that by now. Even if the population are Eurosceptic and don't mind leaving the EU, they might not be too pleased when your economy goes into th ****ter.

ShooterSF

I severely doubt they'd leave. Free trade along with their ability to sink their currency at their own discretion makes for great export business during the current climate.
As for Ireland I'd expect the same treatment as France or Holland got when they rejected the last one.

psicic

The premise is definitely flawed. Conservatives love to talk about being anti-Europe and pro-Britain in one sentence, but when/if they get into power next time around, it will suddenly be a case of 'making the best of the current situation in Europe' - a la Maggie Thatcher on EMS/EMU and negotiations on both the Single European Act and the Maastrict Treaties.

The Single Market may seem like a very 80s concept, but it is still so relevant to member's interests.

What I think is funny is that if, by some fluke, it got to the stage of a national government trying to negotiate a diluted membership of the EU for itself, the Commission would be most likely represented by a number of Irish negotiators...

partholon

irelands a full member of the EU.

theres NOTHING that can make us an associate member of it. the rest of em can op to leave and set up a new organisation but thats about it.

in regards to the brits they dont want to leave, they want to halt further intergration when it involves them . something thats spreading around europe.

its not the same thing as leaving.

Victor

tobias_wolf wrote: »

greenland is a bit of a strange one as it was a part of denmark that got its independence.

Greenland isn't independent - its merely a Danish territory that isn't in the EU. Just like Jersey is a Crown Dependency that isn't (and never was) in the EU.

That said there are ongoing and current rumblings about Greenland's independence - I imagine that more about mineral and fishing rights that anything else though.

WooPeeA

1. UK won't leave the EU because UKIP has much less than 10% support and won't have any power in the next decade, other parties don't want it.

2. I don't see any reason to do something just because Brits did the same.

JohnMc1

tobias_wolf wrote: »

if the conservatives are elected to government in britain it will be likely england will leave the european union as a full member and become an associate member, if ireland votes no again should we follow suit?

at the minute their is no process for a member state to leave the E.U, unless ireland actualy passes the Lisbon treaty and then it becomes part of the union, the members right to leave.

so maybe if we vote no again we should hold a third one on lisbon , all vote yes and then we actualy have the power to leave.

what do you's think?

Britain leaving the EU and Ireland leaving are two different things. The EU needs Britain more than Britain needs the EU. Sadly Ireland cannot say the same thing.

BenjAii

JohnMc1 wrote: »

Britain leaving the EU and Ireland leaving are two different things. The EU needs Britain more than Britain needs the EU. Sadly Ireland cannot say the same thing.

While that's certainly the case for us, on balance it is for the UK too. It's hard to see the UK prospering by choosing to isolate itself from it's major economic partners by leaving. I can't see any circumstances where that would help the UK.

It would be a huge boon for Ireland if they did though, their loss would be our gain, as the only English language country in the EU, it would certainly help a great deal with inward investment.

hatrickpatrick

How about we do the two distinct EU systems then, the economic and the political one? I support economic europe, I just don't want the EU to have more authority than our own democratically elected government has over internal affairs here.

ShooterSF

JohnMc1 wrote: »

Britain leaving the EU and Ireland leaving are two different things. The EU needs Britain more than Britain needs the EU. Sadly Ireland cannot say the same thing.

Other than size which is rather irrelevant what does Britain bring to the E.U Ireland doesn't?

Scofflaw

hatrickpatrick wrote: »

How about we do the two distinct EU systems then, the economic and the political one? I support economic europe, I just don't want the EU to have more authority than our own democratically elected government has over internal affairs here.

The economic Europe that apparently enjoys universal approbation requires the political Europe that many decry. The majority of all government regulation relates to trade and business, so a common market will inevitably mean that the majority of legislation is also common legislation. Common market standards in turn require common legislation on employment, environment, equality law etc, which we tend to think of as social law. There are very few areas of EU law which do not spring from the common market - the few that don't are areas of standard international cooperation, like people trafficking and foreign relations.

cordially,
Scofflaw

Scofflaw

ShooterSF wrote: »

Other than size which is rather irrelevant what does Britain bring to the E.U Ireland doesn't?

Variously, they're a major economic power, a major financial base, a net contributor, a linchpin in US-European relations and other Anglosphere relations (Australia, NZ, SA), a major military power, have extensive global contacts including the Commonwealth, and would be both inclined and able to meddle if they were outside the tent pissing in.

None of that is true of Ireland. What we have going for us is what the Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy said of Earth - "mostly harmless".

cordially,
Scofflaw

evercloserunion

hatrickpatrick wrote: »

How about we do the two distinct EU systems then, the economic and the political one? I support economic europe, I just don't want the EU to have more authority than our own democratically elected government has over internal affairs here.

http://www.politics.ie/blogs/evercloserunion/54-eu-political-entity.html

(That's a post I made elsewhere on the subject, better than reprinting it here)

BenjAii

hatrickpatrick wrote: »

I support economic europe, I just don't want the EU to have more authority than our own democratically elected government has over internal affairs here.

This is why so many fear the EU, but if you actually examine the EU it is somewhat of a myth. The EU only takes precedence over national governments in areas where all national governments have agreed pooling sovereignty makes better sense than going it alone.

The EU will always be the opposite of the US (strong Federal government/weak states) as it will always be made up of sovereign nations. The high tide mark of deepening integration was Jacques Delors in the 90's and I doubt the EU will ever be any more deeper integrated than it is now.

There is no force within the EU working for it, and 27 sovereign governments certainly aren't working towards it.

Scofflaw

BenjAii wrote: »

This is why so many fear the EU, but if you actually examine the EU it is somewhat of a myth. The EU only takes precedence over national governments in areas where all national governments have agreed pooling sovereignty makes better sense than going it alone.

The EU will always be the opposite of the US (strong Federal government/weak states) as it will always be made up of sovereign nations. The high tide mark of deepening integration was Jacques Delors in the 90's and I doubt the EU will ever be any more deeper integrated than it is now.

There is no force within the EU working for it, and 27 sovereign governments certainly aren't working towards it.

That's well put. The drive these days, indeed, is towards expansion rather than integration, and every new country added to the EU is another factor militating against deeper integration, if for no other reason than it has yet another way of doing things. The 6-member EU might have become so deeply integrated as to effectively be a superstate (although even that's doubtful), but a 27-member EU never will.

cordially,
Scofflaw