Epi LP Dropping Tune

cunnins4

Howdy folks,

Ever since I bought my Epiphone Les Paul it drops tune WAY too easily on the G and B strings, the others don't take too long after that. The machine heads just seem to be pieces of sh!te tbh, so I reckon they need upgrading.

I've already put a set of '57 classic pickups in it and it sounds great, so I reckon upgrading the machine heads'll have me a guitar to be proud of, so can anyone recommend me a decent set that will hold tune forever and ever and ever?

What money would I be talking?

I should've done this back when I bought the thing (3 years ago!:o) but I've been too lazy.

Might even change the wiring while I'm at it!:pac:

Cheers!

CianRyan

Grovers.
http://www.grotro.com/Homer2.html

Johnny Storm

My suggestion: have a read of the following before buying new tuners:-
http://www.fretnotguitarrepair.com/tuningprobs.htm

feylya

Daft question perhaps but have you learned how to tune properly? Tuning up to key for example?

CianRyan

And stretching strings so they dont de-tune.

But in my experience, Epi tuning forks (along with the rest of the guitar) are ussually a load of something im not aloud say on boards!

feylya

Look at the design of tuning pegs. They're designed to pull a string up to tune and tbh, they do it well. The majority of issues occur when people don't understand that strings get stuck in the nut, tune down to tune, don't stretch the strings or don't wrap the pegs properly.

Eoin Madsen

Epiphones almost always have problems with tuning and intonation for some reason.

Doctor J

Like Fey says, there is an art to tuning. Part of it involves putting the strings on the posts correctly, part of it is to ensure the nut slots are wide enough to allow free movement for the strings (usually Epis are crap in this regard) and part of it involves always tuning up to the note.

In all the years I've been playing I've only ever enountered on truly **** set of tuners which just wouldn't keep tension. Epis are above that level though. There is a lot you can do to improve your tuning other than new tuners... which proboaly won't work unless you address the other issues first.

This way has worked for me for almost 20 years now.

jrodd

Get a floyd rose and locking nuts put on.

Prob the easiest way around your problem tbh

cunnins4

feylya wrote: »

Daft question perhaps but have you learned how to tune properly? Tuning up to key for example?

Playing eight years-I certainly hope so!

CianRyan wrote: »

And stretching strings so they dont de-tune.

Used a lot of sets of strings in my time. It aint a stretching problem!

feylya wrote: »

Look at the design of tuning pegs. They're designed to pull a string up to tune and tbh, they do it well. The majority of issues occur when people don't understand that strings get stuck in the nut, tune down to tune, don't stretch the strings or don't wrap the pegs properly.

Definitely not nut binding, and all are wrapped properly. I suspected nut binding initially, but tried lighter gauge strings and put some graphite in the nut to help the strings move along easier, but no success here.

Doctor J wrote: »

Like Fey says, there is an art to tuning. Part of it involves putting the strings on the posts correctly, part of it is to ensure the nut slots are wide enough to allow free movement for the strings (usually Epis are crap in this regard) and part of it involves always tuning up to the note.

In all the years I've been playing I've only ever enountered on truly **** set of tuners which just wouldn't keep tension. Epis are above that level though. There is a lot you can do to improve your tuning other than new tuners... which proboaly won't work unless you address the other issues first.

This way has worked for me for almost 20 years now.

Cheers I'll have a look at that post anyways, always good to check I'm doing somehting right, but my tuning's fine (my other three guitars all tune fine!)

It's unique to the G and B strings-these pegs just feel different from the others too. As an experiment I'm gonna swap the offending ones around before I buy anything just to be sure.

If you felt these things as you adjust the tuning you'd see what I mean. They feel like you adjust the tension, but there's a bit of give in them, like they just give the tiniest little bit in the other direction immediately after. Not exactly loose, but feels different to the others.

Cheers for the advice lads.

cunnins4

Doctor J wrote: »

This way has worked for me for almost 20 years now.

Just read that there-good post. That's pretty much identical to how I string my guitars. I always tune up as well.

The little tricks come with time-I just picked them up as I went along.

Johnny Storm

If you really need new tuners and are going to hold onto that guitar for a while I'd recommend Sperzel locking tuners. They (obviously) lock the strings and they make it very quick and easy to replace strings.

spoonbadger

jrodd wrote: »

Get a floyd rose and locking nuts put on.

Prob the easiest way around your problem tbh

I hope you're joking. If you are, then that was excellently funny.

If not, then i think you better leave .

Red Sleeping Beauty

Johnny Storm wrote: »

My suggestion: have a read of the following before buying new tuners:-
http://www.fretnotguitarrepair.com/tuningprobs.htm

+1

Very rarely are Machine HEads the cause of tunning problems

Learn how to string a guitar properly, ie. lubricate the nut and saddles, wind the correct amount of string around the post and stretch the strings in thoroughly whilst tuning.

Also, if the nut isn't cut properly (you'll be getting a "ping" when you tune) that'll cause problems.

I string around the posts like this :

cunnins4

alan dunne 27 wrote: »

+1

Very rarely are Machine HEads the cause of tunning problems

Learn how to string a guitar properly, ie. lubricate the nut and saddles, wind the correct amount of string around the post and stretch the strings in thoroughly whilst tuning.

Also, if the nut isn't cut properly (you'll be getting a "ping" when you tune) that'll cause problems.

I string around the posts like this :

Since it's ALWAYS ALWAYS ALWAYS been unique to the G and B string on this guitar, and none of the other strings on my other guitars or the E,A,D or E strings on the LP ever drop tune, I reckon my stringing and tuning techniques are right. It's got to be a hardware problem.

I'll look into the nut more and try switching around the machine heads to see if I see anything improve.

Red Sleeping Beauty

Tuning problems are usually on the G and B strings as they're the strings you do a lot of bends with.

Take it to either a guitar shop that are good at doing setups or a guitar tech/luthier and have a proper setup done . Tell them your issues with tuning and then see how long it stays in tune. Or if you have a friend who's quite handy with guitar stuff to have a look at it.

You should have Grovers on your Epiphone. Grovers are the muts nuts! Page used to use them on his Gibsons I think. If you can wiggle the whole machine head around then maybe you've got a problem, you can tighten up the machine head, there's a screw on the back of the headstock on each machine head and also one of em, the button thing that you use to tune with . (if that makes sense ?)

When your stringed up and in tune , are the G and B strings wrapped tightly around the machine head ?

Are you other guitars Les Paul types ?

cunnins4

alan dunne 27 wrote: »

If you can wiggle the whole machine head around then maybe you've got a problem, you can tighten up the machine head, there's a screw on the back of the headstock on each machine head and also one of em, the button thing that you use to tune with . (if that makes sense ?)

When your stringed up and in tune , are the G and B strings wrapped tightly around the machine head ?

Are you other guitars Les Paul types ?

Now you're getting closer-yes, the G in particular is loose. I did try to tighten it up of course, but to no avail. All the others are nice and tight.

Yeah, the strings are nice and tight.

I missed the guitar shop today cos of work, so couldn't buy strings. I'll pick up a new set tomorrow, restring and swap the machine heads around.

As a quick experiment earlier I tuned up, hit the biggest bend I could on the 14th fret and bang-MILES out of tune. Did another huge bend and it went further out. I don't think the nut could be holding onto the string that much. It's going way out of tune. The B string holds it a bit better though.

The other guitars are a Yamaha F310 acoustic (best cheap acoustic ever), some other acoustic I've never heard of and a strat copy. The LP is the best guitar I have and I'm eager to make it better.

I'm a bit hesitant to bring it to a shop because frankly, the only shop I trusted was Musician and they're gone! I like Goodwins on Capel St. for customer service, but haven't had any experience with their technical services....

Cheers for the advice!

Red Sleeping Beauty

Well yeah if the machine head itself is loose and you can wiggle it around when the string is in tune then you more than likely have a problem with it, I dropped my Epi LP once and the G string tuner came loose... but I just glued a bit of a matctstick into the screw slots and then screwed it back in and then it was grand like...


The musician inc fellas are now out in the Red Cow estate working under the Xmusic name shop. The Musician Inc shop in Drury street opened there for a while before Xmas, they're planning on keepin half the shop running for strings and bits, there's a thread on it here...

cunnins4

Okay, I took the advice and had a much closer look at other areas that could be causing the problem:

The nut is fine. Definitely enough space for the strings to go through. I restrung the guitar and put some graphite in the nut groove to lubricate it.

After a bit of a closer look the tuners may well be okay. The play in them doesn't seem to be nearly as bad as I'd thought. they all seem roughly equal.

The saddle: I think I may have found the problem here. The saddle screw for adjusting the intonation was incredibly loose on the G string. There was at least 1mm of play in it. I swapped it with the bass string's screw and to compensate for the gap between the spacer and the saddle I wrapped a bit of sewing thread around it and the play was completely gone. I also did this to the screw on the B-string saddle as it was a bit loose too.

I didn't swap the machine heads because I wanted to rule the screw out as the problem.

So far so good. The string's are stretched. Gonna play it for a good while and see if it drops again.

If this has fixed it I'm gonna be over the moon. This has always wrecked my head about this guitar. It'll also have saved me the expense of new machine heads!

One thing that's got me though-aside from adjusting the intonation on the guitar I've never questioned the layout of the saddle, but I think it may be wrong! The screw heads face the pickups, and I've always thought this inconvenient, but never bothered checking. Then I googled les paul saddle screw and got these images:



Think it's the same guitar.

First thing I notice is the screws face the other way (proably not a big deal realistically). Second is the saddles are all facing the same way-mine are 3 one way, 3 the other. And thirdly, the base saddle is furthest from the nut and each saddle gets closer to the nut on mine, but on his, the G string goes back further from the nut again (if that makes any sense?).

Off to double check my intonation now!

cunnins4

Intonation's spot on. Not a bother. I probably don't need to change anything there so?

Cheers!

Red Sleeping Beauty

When you're intonating this is how the saddles should be spaced and then you fine tune by tuning your open string, then fretting the 12fret and tuning with the little screw.


Your Epi LP will have an older style bridge with a retaining wire. I hate these as the screws come loose and the retaining wire can rattle as well. I replaced the bridge on my Epi LP with a Tone Pros bridge.

I think it was one of these I put on it :
http://www.thomann.de/ie/tonepros_t3btc_tuneomatic.htm

It has two tiny little screws either end of it that basically "lock" it in so that it doesn't budge at all and it won't come off when you're changing your strings. It's a bit overkill like and you may get a slightly cheaper one but in the Nashville style so you don't need one of them pesky little retaining wires

cunnins4

alan dunne 27 wrote: »

When you're intonating this is how the saddles should be spaced and then you fine tune by tuning your open string, then fretting the 12fret and tuning with the little screw.


Your Epi LP will have an older style bridge with a retaining wire. I hate these as the screws come loose and the retaining wire can rattle as well. I replaced the bridge on my Epi LP with a Tone Pros bridge.

I think it was one of these I put on it :
http://www.thomann.de/ie/tonepros_t3btc_tuneomatic.htm

It has two tiny little screws either end of it that basically "lock" it in so that it doesn't budge at all and it won't come off when you're changing your strings. It's a bit overkill like and you may get a slightly cheaper one but in the Nashville style so you don't need one of them pesky little retaining wires

Thanks for that Alan, I think I'll stick one of those on it. I presume it locking onto the guitar gives better sustain too?

It's been a few days now and so far it hasn't dropped tune at all! Woohoo!:D

Thanks to all who gave advice, would've been a costly mistake to buy new machine heads! Just so annoyed that it was such a simple fix all along, and I never had an idea it was the saddle! Live and learn I guess!

Red Sleeping Beauty

Yeah the Tone Pros bridge people claim it adds sustain, I don't know about that really but it definately stops your bridge shaking around and you don't have one of them crap retaining wires