NCT fail - tester doesn't know why

dade

lads failed the scam test on Saturday morning. basically it failed for the dipped lights but the nice chap was unable to explain why. the sheet he gave me said incorrect assembly.

so when i asked him to explain he grunted don't know, wrong bulb maybe don't know. so i asked was it possible that the lights needed alignment he again grunted maybe don't know. here keys and walked off.

so anyway i checked the drivers manual for the car and the bulbs i have in are correct according to the book.

any thoughts apart from SGS need to get people that can actually communicate a problem to a driver so that he can actually get it fixed ?

AugustusMaximus

How could he fail you without knowing what he failed you for ?

ARGINITE

Have you gotten the lights aligned?
Most lightly the cause of the problem.

dade

AugustusMaximus wrote: »

How could he fail you without knowing what he failed you for ?

maybe he did but his brilliant linguistic skills wouldn't enable him to do it. I'd say that the machine that tests them failed it for what ever reason but he either doesn't understand what the yoke says on the screen or can't actually pass that on to the driver

ARGINITE wrote: »

Have you gotten the lights aligned?
Most lightly the cause of the problem.

i was thinking that may have been the problem but didn't want to go spending money on it if that wouldn't solve the problem.

any idea the ball park cost of an alignment in dublin?

MarkR

Well I suppose he's there to tell you what you failed on, not to diagnose the fault. He can make suggestions, but it would only be a suggestion.

dade

MarkR wrote: »

Well I suppose he's there to tell you what you failed on, not to diagnose the fault. He can make suggestions, but it would only be a suggestion.

but that's the thing he couldn't explain why it failed. when i asked why he said "don't know. Lights" he couldn't explain if it was simply alignment or a missing bulb or a blown bulb or the wrong color.

Darragh29

The NCT aren't obliged to know WHY your car failed the NCT. If your car fails for emissions, they often won't be able to tell you why. This isn't their job. They only have to tell you that your car failed their test criteria. It's up to you and your mechanic to work out the root cause and resolve the issue for a retest...

I've had people come to me with your issue and often it is because they have replaced aheadlamp bulb but not positioned/seated it correctly in the headlamp assembly. Other times the headlamp mounting is broken and this is the cause of the misalignment. Other times the glass is head damaged and this is the cause of the problem. Sometimes its the bulb.

dade

Darragh29 wrote: »

I've had people come to me with your issue and often it is because they have replaced aheadlamp bulb but not positioned/seated it correctly in the headlamp assembly. .

ok that could be the issue then, a bulb went a few months ago. of to get an alignment done so.

Darragh29

dade wrote: »

ok that could be the issue then, a bulb went a few months ago. of to get an alignment done so.

These bulbs can be tricky to get properly seated, it's probably just not sitting right on it's seat.

I've done this job countless times but I still check every headlamp bulb I change on the headlamp aligner just to be sure it is correctly positioned. What I suggest is replace the bulb and put the car up against a wall tonight. The patterns of light should look broadly the same against the wall if the two headlamp bulbs are properly seated. It's easy to do, no more than 5 minutes and a bit of fiddling...

The image I've attached called "headlamp-aim.gif" is for a left hand drive car, but this is the type of light pattern you are looking for up against your wall, except the image is back to front for cars in this country (the beam of light that goes up at an angle is on the left hand side of the image for Irish cars). The other image shows the way the light pattern should be for your vehicle....

dade

good man I'll have a bash over the next few nights

Darragh29

What you should see is something that roughly resembles the two semi-circular light patterns seen at figure 5 in the headlamp-alignment.jpg image OP. A horizontal beam of light that angles off up like in the pics...

daveharnett

AugustusMaximus wrote: »

How could he fail you without knowing what he failed you for ?

Computer says no NCT.

Wertz

Darragh29 wrote: »

The NCT aren't obliged to know WHY your car failed the NCT. If your car fails for emissions, they often won't be able to tell you why. This isn't their job.

Not really a good comparison...if your car fails under the emmisions tests it's because one or more of the three(?) values are high...they can physically show you this on the testing machine's read out. Now obviously they can't tell you why you have those high figures, only that they are high and that you've failed.

But with something like lights where it's almost purely a physical problem (rather than an abstract emmision figure that could be caused by one of a hundred factors relating to the engine etc) and easily put right, they should at least be able to tell you why the test has been failed, what parameter of the testing procedure was broken; degree of misallignment, wrong brightness of bulb or whatever...turning around and saying it's just failed is nonsense...with that abstract information in hand the OP doesn't know whther it's a 2 minute adjustment or a hundred quid's worth of garage time to put right.

Darragh29

Wertz wrote: »

Not really a good comparison...if your car fails under the emmisions tests it's because one or more of the three(?) values are high...they can physically show you this on the testing machine's read out. Now obviously they can't tell you why you have those high figures, only that they are high and that you've failed.

But with something like lights where it's almost purely a physical problem (rather than an abstract emmision figure that could be caused by one of a hundred factors relating to the engine etc) and easily put right, they should at least be able to tell you why the test has been failed, what parameter of the testing procedure was broken; degree of misallignment, wrong brightness of bulb or whatever...turning around and saying it's just failed is nonsense...with that abstract information in hand the OP doesn't know whther it's a 2 minute adjustment or a hundred quid's worth of garage time to put right.

Yes but their test is a non-invasive test and the whole NCT is based around the test being a non-invasive series of computerised tests and inspections. They don't/can't get into taking the back cover off the headlamp and fiddling with bulbs to see if they are correctly seated or not. There are sever reasons for this:

(1) If they did, then they would be increasing themselves to claims that they broke something in the process of inspecting it, and by Jesus would people claim.

(2) They simply don't have the time to get into it, because behind your car is another car waiting to be put through the test procedure.

(3) If they advise you to replace a particular part and for whatever reason, replacing that part did not resolve the issue on retest (because as per (1) and (2) above, they have not properly diagnosed the root cause problem), then they would have a queue of people looking to be compensated because they were given the incorrect information and suffered loss accordingly.

They have a pattern & density of light that they are looking for when they check for headlamp alignment and if the light pattern or density is below or outside the specified criteria, they have to fail you. They cannot usually tell you what the root cause of the problem is because they simply haven't investigated it because they are not allowed to.

dade

Wertz wrote: »

with that abstract information in hand the OP doesn't know whther it's a 2 minute adjustment or a hundred quid's worth of garage time to put right.

that's exactly why I'm kinda p'd off. if the guy had said it's alignment the fair enough likewise if he said too bright or not bright enough again fair enough both physical issues that i can go get fixed easily enough. but the sheet he gave me said Fail, and under the explanation it said wrong Assembly. be he grunted something about maybe being the wrong bulbs, but not knowing if that was the problem, when i asked was it possible they lights are out of alignment he said "maybe don't know". surely to got they can tell what the issue is i mean its a light for god sake, it either works correctly or it doesn't and if it doesn't then they should have someone there that can actually explain to the driver what the problem is related to. I don't mean a good old technical explanation on the lux rating for a bulb or what not just a simple your car has a lovely set of blue eyes, one blew east and one blue west. but to just grunt "i don't know why it failed" is a joke

another thing is maybe it's just me but the fecker parked the car in gear. what's with that?

Darragh29

Wertz wrote: »

Not really a good comparison...if your car fails under the emmisions tests it's because one or more of the three(?) values are high...they can physically show you this on the testing machine's read out. Now obviously they can't tell you why you have those high figures, only that they are high and that you've failed.

But with something like lights where it's almost purely a physical problem (rather than an abstract emmision figure that could be caused by one of a hundred factors relating to the engine etc) and easily put right, they should at least be able to tell you why the test has been failed, what parameter of the testing procedure was broken; degree of misallignment, wrong brightness of bulb or whatever...turning around and saying it's just failed is nonsense...with that abstract information in hand the OP doesn't know whther it's a 2 minute adjustment or a hundred quid's worth of garage time to put right.

When there is something wrong with headlamp alignment, instead of seeing a clear pattern, they just see a blob of light. Just to pick up your example, if it is a light intensity issue that is causing a fail, it could be a wiring problem, a bulb problem, a lens problem, a light reflector problem, a bad earth problem, a relay with bad connections problem, a battery problem, an alternator problem... They simply can't get into it...

Wertz

Darragh29 wrote: »

Yes but their test is a non-invasive test and the whole NCT is based around the test being a non-invasive series of computerised tests and inspections. They don't/can't get into taking the back cover off the headlamp and fiddling with bulbs to see if they are correctly seated or not. they would have a queue of people looking to be compensated because they were given the incorrect information and suffered loss accordingly.

Darragh I realise that and no-one is asking for them to act the mechanic and start routing with stuff on the car to see what's wrong (it's only 50 quid :pac: )...all they can tell you is that the machine has told them that it is wrong and isn't going to pass.
All I am saying is that WRT the headlight issue that pattern/allignment/brightness are tested on the lighting array...if that physically fails under one of the headings can't the testing machine at least tell you under which category and which sub category the fail has occured on?
You can't tell me that they pay tens of thousands for these rigs but they don't give you a technical read out that could be handed to the customer on the report sheet.
To get back to the emissions...they at least tell you what the lambda, carbon mono and hydrocarbons readings are at two engine speeds...the figures from that only tell you that you have failed, but under scrutiny from a trained mechanic, may reveal where the problem in the engine/exhaust system is occuring.
A similar set of figures or intrepretation thereof might help Joe Punter and his friendly headlight fixer get to the route of the problem, instead of adjusting ten things to fix one issue...

[edit] as for parking in gear, it's something some people do. Not me personally but I know loads who do. One for another thread.

Darragh29

Wertz wrote: »

Darragh I realise that and no-one is asking for them to act the mechanic and start routing with stuff on the car to see what's wrong (it's only 50 quid :pac: )...all they can tell you is that the machine has told them that it is wrong and isn't going to pass.
All I am saying is that WRT the headlight issue that pattern/allignment/brightness are tested on the lighting array...if that physically fails under one of the headings can't the testing machine at least tell you under which category and which sub category the fail has occured on?
You can't tell me that they pay tens of thousands for these rigs but they don't give you a technical read out that could be handed to the customer on the report sheet.
To get back to the emissions...they at least tell you what the lambda, carbon mono and hydrocarbons readings are at two engine speeds...the figures from that only tell you that you have failed, but under scrutiny from a trained mechanic, may reveal where the problem in the engine/exhaust system is occuring.
A similar set of figures or intrepretation thereof might help Joe Punter and his friendly headlight fixer get to the route of the problem, instead of adjusting ten things to fix one issue...

[edit] as for parking in gear, it's something some people do. Not me personally but I know loads who do. One for another thread.

But if they look for a light pattern and just see a blob, they can't really do the test, as in test for alignment. They can't say that the focus is too high or low, when they are just looking at a blob of light that has no definition to it. It's the same when the bulb is blown, you might say that it's just a blown bulb and usually it is, but it could be a wiring issue, a block connection issue, an earth issue, relay issue, switch issue, blah blah blah, either way, they can't give you a value for the alignment as in Alignment too low" or "Alignment too high"... Same for emissions. If they see a coolant leak, they'll end the test there and then 'cos last thing they want is to tell you've passed your emissions but your head gasket blew on their lift...