2000 Dell jobs under threat?

Villain

Breakingnews.ie repoting:

There are fears for 2,000 jobs in Limerick following fresh reports that computer firm Dell is scaling down its operations there.

It is understood the company is planning to lay off two-thirds of its 3,000-strong Limerick workforce in the New Year.

Dell wants to transfer manufacturing from its Raheen plant to Eastern Europe and Asia.

The Tánaiste Mary Coughlan and local Government Minister Willie O’Dea travelled to Texas this week to try to persuade Dell to abandon the plan.

Minister O'Dea said more should be known about the fate of the workers after Christmas.

“There is nothing specific about that yet but it will become clear very shortly I would imagine,” he said

I think anyone in the industry knows the Limerick plant is going to be scaled down a lot, Irish employees have been working in the new Plant in Poland training those who will replace their jobs.

Nolanger

Villain wrote: »

Irish employees have been working in the new Plant in Poland training those who will replace their jobs.

Same as Waterford Crystal did a few years back.

subway

thats a scary title, that is a complete lie at the minute.
nothing has been announced, but im sure any dell employees on here will appreciate the heart attack the week before christmas

jimmycrackcorm

subway wrote: »

thats a scary title, that is a complete lie at the minute.
nothing has been announced, but im sure any dell employees on here will appreciate the heart attack the week before christmas

I'm sure they know it's coming. They can't compete with Lodz.

cooperguy

subway wrote: »

thats a scary title, that is a complete lie at the minute.
nothing has been announced, but im sure any dell employees on here will appreciate the heart attack the week before christmas

I work in Dell (well did until recently). It wont give anybody a heart attack in there. Everybody in there knows the plant is going to be hugely scaled back or closed altogether. They already have huge sections of the factory closed already. All the reassurances given by politicians seem to be for the general public because nobody in there believes a word of it.

Blazer

jimmycrackcorm wrote: »

I'm sure they know it's coming. They can't compete with Lodz.

It's not that we can't complete with Lodz..it's that Dell no longer have orders to keep both plants going. Even Lodz is operating at only about 1/2 capacity due to reduced orders.
I'm beginning to think that Dell SMT are muppets...Dell are increasing their desktop/laptop prices as a time when money is scarce and people are trying to get the best deals they can get.
Out in currys/pc world i can get a similarly specced laptop for nearly €100 cheaper than Dell..and they're raising prices? bloody idiots.

ongarite

I think you will find thats the reason they are moving out of Ireland and into Poland and 3rd party manufacturers in Asia.
Dell are the only company left making their own PCs, all the other (cheaper) brands are made in Asia.

subway

cooperguy wrote: »

I work in Dell (well did until recently). It wont give anybody a heart attack in there. Everybody in there knows the plant is going to be hugely scaled back or closed altogether. They already have huge sections of the factory closed already. All the reassurances given by politicians seem to be for the general public because nobody in there believes a word of it.

my point is that the previos title of "2000 jobs to go at dell" indicated that 2000 people were going to be out of a job tomorrow.
this is not the case.
and trust me, whatever you might think, there are a lot of people there who wouldnt be happy to lose their jobs 4 days before christmas and would be seriously shocked if they did.

eamon234

Poland is also at risk so it's not strictly a case of just moving everything there - they will be outsourcing most of their manufacturing now.
I heard Banta Global who do a lot of manufacturing for them in Limerick announced huge job cuts this evening and it's not just the jobs in Dell that'll go it will also be the thousands of jobs indirectly related to the plant.

Villain

subway wrote: »

my point is that the previos title of "2000 jobs to go at dell" indicated that 2000 people were going to be out of a job tomorrow.
this is not the case.
and trust me, whatever you might think, there are a lot of people there who wouldnt be happy to lose their jobs 4 days before christmas and would be seriously shocked if they did.

I think you need to read the thread title again and anyone with any information knows and has known for some time the Dell operation here was going to be scaled down hugely. The thread title is correct IMO

subway

Villain wrote: »

I think you need to read the thread title again and anyone with any information knows and has known for some time the Dell operation here was going to be scaled down hugely. The thread title is correct IMO

it wasnt orginally, either you or a mod have changed it

nesf

Villain wrote: »

I think you need to read the thread title again and anyone with any information knows and has known for some time the Dell operation here was going to be scaled down hugely. The thread title is correct IMO

The thread title was edited to a more accurate representation of the facts by eth0_. Your original title for this thread was sensationalistic and inaccurate.

Villain

nesf wrote: »

The thread title was edited to a more accurate representation of the facts by eth0_. Your original title for this thread was sensationalistic and inaccurate.

I can't even remember what thread title was, what was it before it changed?

nesf

Villain wrote: »

I can't even remember what thread title was, what was it before it changed?

"2000 jobs to be lost at Dell" was your original title. It implies that the job cuts had been announced and the number given, which hasn't happened. Limerick will most likely see cuts but it's not public knowledge how big these cuts will be yet.

Villain

Ah right, well sadly I think the original title will become accurate in January when the details are made public.

AARRRGH

I think a bigger issue is the amount of jobs which exist as a result of Dell. You know, the local cafes, taxi company, spar, etc.

Blazer

AARRRGH wrote: »

I think a bigger issue is the amount of jobs which exist as a result of Dell. You know, the local cafes, taxi company, spar, etc.

A conservative estimate would be over 10,000 jobs indirectly linked to Dell.
Dell goes/ Banta goes/ Sercom goes/Flex goes/Group 4 security goes etc etc
Since most of the neighbouring estate Raheen is consisted mainly of rented houses for Dell workers..kiss them goodbye as well. So a lot of empty houses..landlords not able to fill them as no one's living in them, hence the potential impact on shops/clubs/clubs in Limerick.
Most forecasts predict a knockon of over 16,000 jobs lost in the Munster region when Dell goes.
And what do the Gov do? Go on fcukin holiday.:mad:
What good is it only sending Willie+Coughlan to Texas..the whole bloody Government should have been over there on their knees begging Mikey to stay.

AARRRGH

I know. They sent Willie O'Dea to sort it out! Seriously now, that guys a mongo who should be hidden from investors.

Declan30

I agree look at the 2 they sent over .Brian Cowen should have gone as well with them.
Limerick is finished when it happens and will not recover for a long time after this.

Villain

They could have send the whole Cabinet lads it wouldn't make any difference, Coughlan and O'Dea going was a PR exercise and a waste of money, decisions on Limerick were made a long time ago.

ongarite

Got to agree with Villain, sending anybody over is just a PR exercise to make face when Dell leave.
Dell's re-imaging and out-sourcing model is going ahead no matter what any government minister think they can do to stop it.

niceirishfella

and if Dell goes in Limerick, will intell go in leixlip? Then HP? and so on and so on? ....this country really is fooked.

Highsider

niceirishfella wrote: »

and if Dell goes in Limerick, will intell go in leixlip? Then HP? and so on and so on? ....this country really is fooked.

Think it's not beyond the realms of possiblity TBH. Bottom line is it's to expensive to do business here unfortunatly .

Villain

Well HP may be a concern but I think Intel should be around for a while, although their FAB 10 and Fab14 could close as the flash business isn't as profitable. Plus Intel are doing well with Government grants in R&D in Shannon

cooperguy

niceirishfella wrote: »

and if Dell goes in Limerick, will intell go in leixlip? Then HP? and so on and so on? ....this country really is fooked.

I dont know much about HP but doesnt alot of R+D happen in Intell? Its very different from Dell which is purely manufacturing and can be done by the lowest bidder

AARRRGH

Yeah, the Dell jobs are unskilled manufacturing work (i.e. anyone can do it) whereas a lot of the Intel jobs require a electronic engineering degree, etc.

yop

It a true shame as this will bring Limerick to its knees, as said though and I have heard it also from a source involved with the move that the decision was made 3 months ago. All our useless government is dong is lip service and its all PR.

At the end of the day they will have their big salaries, their cars, pension etc etc etc even if 50% of companies in Ireland close. Do the honestly give a FUK about the rest of us, no they dont, pointed by the fact they are throwing OUR money at the muppets who are at the root cause of the problems here.
Its almost back to gentry (government) v pesants(us) again. This country is in SERIOUS bother. Rant over, sorry

Tom Dunne

cooperguy wrote: »

I dont know much about HP but doesnt alot of R+D happen in Intell? Its very different from Dell which is purely manufacturing and can be done by the lowest bidder

No, Intel Leixlip is a pure manufacturing site, no R+D.

AARRRGH wrote: »

Yeah, the Dell jobs are unskilled manufacturing work (i.e. anyone can do it) whereas a lot of the Intel jobs require a electronic engineering degree, etc.

Most of the shift Fab jobs do not, they are usually technician grade, so are cert/diploma. The regular 9-5 jobs require all manner of degrees, not just electronic engineering.

Back to Limerick, it is going to be a huge blow to the region if Dell announces cuts.

niceirishfella

I hope the effects are minimal whatever happens.
I hate this kinda news for good, hardworking people.

Blazer

AARRRGH wrote: »

Yeah, the Dell jobs are unskilled manufacturing work (i.e. anyone can do it) whereas a lot of the Intel jobs require a electronic engineering degree, etc.

Just the manufacturing jobs are unskilled. Bout 50% of the workforce.
Engineers/IT are all Diploma/Degree/PhD and Masters qualified.

kayos

No matter who they send the Irish government will not be able to change Dell's decissions. If Dell did back down then they would have every government knocking on their door begging to keep the jobs in their country.

The direct jobs at risk are mainly unskilled Ireland is just too bloody expensive for this line of work.

The big worry really is the effect on Dell pulling production out of Ireland is the huge knock on effect to the economy as a whole, not just the local impact.

As for the idea that Limerick will not recover bla bla bla. Any one remember what happened a few years ago when Digital pulled from Galway and went to Scotland? Loads of new businesses started up and most are still operating and employing people to this day, some are very succesful.

Villain

Mathew Reilly wrote: »

Just the manufacturing jobs are unskilled. Bout 50% of the workforce.
Engineers/IT are all Diploma/Degree/PhD and Masters qualified.

How many of those jobs are still blue badges though?

Blazer

kayos wrote: »

As for the idea that Limerick will not recover bla bla bla. Any one remember what happened a few years ago when Digital pulled from Galway and went to Scotland? Loads of new businesses started up and most are still operating and employing people to this day, some are very succesful.

Not sure if you know this but there's a recession on at for at least another 2 years.
Won't be many businesses starting up.

kippy

kayos wrote: »

As for the idea that Limerick will not recover bla bla bla. Any one remember what happened a few years ago when Digital pulled from Galway and went to Scotland? Loads of new businesses started up and most are still operating and employing people to this day, some are very succesful.

A very fair point there.

Granted the job losses and assiciated peripheral job losses will knock the city in a big way but with a bit of luck some enterprising people, coupled with some incentives form the various state bodies responsible for this sort of thing could rise from the ashes to form other companies which may or may not be related to the original company that left the place.
I know the experience of working at any level in an organisation such as Dell was invaluable to me and if I ever felt the need to start a company the skills and methods used and seen in there would be a great help.
If there leaving leads to more indigenous industry then at least it has one good thing going for it.

The writing has been on the wall with Dell for the past few years, now is just a good time to use the economic downturn as an excuse.

kippy

Mathew Reilly wrote: »

Not sure if you know this but there's a recession on at for at least another 2 years.
Won't be many businesses starting up.

I think when digital folded the place was in a similiar mess, maybe not so bad, but people had to do something.

kayos

Mathew Reilly wrote: »

Not sure if you know this but there's a recession on at for at least another 2 years.
Won't be many businesses starting up.

The exact year they up'd and left escapes me but it was the 80's which funny enough happend to be recessionary aswell. It might have been the tail end of it but it was not mid boom or start of boom times.

If there are people with the idea's and mindsets and they are backed up by the government agencies and banks there is nothing stopping new ventures starting up. In fact if they are to recruit out of those that have been let go by dell who have sod all choice in jobs salary's could be kept lower and help these new business in the first few years. Riding out a recession is gonna be hard but with good government (we could be screwed there), hard working and supportive staff new business could easily take off.

As an example there is a big fund there for R&D work also any companies formed after 01/01/09 will have not have corporation tax for 3 years (raging about this as I'm in my first year of business but will have it for the next 3 years), if a new company was to start up in R&D taking on any engineers/skilled staff from dell they could very easily get a good running start to making a long lasting company.

mikemac

Villain wrote: »

How many of those jobs are still blue badges though?

Is this some reference to the uniform in Intel?

Villain

mikemac wrote: »

Is this some reference to the uniform in Intel?

Sorry, Blue Badges means direct Intel employees as opposed to Green Badges which are outsourced Contactor jobs.

Villain

Sadly the article I quoted was almost correct 1,900 jobs are gone by next year

RangeR

Indeedy.

Villain

Minister O'Dea stated there is a good chance of getting 750 R&D jobs back from Dell, this is due to a loophole in EU law really, the same thing happened in Intel, the government had commited €250 million to Intel towards FAB24-2 but the EU ruled it was not allowed to give it as it was against EU competition laws so the Government gave Intel the money through R&D in Shannon hence the upgrade and expansion of Intel's Shannon site.

So it seems there is a chance the same thing will happen with Dell so at least 750 jobs might be created, although I'd imagine the Government will have to pay a pretty penny for it and these jobs won't give the same spin offs as manufactoring jobs.

niceirishfella

Villain wrote: »

Minister O'Dea stated there is a good chance of getting 750 R&D jobs back from Dell, blah, blah blah.

yep, a "good chance" does'nt pay the mortgage. Nothing concrete from this Government I can tell you - It's like were all slowing sinking into quicksand!

Villain

Well I'd imagine once the Government agrees to the investment the jobs will arrive but its as good as buying jobs really

doolox

Hi,
I started my first "official" job in Digital in 1979 after working part-time for my father as a milk roundsman for 3 years after leaving cert in school.
At school I thought I would inherit the Earth, in those days very little was done to REALLY prepare people for the big bad world outside and it was assumed that once you got a job it was for life, countless jobs were handed down through the generations and change was slow.
On joining Digital everyone thought this would last forever but they closed in 1993 and 780 jobs were gone. At the time everyone thought Galway was finished but they have been replaced by 2-3000 medical device jobs etc mostly requiring honours degrees in science and Chemistry etc. I would guess that although the jobs have been replaced the people are different and the original workers had to change course and retrain for new careers.
Because I was not getting any job offers I went back to RTC Galway ( now GMIT and did Electronics Diploma to improve my job getting chances.
At that time I was put off the dole because I returned to college and therefore lost about IRL3,500, I think the government have reduced the jobless time down to 6 months in order to allow you to retrain/ re-educate without losing your benefit but at that time the limit was 1 year.
After the diploma I got 2 job offers, one in Apple in Cork, now closed, and one in Intel's board repair plant which is also now closed.
After 7 years in Intels board repair plant I transferred to Fab operations and stuck it for a further 7 years after which I applied for redundancy and got out of Intel altogether. I found Intel very demanding and exhausting to work for and not good for the self esteem so important to the health of the individual.

A few thoughts come to mind.
1. Keep heart and hold fast. The bigger a job loss the more people will be working on it to find replacements and get employment for the affected area.
This happened in Galway with Digital replaced by the likes of Boston Scientific and Medtronics etc. More and better jobs than were lost.
2 Retrain and re-educate, get government help to do so if necessary.People with families can get help with mortgages so medium term finances should not be a problem. Big problem is personal (credit card) debt which they will not support. Be prepared for big lifestyle changes if you subscribed to the jobs for life, big car, big image ethos which has wrecked Ireland in the recent past........
3.Get the support of your wife, children and extended family in re-arranging your money and time commitments to meet your future situation. Do it now in a calm logical manner and forget about the mistaken ideas of the past. I have been jobless for the past 13 months but I am doing a FAS course at the moment. If the job hunt proves fruitless I will keep adding to that course in order to increase my chances of getting a job. I have chosen and will continue to chose work-related highly focussed types of courses in Science or engineering as they give the best possible chance of getting a job.
I have been very heartened by the support I got from all people close to me.
4. Do not take the stuff spouted on the newspapers and media seriously. Journalists love to sensationalise the bad stuff that happens in our lives but ignore the positives Ireland has going for it. When the recovery arrives we will be ready for it as a nation and stronger from this setback.
5. Do not take the stuff spouted by some middle management seriously. Know your own value and worth in your next job and be happy with it. Find out what the company ethos or culture is in your new job and develop yourself to survive it and adjust to it. ( I found the change from Digital to Intel a big and unpleasant shock ).
6. If you have secured a new job through retraining and re-education keep up the momentum and be prepared, through planned development and improvement, for the next down-turn.......Know your sector and its trends and keep up to date in generic, transferable skills. Keep the company-specific stuff on the backburner, enough to keep you out of trouble etc but concentrate on the transferable skills when possible.
7. Thinking of self-employment? Get good at debt collection and chasing money, you'll spent up to half your time at it and also no holidays and longer working hours but it can be done. Be flexible and street-wise and shrewd and you should be OK, its not for evrybody.
8. Keep an eye on your time horizons, Its no good embarking on a 3-4 year fulltime course if your remaining working life before retirement is short. People over 50 are in a tricky situation in this respect. Those over 55 are in a really tight bind if their debts are high and their employment prospects are low.
9. Finally do not be content with the first position that you may secure if it happens that the company approach is too far removed from your own approach to things. Jobs are not lifetime commitments and can be changed. Pick your moment carefully and change jobs until you are reasonably happy.
As the Unions used to say, "Know your rights" and keep your own counsel. Do not listen to negative stuff from other employees but also do not take the management line too seriously regarding more and more work for less money etc. Be aware not only of the message but also the persons motive for saying it.

CatFromHue

i like doolox's post above its positive and helpfull unlike the media at the moment which is very much the end of world attitude.

In Limerick there is L.I.T. and U.L. which are pretty good instuitions if people want to upskill or whatever.

I dont think the 1900 job cuts are immediate but may actually be over a years period.

Willie o' dea did say on the news that there was 750 jobs ear marked for the midwest area, which hopefully is true.

just my 2 cents

Climate Expert

Mass upskilling is a terrible idea.

People pissing about in college for years when they could be working in some menial job. its not popular to say but the vast majority of people should be working in menial factory jobs to suppport the rest of the economy. You can't have the whole country working in big engineering or r&d jobs.
Education isn't the answer to everything.

doolox

Unfortunately, all the menial jobs have gone to China, India, the 3rd world and Eastern Europe and Western Europe is left with no choice but to upskill its workforce in order to stay afloat and solvent economically.
You refer to "pissing about" in universities, I take that to mean people doing nebulous courses in subjects with no economic basis or hope of return to the general economy.
My reply said to do focussed and relevant, work- related courses. I also warned about time horizons as it is no good a 55 year old facing retirement in less than 10 yrs starting out on a 4 yr course as the time to get a return on it is too short.
Ireland also needs to look at its cost base. People in secure non competitive employment with strong union based bargaining power have contributed to the demise of DELL and all the other internationally based jobs in Ireland by rising the cost of living here beyond what can be sustained by the general working population.
The housing price crash and current slow down in the economy generally is a sign of this.
Up to now we have sourced our menial jobs from temporary foreign workers willing to keep their living costs low by sharing housing and avoiding having families here until they return to their low-cost home lands. This happens in the middle East with the Philipinos and also in the US with people from Central/South america and is the way menial jobs will be filled in the future.
A person wanting to raise a family and live beyond survival needs to educate himself beyond menial labour in order to do so in this country.
History can show you several examples of people who had no family and a very substandard quality of life because of their level of employment, the bachelor smallholding farmers of the west of Ireland and the navvies and emigrant building workers of Britain come to mind.
For most people education and retraining is the only sensible choice. It can be done part-time in conjunction with some menial labour on a temporary basis only.

tHE vAGGABOND

Minister O'Dea stated there is a good chance of getting 750 R&D jobs back from Dell,

It seems half the countries on the planet are competing for these jobs, and the decision on them wont be made by Dell for well over a year..

I think its terrible for politicians to get peoples hopes up about this, just to get their names in the paper..

doolox

I was reading in the paper that the packages accruing to DELL employees have been capped at 1 year, no allowance being made for overtime or shift allowance.
In comparison last years Intel package, which I was lucky to be part of, capped at 2 years, included allowances for shift allowances and overtime applied to all years of service.
A big difference.
Intel may have been demanding to work for but it looks as if they were right on with the money even when the chips were down.
This may be attribuatble to the fact that Texas is a very strong "right to work" state which translates into low unemployment benefits and minimal worker rights protection and job security.
California, where Intel is based, would be tending towards more worker protection etc.