Engine just wont start

johnplayerblue

Hows it going lads

Shes a 93 mk3 1.4 golf. I went out this morning to go to work and sat in and she just wont start.

She trys her best and turns over and over to the point of the battery going dead but something just wont kick in. My brother gave me a tow for maybe 2mls and still nothing.

So far i've gone through the Sparks and they are clean and dry, HT leads and distributor are in good shape and fuel pump is doing its job and all electricals and connections appear to be working and connected.

She started fine yesterday and drives like a dream for her age without an ounce of trouble. If not driven for a day or so she is very prone to dampnes but that soon goes after a few minutes driving.

At this stage the only thing i can think of is perhaps the carb?
Any thoughts or advice greatly welcome.

JackFrosty

I am not been smart, but is there enough fuel in it to start it?

crosstownk

A common fault with those Golfs is the hall sender on the distributor which triggers the spark.

Have you confirmed that you are getting a spark?

johnplayerblue

JackFrosty wrote: »

I am not been smart, but is there enough fuel in it to start it?

Hey, thats not been smart at all, spent two whole days last year trying to start a primera and even though the gauge was reading enough fuel to start her i posted here and one of the lads said the tanks on that model were quiet big and to try some more fuel in the tank which i did and the bitch started

but in this case theres about 30/40e in her tank. Just thinking about it, even after all that trying to start her she dosent seem to be flooding? I wonder

johnplayerblue

crosstownk wrote: »

A common fault with those Golfs is the hall sender on the distributor which triggers the spark.

Have you confirmed that you are getting a spark?

No i,ve not tryed that yet, is it just a case of takeing out the plug and attach it to the ht lead and turning over and watching for a spark?

crosstownk

johnplayerblue wrote: »

No i,ve not tryed that yet, is it just a case of takeing out the plug and attach it to the ht lead and turning over and watching for a spark?

Yes, but obviously the spark plug needs to be grounded - just ensure the threaded part of the plug is in good contact with something metal like the cylinder head. Keep you hands as far away as possible!! It's also an idea to shade as much light as possible so you can clearly see the spark.

If you're getting a spark then you'll need check fuel delivery.

Darragh29

johnplayerblue wrote: »

Hey, thats not been smart at all, spent two whole days last year trying to start a primera and even though the gauge was reading enough fuel to start her i posted here and one of the lads said the tanks on that model were quiet big and to try some more fuel in the tank which i did and the bitch started

but in this case theres about 30/40e in her tank. Just thinking about it, even after all that trying to start her she dosent seem to be flooding? I wonder

Sounds like it was recently filled up, are you sure it's petrol that is in the tank?!?

crosstownk

Darragh29 wrote: »

Sounds like it was recently filled up, are you sure it's petrol that is in the tank?!?

I don't think the larger diesel pump nozzle will fit into the filler neck of that Golf......I know that's the case on modern cars but I'm not 100% sure about a 1993 Golf.

johnplayerblue

crosstownk wrote: »

Yes, but obviously the spark plug needs to be grounded - just ensure the threaded part of the plug is in good contact with something metal like the cylinder head. Keep you hands as far away as possible!! It's also an idea to shade as much light as possible so you can clearly see the spark.

If you're getting a spark then you'll need check fuel delivery.

Sound, will try that right now crosstownk and as it happens i have a 97 1.4 engine that needs puting into another mk3 golf sometime in the new year so i can swap out the two distro if need be.

Funny, my old man has been saying its the distro since i mentioned it to him.
Fingers crossed..

Darragh29

crosstownk wrote: »

I don't think the larger diesel pump nozzle will fit into the filler neck of that Golf......I know that's the case on modern cars but I'm not 100% sure about a 1993 Golf.

Not too sure on this, OP let us know if you have a spark anyway. Also, check all 4 cylinders for a spark, not just cylinder 1...

Sorry, I mistakenly thought this was a Mk 4 Golf issue here. OP, after checking for a spark, take off the distributor cap and check the central carbon electrode in the cap for condition and also check the and rotor arm in the distributor. I had the same car as yours in for non starting issues recently enough and the problem was a combination of the following...

(1) Two plug leads were throwing a spark to earth at the plug lead heads, and this caused the system to be intermittantly down on two cylinders. You can check for this by trying to start the engine in the dark, you'll immediately see the sparks jumping down at the plug leads...

(2) Distributor cap electrodes were worn, causing an irregular spark.

crosstownk

Pour a thimbleful of petrol down the neck of the throttle body and see if it starts momentarily.....

If you do end up using parts from the other engine, just swap over the hall sender. It's the wee black part with three wires connected to it. Much easier than swapping the complete dizzy.

johnplayerblue

Darragh29 wrote: »

Sounds like it was recently filled up, are you sure it's petrol that is in the tank?!?

Ye i fill her once a week for about 65/70e so thers about 30 or so left in her.

Darragh29

Well, do we have a spark???

johnplayerblue

Darragh29 wrote: »

Well, do we have a spark???

Sorry for the delay, left the dam plug wrench in brothers car.
Ok, tried all four sparks but couldn't see a spark of any kind and if memory serves me i should see the slightest of blueish/orange sparks?

So i then replaced full distro(connected via 2 allen key bolts) and HT leads from said 1.4 97 engine which i know work but to my amazment still no spark from any four plugs

johnplayerblue

crosstownk wrote: »

Pour a thimbleful of petrol down the neck of the throttle body and see if it starts momentarily.....

If you do end up using parts from the other engine, just swap over the hall sender. It's the wee black part with three wires connected to it. Much easier than swapping the complete dizzy.

Just done this a couple times now crosstownk and still now joy.(Dam it)

DublinDilbert

As crosstown says above you have to make sure the body of the plug is grounded onto the engine... but you should be seeing a spark at each plug.

If you have them grounded and can't see a spark it looks like you may have found your problem.

i'm not overly familar with the golf of that vintage, but i presume that the hall effect sender grounds one side of the primary winding on the coil, and the other side of the primary should be connected to 12V. If this is the case, it would be worth checking to see if this 12V is at the coil.

If that fails, have you a spare coil handy?

johnplayerblue

DublinDilbert wrote: »

As crosstown says above you have to make sure the body of the plug is grounded onto the engine... but you should be seeing a spark at each plug.

If you have them grounded and can't see a spark it looks like you may have found your problem.

i'm not overly familar with the golf of that vintage, but i presume that the hall effect sender grounds one side of the primary winding on the coil, and the other side of the primary should be connected to 12V. If this is the case, it would be worth checking to see if this 12V is at the coil.

If that fails, have you a spare coil handy?

I have a spare engine dilbert I'm afraid my knowledge is very limited to the very basics and you have pretty much lost me on the second paragraph.

Would i be in such bad luck as to have a different distro fail? i've changed HT leads and full distro out of another golf of the same make, model and age but the problem does seem to be very much in this area so what am i doing wrong?

Engine is turning over perfectly but just no "kick in"

I've tested the plugs for a spark by placing the plug back into HT lead and placing on the metal plate that you would use for grounding when jump starting, i think most cars have this metal bracket attached to the crank case/head for grounding.

L-M

Timing belt still in tact?

johnplayerblue

Limerick-man wrote: »

Timing belt still in tact?

I didn't check but a new belt/pump went in about 1yr ago/15k mls

L-M

johnplayerblue wrote: »

I didn't check but a new belt/pump went in about 1yr ago/15k mls

Aye but did you check it?

There's definitly petrol coming through there is?

DublinDilbert

Did you swap over the complete distributor? including the cap + rotor arm etc?

It does sound like you've no spark....

Have you located your ignition coil?

Can you identify the primary winding connections?

johnplayerblue

DublinDilbert wrote: »

Did you swap over the complete distributor? including the cap + rotor arm etc?

It does sound like you've no spark....

Have you located your ignition coil?

Can you identify the primary winding connections?

Ye i swaped the complete distributor over, leads and all and made sure to connect leads in proper order but god dam i'm stumped.

Have you located your ignition coil? No. I don't know where it is to be very honest.

Can you identify the primary winding connections? No would be the honest answer.

Hal1

Heres your igition coil:

DublinDilbert

Ok,

In the picture above the spade connectors are the primary winding (low voltage). The secondary winding ( high voltage ) is made between the centre terminal and the case.

You could try taking off the spade connections from the coil and connecting a 12V car bulb to them... then turn the engine over by hand (rachet on the crank pully), the bulb should pulse as the hall effect device tries to pulse the primary of the coil.

johnplayerblue

Hal1 wrote: »

Heres your igition coil:

Guys this is gona be a real remedial question but where on this model golf engine would i find this?

I thought i knew my engine pretty well but can't recall seeing my igition coil, unless its packed away at the bulk head down where the starter motor is in which case thats a bitch of a place

DublinDilbert

Ummmmm maybe follow the ignition cables? :eek:

There should be a HT Lead going from the centre of the distributor cap to the coil!

If there isn't a HT lead going from the centre of your distributor cap to your coil, i think we've found the problem

johnplayerblue

DublinDilbert wrote: »

Ummmmm maybe follow the ignition cables? :eek:

There should be a HT Lead going from the centre of the distributor cap to the coil!

If there isn't a HT lead going from the centre of your distributor cap to your coil, i think we've found the problem

Ah.. i knew i wasn't that bad and was thinking the same thing about the center lead going to the coil as in other cars i've had but in the golf the center ht lead goes to the window wiper motor on the bulk head.

DublinDilbert

johnplayerblue wrote: »

golf the center ht lead goes to the window wiper motor on the bulk head.

Ummm trying to work out if that's sarcasm or not ... :rolleyes:

Cause i didn't know that model golf came with the combined ignition coil / wiper motor assembly... ( you learn something new every day )

Darragh29

johnplayerblue wrote: »

Ye i swaped the complete distributor over, leads and all and made sure to connect leads in proper order but god dam i'm stumped.

Have you located your ignition coil? No. I don't know where it is to be very honest.

Can you identify the primary winding connections? No would be the honest answer.

OP, you're digging major holes for yourself here. If you've changed the distributor (as distinct from the distributor cap), unless you have being very careful with engine timing, you now have another problem on your hands. If you cannot find the coil, then you cannot change over a whole distributor successfully! I hope you mean you only changed over the distributor cap...

If you have no spark, changing the distributor is not going to resolve the problem. You need to do a several checks before you change the distributor and even if you do have to change the distributor, you can't just take it out and put in another one, you have to be extremely careful when it comes ot timing the distributor with respect to the rest of the engine... The distributor has to go in only one way.

Have I got this right, you have no spark??? If so, there is no need to check fuel delivery until you have resolved the spark issue. You have to be disciplined with this and identify one issue at a time and resolve that issue.

As for the coil location question, follow the centre HT lead (there are 4 spark plug HT* leads and one coil HT* lead in the distributor cap) from the distributor cap and wherever this leads to, this is your coil.

* High Tension = 12,000 VDC or higher, so beware...

crosstownk

OP - the pic of the coil is wrong. I'm assuming you have a MkIII Golf which means you have an ignition transformer which is mounted near enough to the wiper motor.

Items 12 & 13 below constitute the ignition transformer which essentially does the same job as the coil using electronics and delivers a much higher voltage. As Darragh said, it's well in excess of 12kV but with little or no current behind it. It probably won't kill you but if you get a few rapid jolts you won't forget it in a hurry!!

ianobrien

johnplayerblue wrote: »

Ye i swaped the complete distributor over, leads and all and made sure to connect leads in proper order

Well, as Darragh29 says, you've now got another problem, you're timing out as you've removed the whole distributor. The timing in the Golf is now all over the shop. The problem with a car with the timing being out was shown to me after I got a competition distributor for the Escort. Despite the engine being at TDC and everything being double checked, the timing was a fraction out, and sparked when the inlet valves were still open. Result, flames out the carbs. In this case, the timing was only a small bit out.

I once had a similar problem, turned off the car and 20 minutes later would not start (up a mountain in the middle of the night). I had the same - No spark. After 5 minutes with a bulb and some wire, I figured out that there was no HT coming out of the coil, despite current going it.

So, a quick phone call to a friend asking could I "borrow" a coil from his spares, and could he deliver it. 5 minutes after he arrived and after swapping coils, the car started.

Before anybody asked, I checked the petrol pumps by pulling the petrol pipe off the carb. Health and safety went our the window that night. It was dark and lashing rain.....

Darragh29

I hope the OP meant he swopped over the distributor cap and not the whole distributor assembly... OP, can you clarify this for us??? Also, did you do as I suggested earlier and check the condition of the electrodes inside the distributor cap, particularly the centre carbon electrode and also the rotor arm???

crosstownk

If you haven't set up the timing then you're in a spot of bother. You can set it up close enough by doing the following.

1. Remove the distributor cap. Look at the edge/rim of the metal body. You will see a line cut across it.

2. Set the crank pulley to TDC. When you do the rotor arm should point at this line in the rim. The HT lead in the corresponding position on the distributor should be the lead for cylinder no.1 (closest to the timing belt end).

3. Slacken the bolts that mount the distributor. Start the engine - if it runs lumpy, rotate the distributor body - very slowly - in each direction until the engine smooths out as best it can. Lock up the distributor mounting bolts at this point.

This should be enough to get the engine running well enough to drive but to have the ignition timing 100% it will need a timing lamp hooked up.

All the above assumes you can get a spark. If you still see no spark, it might be an idea to check to see if the engine itself is grounded. Check the earth strap from the battery to the gearbox/engine in case it has broken or become detached.

johnplayerblue

DublinDilbert wrote: »

Ummm trying to work out if that's sarcasm or not ... :rolleyes:

Cause i didn't know that model golf came with the combined ignition coil / wiper motor assembly... ( you learn something new every day )

Jesus no not at all dilbert, i was feeling stupid about not knowing where the ignition coil on my own engine was

But once you said the center lead would feed back into the coil as in older cars than mine i kinda felt a little relived.

johnplayerblue

Darragh29 wrote: »

I hope the OP meant he swopped over the distributor cap and not the whole distributor assembly... OP, can you clarify this for us??? Also, did you do as I suggested earlier and check the condition of the electrodes inside the distributor cap, particularly the centre carbon electrode and also the rotor arm???

I went ahead and swopped over the distributor assembly after the swopping over of the distributor cap failed and knew by the timing marks that i had ****edup when it was too late... electrode and rotor arm are in good condition.

Darragh29

johnplayerblue wrote: »

I went ahead and swopped over the distributor assembly after the swopping over of the distributor cap failed and knew by the timing marks that i had ****edup when it was too late... electrode and rotor arm are in good condition.

Call a mechanic, 'cos it's unlikely now that you'll get this sorted on your own. Now you have an ignition timing problem as well as the original problem...

And be sure to tell him that he needs to reset the ignition timing.

Alternatively, you can take out the spark plug from cylinder number 1, bring the cylinder to TDC (top dead centre), by using a pencil or something like that touching off the top of the piston, and try to roughly set the ignition timing by putting back on the distributor cap and relocating the distributor itself so that the rotor arm is hitting the electrode for plug lead number 1 when cylinder number 1 is at TDC...

johnplayerblue

Ok i reckon i might be able to get the timing back as close to normal with the instructions given until i can get it to the only mechanic i trust around here, but he's 20mls+ from me.

Do you guys think the ignition coil / wiper motor assembly might be at fault here?

Will check the earth strap from the battery to the gearbox/engine in the morning to see if it has broken or become detached, might explain no spark from the plug when testing it.

Dam it i have a feeling i have turned something rather simple into a pain in the arse.

crosstownk

The ignition coil could be at fault but there's no guarantee. It could be something as simple as a fuse - have you checked them all?

If you feel up to the job then fire ahead but if you've any reservations about your ability then maybe you should leave it to your trusted mechanic in case you make a bad situation worse.

If you are to continue your diagnosis you need to be very systematic in how you approach it. Only you know your abilities but don't bite off more than you can chew as it may cost you in the long run.

johnplayerblue

Ye i've checked all fuses and all are good. Also theres been an issue with my indicators for the last month so there is an electrical fault in the car somewhere.
Thanks a million for all of the much appricheated time and advise. I will get her back to pretty much the same condition as when i started and leave it at that and hand it over to the professionals.

That said i have a funny feeling about the earth strap for some reason but then again funny feelings have sometimes found a way of hitting me in the pocket. :rolleyes:

Thanks lads.