Atheist or Anti-Christian?

brianthebard

I see a lot of what atheists believe or disbelieve (depending on your wording) in this forum to be as much or more about Christianity/Catholicism bashing as it is about a secular lifestyle. There are plenty of people here who say they will celebrate or appreciate the pagan festivals that pre-date Christianity, such as solstice, rather than Christmas. Surely they are all equally invalid? The idea of an atheist preferencing one holiday over another seems rather absurd to me (an open minded agnostic btw, in case anyone's bothered). Can anyone enlighten me as to the thinking behind this sort of thing? I don't see how it can go deeper than the aforementioned Catholic bashing, but I'd like to hear people's reasoning on the topic.

Fanny Cradock

You might have some luck here:

http://boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2055432327

eire4life

ATHEIST : PRO theism

monkeyfudge

brianthebard wrote: »

There are plenty of people here who say they will celebrate or appreciate the pagan festivals that pre-date Christianity, such as solstice, rather than Christmas. Surely they are all equally invalid? The idea of an atheist preferencing one holiday over another seems rather absurd to me (an open minded agnostic btw, in case anyone's bothered). Can anyone enlighten me as to the thinking behind this sort of thing? I don't see how it can go deeper than the aforementioned Catholic bashing, but I'd like to hear people's reasoning on the topic.

Sounds a bit bizarre to me. It certainly wouldn't make them an atheist in my eyes.

As for the bashing of catholicism... it's the religion most of us would have been bullied into all our lives... of course there's going to be a backlash against it.

Red Hand

Well Christmas is almost a fully Capitalist/materialist festival now and has been for some time-are you going to celebrate it?:)

For me, it would sense to have a festival in Winter...many cultures on this latitude do it as a way of breaking up a cold dark season, and if you think about it, the solstice is a logical place in the calender to do it and bring in the new year. Imo, the new year should begin on the solstice...at least then, the calender year and astronomical year line up a bit closer.

monkeyfudge

They need to decimalise time.. that's what they need to do. Stupid calender with it's days and months named after gods.

Doctor DooM

monkeyfudge wrote: »

They need to decimalise time.. that's what they need to do. Stupid calender with it's days and months named after gods.

I quite like the fact that Januuary is based on Janus, who depending on depiction either has many, or two faces. January, brought to you by the god of bitchiness!

Christianity is just an easy target for most, tbh.

rockbeer

While paganism is no more objectively 'true' than christianity, the two are worlds apart in their natures.

Pagans don't proselytize. Their pantheism leaves plenty of room for all sorts of other beliefs. They don't claim to have the absolute truth. They don't tell people what to believe, how to think or how to act. They don't claim that people who think or act differently are evil/sinful/deserving of punishment. They don't try to subvert public policy to suit their own moral agenda. Their beliefs are rooted in respect for nature, unlike the human-centric arrogance of christianity.

Pagan beliefs are not defined and codified but personal - their 'gods' are personifications of natural phenomena, and each individual is totally at liberty to experience and interpret his or her relationship with such phenomena in whatever way suits. You don't have to believe in anything supernatural to be a pagan.

Pagan festivals reflect the natural seasonal cycles that govern our lives whether we like it or not. You don't have to believe in any kind of deity to celebrate the return of the light. Simple relief that things aren't going to get any darker will do.
It's not hard to figure out why people find all this less objectionable than christianity with its rigid and proscriptive moral straightjacket.

Dades

Jasus, another feckin' "why do you eat drink and enjoy yourself at Christmas you damned heathen" thread!

To answer the fresher part of your question, as monkeyfudge says, most of us were raised catholics. Furthermore we live in a predominately catholic country, and have to suffer all sorts of abuses (!) at the hand of that religion.

Foremost amongst those abuses, are such horrors as The Angelus, and Baby Jesus stamps.

Galvasean

SDooM wrote: »

I quite like the fact that Januuary is based on Janus, who depending on depiction either has many, or two faces. January, brought to you by the god of bitchiness!

*chuckles*

Zombrex

brianthebard wrote: »

I see a lot of what atheists believe or disbelieve (depending on your wording) in this forum to be as much or more about Christianity/Catholicism bashing as it is about a secular lifestyle. There are plenty of people here who say they will celebrate or appreciate the pagan festivals that pre-date Christianity, such as solstice, rather than Christmas. Surely they are all equally invalid? The idea of an atheist preferencing one holiday over another seems rather absurd to me (an open minded agnostic btw, in case anyone's bothered). Can anyone enlighten me as to the thinking behind this sort of thing? I don't see how it can go deeper than the aforementioned Catholic bashing, but I'd like to hear people's reasoning on the topic.

That isn't really the point of the "Christmas is a pagan holiday" arguments.

It is that Christians don't own "Christmas" (in fact most fundamentalist Christians think Christmas is a bit silly, Jesus wasn't born on the 25th of December nor is there any great significance of his birth, it was his death that was important)

So it isn't the idea that atheists want to celeberating the Pagan festivals, it is the idea that someone can dance and be merry around Christmas without having to a Christian.

ChocolateSauce

brianthebard wrote: »

I see a lot of what atheists believe or disbelieve (depending on your wording) in this forum to be as much or more about Christianity/Catholicism bashing as it is about a secular lifestyle. There are plenty of people here who say they will celebrate or appreciate the pagan festivals that pre-date Christianity, such as solstice, rather than Christmas. Surely they are all equally invalid? The idea of an atheist preferencing one holiday over another seems rather absurd to me (an open minded agnostic btw, in case anyone's bothered). Can anyone enlighten me as to the thinking behind this sort of thing? I don't see how it can go deeper than the aforementioned Catholic bashing, but I'd like to hear people's reasoning on the topic.

I'd also point out that unlike Christmas the solstice is an actual natural event which in old times symbolised the beginning of the end of winter and the growth of new life; you don't need any religion to celebrate such a holiday.

And what the hell is a secular lifestyle anyway? I've never heard of it.

anonymous_joe

ChocolateSauce wrote: »

I'd also point out that unlike Christmas the solstice is an actual natural event which in old times symbolised the beginning of the end of winter and the growth of new life; you don't need any religion to celebrate such a holiday.

And what the hell is a secular lifestyle anyway? I've never heard of it.

It'd be the opposite of a religious lifestyle. Or probably more accurately, a lifestyle lacking religion.

Húrin

rockbeer wrote: »

While paganism is no more objectively 'true' than christianity, the two are worlds apart in their natures.

Pagans don't proselytize. Their pantheism leaves plenty of room for all sorts of other beliefs. They don't claim to have the absolute truth. They don't tell people what to believe, how to think or how to act. They don't claim that people who think or act differently are evil/sinful/deserving of punishment. They don't try to subvert public policy to suit their own moral agenda. Their beliefs are rooted in respect for nature, unlike the human-centric arrogance of christianity.

Pagan beliefs are not defined and codified but personal - their 'gods' are personifications of natural phenomena, and each individual is totally at liberty to experience and interpret his or her relationship with such phenomena in whatever way suits. You don't have to believe in anything supernatural to be a pagan.

Pagan festivals reflect the natural seasonal cycles that govern our lives whether we like it or not. You don't have to believe in any kind of deity to celebrate the return of the light. Simple relief that things aren't going to get any darker will do.
It's not hard to figure out why people find all this less objectionable than christianity with its rigid and proscriptive moral straightjacket.

What's your source for this rather romanticised version of pagan beliefs?

Wibbs

Húrin wrote: »

What's your source for this rather romanticised version of pagan beliefs?

Good point actually, define "Pagan". Do you mean the relatively modern construct of Wicca, or do you mean all non Abrahamic religions? In which case Hindism is Pagan, as is Buddhism. If you're talking about Animism or Shamanism, it gets even more complex.

lostexpectation

i think alot of people here say that thing that we commmonly call the solstice is more noteworthy then christmas (being that it is the reason xmas is when xmas is).

its a real natural material event.

brianthebard

monkeyfudge wrote: »

Sounds a bit bizarre to me. It certainly wouldn't make them an atheist in my eyes.

As for the bashing of catholicism... it's the religion most of us would have been bullied into all our lives... of course there's going to be a backlash against it.

I realise that, but I think that's all the more reason to move away from the backlash. I grew up as a Catholic too, but putting a hate on the Church for Christmas, or using paganism as a one up is silly. I still have strong feelings about the Church's role in politics say, but not in the way people have expressed here. Not all I hasten to add, but a good few.

Jeremiah 16:1 wrote: »

Well Christmas is almost a fully Capitalist/materialist festival now and has been for some time-are you going to celebrate it?:)

For me, it would sense to have a festival in Winter...many cultures on this latitude do it as a way of breaking up a cold dark season, and if you think about it, the solstice is a logical place in the calender to do it and bring in the new year. Imo, the new year should begin on the solstice...at least then, the calender year and astronomical year line up a bit closer.

My family will be celibrating it and I'll be there, so I suppose so. Ok so you can have a secular festival, that's grand. Personally I like the idea of a day when no one (or as few people as possible) are actually working. I think that's great. But not going "stfu church, we're going old skool".

rockbeer wrote: »

While paganism is no more objectively 'true' than christianity, the two are worlds apart in their natures.

Pagans don't proselytize. Their pantheism leaves plenty of room for all sorts of other beliefs. They don't claim to have the absolute truth. They don't tell people what to believe, how to think or how to act. They don't claim that people who think or act differently are evil/sinful/deserving of punishment. They don't try to subvert public policy to suit their own moral agenda. Their beliefs are rooted in respect for nature, unlike the human-centric arrogance of christianity.

Pagan beliefs are not defined and codified but personal - their 'gods' are personifications of natural phenomena, and each individual is totally at liberty to experience and interpret his or her relationship with such phenomena in whatever way suits. You don't have to believe in anything supernatural to be a pagan.

Pagan festivals reflect the natural seasonal cycles that govern our lives whether we like it or not. You don't have to believe in any kind of deity to celebrate the return of the light. Simple relief that things aren't going to get any darker will do.
It's not hard to figure out why people find all this less objectionable than christianity with its rigid and proscriptive moral straightjacket.

Lolz that's the sort of thing I'm talking about. Its quite funny to see people defending one faith but putting down another. To be ok with paganism because of pantheism but not Christianity, and to suggest that there aren't as many rules in paganism so therefore its ok for atheists (who I am led to believe don't believe in any god, and don't accept religion as a valid idea) just shows a complete double standard and a need to bash christianity which is put before a need to reject religion, which I thought was the more important element of atheism.

Dades wrote: »

Jasus, another feckin' "why do you eat drink and enjoy yourself at Christmas you damned heathen" thread!

To answer the fresher part of your question, as monkeyfudge says, most of us were raised catholics. Furthermore we live in a predominately catholic country, and have to suffer all sorts of abuses (!) at the hand of that religion.

Foremost amongst those abuses, are such horrors as The Angelus, and Baby Jesus stamps.

Its not a why do you do Christmas thread, its why are some faiths more acceptable to an atheist than others? Very different imo. To rage against an abuser because of their abuse is just perpetuating a cycle imo, and is rather immature.

brianthebard

Wicknight wrote: »

That isn't really the point of the "Christmas is a pagan holiday" arguments.

It is that Christians don't own "Christmas" (in fact most fundamentalist Christians think Christmas is a bit silly, Jesus wasn't born on the 25th of December nor is there any great significance of his birth, it was his death that was important)

So it isn't the idea that atheists want to celeberating the Pagan festivals, it is the idea that someone can dance and be merry around Christmas without having to a Christian.

I don't believe Christians own Christmas either, nor do I believe pagans (of any ilk, to acknowledge the other posts on this topic) should have a claim to a particular date either. Of course there is no significance to the actual date 25th, but these things aren't supposed to be taken literally. In any case the point is that saying you're (that's any you, not you specifically) are down with the pagan holiday of solstice but not the Christian Christmas is hypocritical. I think they should be held in equal regard or equal animosity, but two levels of criticism based on one's direct experience of a particular creed just suggests irrational hatred and pettyness which atheism isn't supposed to be about from what I gather.

rockbeer

Húrin wrote: »

What's your source for this rather romanticised version of pagan beliefs?

Most of the many pagans I've known.
What is this, have a pop at rockbeer day?

rockbeer

brianthebard wrote: »

Lolz that's the sort of thing I'm talking about. Its quite funny to see people defending one faith but putting down another. To be ok with paganism because of pantheism but not Christianity, and to suggest that there aren't as many rules in paganism so therefore its ok for atheists (who I am led to believe don't believe in any god, and don't accept religion as a valid idea) just shows a complete double standard and a need to bash christianity which is put before a need to reject religion, which I thought was the more important element of atheism.

Try rereading my post. I'm not 'defending' pagan beliefs, just pointing out some of the differences. Where do I say I'm 'OK with paganism'? Where do I say it's 'OK for atheists'?

Ok for atheists to what, anyway? I think your sentence is lacking something there.

The differences are real. I make it quite clear that in my view there is no more truth to pagan beliefs than christian ones, but assert that as a set of values those beliefs are less objectionable than christian ones. No hypocrisy or double standard there.

What's your problem with that?

Helix

brianthebard wrote: »

I see a lot of what atheists believe or disbelieve (depending on your wording) in this forum to be as much or more about Christianity/Catholicism bashing as it is about a secular lifestyle

i think thats coz in ireland we're surrounded by christianity/catholicism, and people are just used to associating religion with the catholic church. similar to the way that people in ireland are only catholics because they were born here, people on the other side of the coin only worry about discrediting catholicism because its what theyre surrounded with

imo of course

JC 2K3

What a silly topic.

It's not very common at all for atheists to say that they celebrate solstice and not Christmas, you're coming to conclusions from an incorrect extrapolation.

A common and really stupid argument/dig against atheists from Christians is saying that by partaking in the holiday and celebrations of Christmas, they are, in fact being hypocritical and practicing Christianity.

This is countered by the obvious rebuttal that you don't need to be religious to take a holiday every now and then, and that it makes sense to take a holiday when everyone else in your country does. Furthermore, Christians derive the date of Christmas and other holidays as well as many practices (which don't involve worship or compromising of their beliefs, but are simply nice/fun things to do) from their holidays from different cultures and religions such as Paganism, so why shouldn't atheists derive dates and practices in a similar manner?

It has absolutely nothing to do with atheists being more accepting of Paganism than Christianity. In my eyes, in terms of religious belief, a Pagan is as deluded as a Christian.

brianthebard

JC 2K3 wrote: »

What a silly topic.

I respectfully disagree.

It's not very common at all for atheists to say that they celebrate solstice and not Christmas, you're coming to conclusions from an incorrect extrapolation.

A common and really stupid argument/dig against atheists from Christians is saying that by partaking in the holiday and celebrations of Christmas, they are, in fact being hypocritical and practicing Christianity.

This is countered by the obvious rebuttal that you don't need to be religious to take a holiday every now and then, and that it makes sense to take a holiday when everyone else in your country does. Furthermore, Christians derive the date of Christmas and other holidays as well as many practices (which don't involve worship or compromising of their beliefs, but are simply nice/fun things to do) from their holidays from different cultures and religions such as Paganism, so why shouldn't atheists derive dates and practices in a similar manner?

That would be fine if people want to take a holiday I'm all for it. But saying things like I'll acknowledge solstice but not Christmas is a double standard imo. That's not a direct quote but rather an impression of the attitude a lot of posters here have. To claim (or appear to claim) however that because Christians coupled their holiday to a previous one makes the previous holiday more valid seems to be false reasoning to me. However a lot of people do it. That to me is part of the double standard.

It has absolutely nothing to do with atheists being more accepting of Paganism than Christianity. In my eyes, in terms of religious belief, a Pagan is as deluded as a Christian.

Good we agree that atheists should hold both faiths in the same regard. However that's not the case from what I've read in this forum of late.

JC 2K3

brianthebard wrote: »

That would be fine if people want to take a holiday I'm all for it. But saying things like I'll acknowledge solstice but not Christmas is a double standard imo. That's not a direct quote but rather an impression of the attitude a lot of posters here have.

A false impression, perhaps?

You are perhaps mistaking light-hearted, satirical comments as posters on here honestly stating that they are actually going to celebrate solstice.

brianthebard

I don't think that's the case but fair enough if you disagree. I can see some of the posters were joking, but others weren't imo.

Red Hand

brianthebard wrote: »

My family will be celibrating it and I'll be there, so I suppose so.

Suckling at Capitalism's teat? Shame on you!:pac:

Ok so you can have a secular festival, that's grand. Personally I like the idea of a day when no one (or as few people as possible) are actually working. I think that's great. But not going "stfu church, we're going old skool".

I agree, it can be a bit petty. I will probably go to mass, but that is because Mom will want me there as she is in the choir. Equally, I'd have no difficulty in celebrating Ramadan so long as I put a load of food in me.:)

Lolz that's the sort of thing I'm talking about. Its quite funny to see people defending one faith but putting down another. To be ok with paganism because of pantheism but not Christianity, and to suggest that there aren't as many rules in paganism so therefore its ok for atheists (who I am led to believe don't believe in any god, and don't accept religion as a valid idea) just shows a complete double standard and a need to bash christianity which is put before a need to reject religion, which I thought was the more important element of atheism.

Its not a why do you do Christmas thread, its why are some faiths more acceptable to an atheist than others? Very different imo. To rage against an abuser because of their abuse is just perpetuating a cycle imo, and is rather immature.

True enough, but in this forum the only thing atheists have in common with each other is a lack of belief. There may be other issues at work with certain posters, but they don't speak for the majority.

I view all religions with the same amount of suspiscion. Maybe that's the drink talking or maybe it's the truth...who knows.:pac:

Dades

brianthebard wrote: »

Its not a why do you do Christmas thread, its why are some faiths more acceptable to an atheist than others? Very different imo. To rage against an abuser because of their abuse is just perpetuating a cycle imo, and is rather immature.

Where is this 'rage' against the abuser, exactly?

Christmas is a non-issue - the only reason it gets talked about is because people constantly start threads questioning what is means to atheists, and in some cases Christians demanding to know why they celebrate anything at all.

This inevitably leads to the pointing out that Christmas hijacked a pagan festival, which does NOT mean atheists are celebrating that instead - merely that any Christian feeling that a winter holiday is exclusive to Christians is wrong - and they don't have the monopoly on winter fun.

lostexpectation

pagans don't own the solstice either. but atleast something happens around that time.

what happens on the 25th nothing.

SilkySmooth

i'm more of a lurker here but-

monkeyfudge wrote: »

As for the bashing of catholicism... it's the religion most of us would have been bullied into all our lives... of course there's going to be a backlash against it.

So why is Christianity habitually mocked on these boards exactly? is there Any good reason for it? No. ''It's just the way it is...":rolleyes:

Jeremiah 16:1 wrote: »

Well Christmas is almost a fully Capitalist/materialist festival now and has been for some time-are you going to celebrate it?:)

Yeah, almost, but not quite, is it? As much as certain people hate the notion of a religious holiday, there will still be a substantial number of people in my local church on Christmas Day. It's some people want to believe that if you say Christmas isn't a Christian holiday enough times, then it won't be. But it doesn't work like that.

rockbeer wrote: »

Pagans don't proselytize. Their pantheism leaves plenty of room for all sorts of other beliefs. They don't claim to have the absolute truth. They don't tell people what to believe, how to think or how to act. They don't claim that people who think or act differently are evil/sinful/deserving of punishment. They don't try to subvert public policy to suit their own moral agenda. Their beliefs are rooted in respect for nature, unlike the human-centric arrogance of christianity.

A fine example of the christianity-bashing that goes on in these boards- ridiculously over-generalizing as well.


sorry for the rant folks, but this kind of talk gets on my nerves.

Zombrex

brianthebard wrote: »

In any case the point is that saying you're (that's any you, not you specifically) are down with the pagan holiday of solstice but not the Christian Christmas is hypocritical.

True, but then I'm not sure anyone is actually saying that.

Well the pagans might (don't forget you can be pagan and atheist, so long as you don't believe in gods you are technically atheist, and pagan has such a broad meaning it can include supernatural belief systems that don't have a concept of a god)

Mal-Adjusted

the sad truth is that ireland used to be under the thumb of the catholic church, and many posters here are probably lashing out against personal expierences. still, the sad truth is that many posters here seem so venemously anti-christian that thay are just looking for a fight...maybe not, but discussion forums let people say things they would never say face to face.

like it or not, Christmas IS a christian festival. all the bitching in the wrld won't change that.