Gods and Ghosts

Loxosceles

OK I'm a pretty hardcore atheist myself, even to the point of blasting those who try to go feminist and transfer the desire for deity and the accompanying superstitions to a goddess. Which is funny because I'm a feminist too.

But my actual point is, I'm an atheist, firmly rooted in skepticism and science. Science is fact, fact is objective truth proven in a laboratory or by scientific method, and all other truths are subjective and personal. Gods are not literal, they are group mental constructs intended to symbolise any number of aspects of human potential and help their adherents attain a degree of those ideals.

So when I see a picture of Shiva or Durga or a cross or whatnot, I know they are symbols with a meaning of potential and it is the group hypnosis of their adherents which manifest any outcome through prayer or concentration.

Because the power of the human mind to also affect the fabric of reality is not thoroughly researched and explored, group hypnosis or concentration can possibly manifest as well in physical events. I address this as a theoretical scientific possibility which would be based in quantum relationships and events.

And for this same reason, even though I do not believe in the physical reality of gods beyond what results may be manifested through group human concentration or personal concentration on a goal, I am still fascinated by paranormal phenomena. Not as a theory, but as a reality.

If I assume on this premise that gods themselves are not real, but belief in them or anything else (as well as the power of will) can generate quantum relationships and events, then there are a lot of strange things out there which can be rooted in actual phenomena and scientifically proven.

From the many hours of very interesting scientific research on paranormal phenomena I've watched, I've come to some interesting observations on what is called a haunting:

1) Intensity of will can quite possibly create physical manifestation. Negative will is the strongest in the immediate paranormal environment, which like one tomato thrown at a singer in an arena full of happy fans, will still stop the show. And it seems to be the only source of environmental manifestation of "ghosts", whereas positive will manifests differently and, like religion and spiritualism, is obviously open to debate. Although I suspect it has a more magnified and far-reaching effect, it is not a localised event like negative will.

2) Light emissions definitely interfere with negative energy drawing and exchange, maybe photon interference on some quantum level? A root of why spooky things like the dark?

3) Orb phenomena, mist phenomena, cold spots, kinetic phenomena have all been physically documented.

---

So, coming from you all, what do you think of my theory that gods are false and ghosts are real?

Do you think that it is possible that consciousness and energy can concentrate itself in the physical world after death depending on the strength of will?

I actually have personal paranormal experience, one event harrowing, but it does not make me believe in gods or demons. Human beings are the gods and demons, I think. However, I have a genuine dislike for what are called ghosts and am convinced that if they exist, any attempt at contact on their part should be dispelled and curtailed, because business ends at death regardless. I trust human instinct for terror and fear at such a thing, because those instincts wouldn't be there if they weren't unhealthy on all levels.

But religious explanations for these sorts of things as demonic are based in superstition, and don't have practical use; yet universal dismissal of religion throws the baby out with the bathwater and leaves a lot of questions unanswered when it comes to the potential and power of will and concentration in order to shift events.

Input? Agree, disagree? Why?

lox.

monkeyfudge

I'm an absolute atheist... but I do have a keen interest in the paranormal on a hobby level.

But generally it involves proving why locations aren't actually haunted and that there is a more plausible explanation for everything...

I guess I watched too much Scooby Doo as a kid... Velma was hot...

I think you're giving too much belief to quantum theory though... People seem to eager to believe in it to account for the unexplained because of it's more unique properties, when good old particle physics will do the job much better.

I have always liked the idea that the human brain is actually a quantum gravity computer though... it's a computer that acts outside space and time and processes information before it is given input and this accounts for what we think of as imagination and creativity.

marco_polo

monkeyfudge wrote: »

I'm an absolute atheist... but I do have a keen interest in the paranormal on a hobby level.

But generally it involves proving why locations aren't actually haunted and that there is a more plausible explanation for everything...

I guess I watched too much Scooby Doo as a kid... Velma was hot...

I think you're giving too much belief to quantum theory though... People seem to eager to believe in it to account for the unexplained because of it's more unique properties, when good old particle physics will do the job much better.

I have always liked the idea that the human brain is actually a quantum gravity computer though... it's a computer that acts outside space and time and processes information before it is given input and this accounts for what we think of as imagination and creativity.

Quantum theory is an integral part of particle physics. You sure you don't mean classical physics?

Anyways I agree with you that people seem to be unduly drawn to its wierdness to explain things at the macro level when there is no evidence whatsover to suggest that QT has even the slightest effect. BTW I also concur that Velma was hot

To the OP, for someone who professes to love science so much, you seem quite prepared to throw out out the window when it suits. Negative energy - have you personally discovered hypothetical Exotic Matter?

Red Hand

Loxosceles wrote: »

Because the power of the human mind to also affect the fabric of reality is not thoroughly researched and explored, group hypnosis or concentration can possibly manifest as well in physical events. I address this as a theoretical scientific possibility which would be based in quantum relationships and events.

Only the human mind? What about a chimp's mind or a Neanderthal's mind? Or a spider's mind? What is so special about the human mind that you think it will effect things at a quantum level, or will, as you seem to imply in the next paragraphs, generate physical changes through mere focus? How do you know that its not just wish fulfillment/coincidence?

monkeyfudge

Jeremiah 16:1 wrote: »

Only the human mind? What about a chimp's mind or a Neanderthal's mind? Or a spider's mind? What is so special about the human mind that you think it will effect things at a quantum level, or will, as you seem to imply in the next paragraphs, generate physical changes through mere focus? How do you know that its not just wish fulfillment/coincidence?

Well a side effect of our use of complicated tools and language seem to be an illusion of free will and sentience. It's something I don't think is quite present in other mammals and arachnids. As much as I love monkeys... I think humans are unique in this respect as we are actually capable of sitting around and questioning the nature of our existence.

That's not saying I think our 'mind' is capable of effecting anything outside of our own bodies other than through communication and physical interaction.





(Yep and clasical physics it is marco_polo.)

Red Hand

A chimp's an ape, not a monkey.:pac:

monkeyfudge

Jeremiah 16:1 wrote: »

A chimp's an ape, not a monkey.:pac:

I'd moved on from chimps in that part of my post because monkeys are more awesome!

Galvasean

monkeyfudge wrote: »

I'd moved on from chimps in that part of my post because monkeys are more awesome!

BS. You'd never see a lowly monkey become a bona fide detective!

MackDeToaster

i have to disagree, this seems more akin to a 'ghost of the gaps' than anything scientific. Quantum mechamics has been a great source for new age woo, but that's all it is, woo. Trying to conflate it with macroscopic effects and the paranormal is nothing more than wishful conjecture, especially seeing as this gap is one of the biggest problems in physics right now.

The human mind is a product of the fabric of reality and matter and, without evidence, I won't believe any claims that it can change reality in any way other than subjectively, i.e. the far more interesting and currently only viable answers to the 'paranormal' lie in psychology and neuroscience.

I will say that I had a huge fascination with the paranormal for years myself and I spent an awful lot of time on it, but now I dismiss it as, well, non-factual. There's plenty of claims and wishful thinking but when it comes to walking the walk, there's no evidence whatsoever - it's somewhat like an M&M, it looks good way down there in your hand, but put it in your mouth for closer inspection and it just melts away. And fills you full of crap which is hard to shift :pac: IMO.

ChocolateSauce

Well, since we're approaching it from an impartial scientific perspective...

It is an interesting hypothesis that maybe our thoughts can cause unknown quantum effects, and it is certainly not such a stupid idea as to be dismissed without a constructive look at it.

Although the power of the human mind to interact with the fabric of space-time hasn't been exhaustively researched, there have been countless experiments which examine space-time and the human mind separately, and none of them (to the best of my knowledge) have pointed to any mutual relationship, nor have there been any mysterious results which could concievably be explained by referring to the domain of the other.

Not only that, but there is no known theoretical mechanism on how the molecules in our brains could affect the quantum world. We can only affect the quantum world using large amounts of energy and large and complex machines. There is also no evidence whatsoever that we can affect the world with our minds, so the concept of "negative will" is fanciful. Unlike the above, there have been studies done with the explicit intent of investigating the power of the mind over matter.

2) Light emissions definitely interfere with negative energy drawing and exchange, maybe photon interference on some quantum level? A root of why spooky things like the dark?

This statement is dependent of the assumption that negative energy exists. As to why spooky things like the dark, maybe they don't like EM radiation of the UV-visible spectrum? Photons of light are present everywhere, even in total darkness (here the photons are not visible to the human eye, they are infra-red or microwaves). I think a better explaination
as to why they like the dark is that in places where we can't see, we are more prone to fear and fanciful notions.

As a scientist, I do not think consciousness and energy can concentrate itself in the physical world after death depending on the strength of will? It is a basic law of physics that energy does the opposite of concentrate, it disperses. Consciousness is, as far as science can tell us so far, nothing more than complex chemical reactions in our brains. Also, your will ceases to be when you're asleep, how about when you're dead?

So in summary, ghosts not only go against everything we know to be true, there is also no evidence for them. They are a logical improbability, there is no suggested mechanism for them which conforms to the laws of physics, and there are aspects of them which actually go against what we know to be possible. There are also other explainations for people's experiences which do not have the limitations listed above.

kiffer

Magical thinking with some scientific terms stuck in for good measure.

I don't see why your hypothesis that gods are not real but ghosts are would hold any water... Even if the human mind and quantum physics worked together like that...

It sounds like you think gods are created by belief... And therefore exist as a manifestation of group belief imprinted on the fabric of the universe... In the similar way to which you think ghosts are generated.

How can someone that thinks belief/stronge emotions can create on going external physical manifestations call themselves a hardcore atheist/skeptic?

studiorat

monkeyfudge wrote: »

I guess I watched too much Scooby Doo as a kid... Velma was hot...

you clearly know nothing of what you talk about.

Daphney was hot, Velma was a dog...