Four Kings

Sammo13

Nearly finished reading the 'four kings'. Book about the 9 fights between duran, leonard, Hearns & Hagler.

I'll have to get my hands on the Leonard/Hearns I fight and the Hagler/Hearns 3 rounds of mayhem.

Ali had some great rivals, but for me this was the greatest era of boxing when the welterweight and middleweight fighter were in their prime.

Agree?

cowzerp

Agreed all the way..

walshb

I disagree. There were two allt ime great welters, one all time great LW/Welter and one
all time great middle; throw in Benitez, Kalule, Mugabi, Cuevas and a couple of others. Hey, Clay/Ali met the best heavies for two decades in an era that is
considered the best in heavyweight history. There were a dozen at least men in this reign
that are HOF fighters!

No comparison, great, but not greater than Clay/Ali's reign!

As for the 9 fights; lets be real. There were 7 in total. Can
anyone really include the 1989 Leonard-Hearns and the Leonard-Duran
rubber match? These were when all three were past peak and the rubber
match with Duran-Leonard was a farce!

poundhound

Disagree about Ali and the heavyweight division, I mean have you seen the fight with Al Blue Louie? I for one think the era of the 4 kings was boxings golden age. Hearns was always my favourite, great boxer and could fight like a bulldog too. The 4 Kings book is fantastic. The era of Eubank, Benn and Collins was a great era in British boxing and the Benn V Gerald McClellan fight in 1995 is still the best boxing match Ive ever seen.Just purchased a DVD from Amazon.co.uk showcasing the Hearns, Leonard, Duran and Hagler era.

walshb

poundhound wrote: »

Disagree about Ali and the heavyweight division, I mean have you seen the fight with Al Blue Louie? I for one think the era of the 4 kings was boxings golden age. Hearns was always my favourite, great boxer and could fight like a bulldog too. The 4 Kings book is fantastic. The era of Eubank, Benn and Collins was a great era in British boxing and the Benn V Gerald McClellan fight in 1995 is still the best boxing match Ive ever seen.Just purchased a DVD from Amazon.co.uk showcasing the Hearns, Leonard, Duran and Hagler era.

Yes, ONE fight of many many fights Ali and others participated in the 70's.
The era was loaded with HOF fighters.

Ray, Marvin, Roberto and Tommy were the cream and that's about it!
And, Ali had far more competitive fights than the others.

Ray boxed a Blown Up lightweight twice and Hearns once.
The era lasted maybe three-five years.
Hagler beat a blown up lightweight and a blown
up welter and LOST to an inactive blown up welter.

The final two fights (Ray-Tommy&Ray-Roberto) were money spinners and
were not top draw. All were past their peaks

Ali met and bet a host of great and natural heavies.

poundhound

Obviously Im not doubting Ali's credentials, he was the greatest after all. But in my opinion the welterweight - super-middleweight divisions are the most exciting. Fighters at these weights are fast and powerful whereas the heavyweights are generally slower and more sluggish. Ali was the exception, he moved with the grace and speed of a boxer from a lower weight. Mike Tyson was the same, exceptionally fast for his weight division. No heavyweight has matched Tyson for sheer dynamics since.We can agree to disagree, but Hearns-Leonard-Duran and Hagler were tagged the four Kings for a reason.

MBC

There is a dvd out called "Fabulous Four". With all the fights between the Leonard, Duran, Hearns & Hagler...........excellent dvd.

walshb

MBC wrote: »

There is a dvd out called "Fabulous Four". With all the fights between the Leonard, Duran, Hearns & Hagler...........excellent dvd.

Have that; well worth a purchase!

poundhound

Ordered it on Amazon Saturday last. Cant wait!

Sammo13

Must get that DVD.

I recently watched the thiller in Manilla doc on channel 4, thought Ali came across pretty bad in it. I watched alot of Ali fights and the last frazier fight seemed the most brutal, but its funny any old fights of Ali don't look much good 35 years later, yet you watch Hearns/Leonard or Hearns/Hagler 28/25 years on ,its timeless, edge of the sit stuff.

The Ali/Frazier 3 fight was compelling and brutal, but trully its 2 boxers out on their feet after 6/7 rounds, holding, unable to get out the way of each other shots, even ali/foreman rumble in the jungle was only remembered for the rope a dope, but it was not entertaining..

For prue boxing entertainment, the four kings were the golden era!!:rolleyes:

walshb

Frazier to me came across worse. He was gloating at Ali's health problems.
Bitter bitter man. Ali probably did take things too far and I don't think he realised the effect it would have on Joe. Frazier also continued to call Ali by his slave name Clay. Bad form!

Hangballlouie

walshb wrote: »

Frazier to me came across worse. He was gloating at Ali's health problems.
Bitter bitter man. Ali probably did take things too far and I don't think he realised the effect it would have on Joe. Frazier also continued to call Ali by his slave name Clay. Bad form!

I have to to disagree with you Walsh about Frazier coming across worse. I thought it was a very balanced doc, and to be honest reafirmed my feelings towards Ali. The man wasn't a nice bloke and his treatment of Joe was disgraceful.

He was a racist pure and simple. The man is one of the best boxers ever but not a good person. He is only seen in a good light by non-boxing fans becouse of his illness.

To me Ali will always be a great boxer, but an awful person.

foams

Ive also seen that documentary,and Ali did say some terrible things
to Joe, but Joe came across terrible ,really bitter and i found it a bit
disturbing to hear him say stuff like that at this stage in his life.

walshb

hangballlouie wrote: »

I have to to disagree with you Walsh about Frazier coming across worse. I thought it was a very balanced doc, and to be honest reafirmed my feelings towards Ali. The man wasn't a nice bloke and his treatment of Joe was disgraceful.

He was a racist pure and simple. The man is one of the best boxers ever but not a good person. He is only seen in a good light by non-boxing fans becouse of his illness.

To me Ali will always be a great boxer, but an awful person.

An awful person?

How can you say that when the world sees him as the most
charismatic and colorful athlete of all time.

Was he perfect? NO; but he was living during a time when
black folks were treated like absolute dirt. That has to have an
impact. He was a very good person with flaws like everyone else; it's just that
being the worlds most famous person, those flaws were OUT there for all to see

Hangballlouie

walshb wrote: »

An awful person?

How can you say that when the world sees him as the most
charismatic and colorful athlete of all time.

Was he perfect? NO; but he was living during a time when
black folks were treated like absolute dirt. That has to have an
impact.

So his answer to the mistreatment of the black community was to be a racist against a man of his own colour, let's be honest here. He had charisma, that is of no doubt, but look at the old interviews of him and the racist undercurrent in his language is incredible against anyone who didn't believe in his views.

Joe in my opinion has a right to feel agrieved. Maybe he can be a little strong in his views on Ali, but old wounds die hard!

walshb

Like I said, he wasn't perfect. He did exhibit racist views; but I think he was a good and warm and charismatic person who would take every person as he found them. A lot of the slagging with Joe was to build up the event; Ali simply took it a little too far; but he really DID like Joe. He just over
stepped the mark and din't realise the effect it had on Joe.

Joe is still a petty and bitter man to this day. He cannot forgive or try to forget!

Hangballlouie

Ok, i can see your point, maybe Joe should move on but you can see why he feels like he does. Uncle Tom might seem a throwaway remark to many, but it is probably the worse thing one black man can say to another.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Uncle_Tom

On the issue of the better era, I do agree with Walsh about the Ali/Frazier/Foreman etc era was the better. I could probably say that I really liked 3-4 of the nine fights from the Four Kings.

walshb

The doc made out Frazier was 'good' to Ali and all that during his exile. Yes, he was, but it was all for business reasons and to keep Ali in line for the mega 1971 clash. If Joe really was genuine with Ali; he would have called the man by his name. Joe always insisted on referring to Ali as Clay. That to me is NOT a decent or genuine friend!

joepenguin

How do you think Oscar De La Hoya would fair if he mixed it up with the four kings between lightweight and middleweight?

At lightweight vs Duran

at welterweight vs Ray Leonard

at light middle vs Hearns

at middle vs Hagler

walshb

joepenguin wrote: »

How do you think Oscar De La Hoya would fair if he mixed it up with the four kings between lightweight and middleweight?

At lightweight vs Duran

at welterweight vs Ray Leonard

at light middle vs Hearns

at middle vs Hagler

He stands no chance of victory against any of them and will be in survival mode throughout. He is just not up to their level and doesn't hit hard enough from welter
to middle to trouble Ray, Tommy or Marvin. These guys break him and Duran is all around too much!