Heading to Melbourne!!

opelmanta

Hi all. Im heading to Oz in Feb. Flying to Melb first. Has anyone been there before? Im just looking for info on living and working there and what the life in general there is like.

dSTAR

opelmanta wrote: »

...what the life in general there is like.

Melbourne is the hippest and most cultured city in Australia.

Thats my (un)biased opinion

Flairpinnedme

life in melbourne is awesome

Boom_Bap

Melbourne is in fact awesome. Hit up St. Kilda for work and accomodation, great spot.

One Cold Hand

St. Kilda is a good area to pick up bar work or waitressing jobs, if that's the type of work you're after.

It's also one of the most expensive areas to rent in Melbourne. If money is an issue you might be better renting a bit outside St. Kilda.

Crumble Froo

Boom_Bap wrote: »

Melbourne is in fact awesome. Hit up St. Kilda for work and accomodation, great spot.

great to hear, that's where i've been looking at moving to. mate reckons it's full of students/studenty types just livin up the beach life and hangin... another mate reckons there's tonnes of old peeps there too (which is good, cos i work with the elderly), looks like an overall good spot...

One Cold Hand wrote: »

St. Kilda is a good area to pick up bar work or waitressing jobs, if that's the type of work you're after.

It's also one of the most expensive areas to rent in Melbourne. If money is an issue you might be better renting a bit outside St. Kilda.

bar and waitressing i could do... but expensive? i hadn't anticipate dthat bit

torquay and ocean grove were both spots recommended to me as well as st kilda's when i was asking about moving over there.

dSTAR

Crumble Froo wrote: »

torquay and ocean grove were both spots recommended to me as well as st kilda's when i was asking about moving over there.

Being into surfing as you are you will have to hit Torquay or Ocean Grove because you most definitely wont be finding any surf in St Kilda.

preddy

Hated Melbourne, That was the experience of the week and a half I spent there recently, bars and beaches just not upto par.
Was in St kilda for 3 days supposed to be 2 weeks - outta there
then City for a week, just too much like home like being in bray or a sea side town back home..... back to Sydney for me Sunshine and cool beaches and ppl
Thats my humble.....

missannik

^ ^ ^ Thats a shame you didn't enjoy it. But seems to me that if you go to St Kilda thinking its the best beach and area, then yes, you will leave disappointed. But tsk, tsk for saying Sydneysiders are cool- for shame! :P

Crumble Foo- Torquay, Ocean Grove, Lorne are great places! They're well out of the city centre, which isn't a bad thing. But with summer coming it could either be a great place to work or not- depends how many others in your position are after all the seasonal bar work. But the beaches are ace. You could also consider Phillip Island, but it depends how far out you want to get.

dSTAR

preddy wrote: »

Hated Melbourne, That was the experience of the week and a half I spent there recently...

Not sure why all the flotsam and jetsam wash up on St Kilda, hang around for a while and take a trip or two into the city and think that constitutes having done Melbourne.

There is so much more to see and do in Melbourne. You could try expanding your horizons and checking out some of the world class restaurants in the many different suburbs each with their own unique vibe such as Richmond, Fitzroy, South Yarra, Williamstown, Brunswick amongst many other places.

Or you could visit the Yarra Valley and sample some of the finest wine in the world in wineries such as De Bortoli, Killara Estate. St Hubert's and the many other wineries dotted around this scenic area. But this is probably far too cultured for you.

There is so much more going on underneath the surface its just a pity that you like so many Irish people only get to see a glimpse (if even) of whats really going on and think that its all about getting pissed, sunning yourself like a pig on some overcrowded and over-rated beaches like Bondi and then flopping down in some cheap ass hostel after you have filled up on cheap piss and junk food.

Didn't mean for this to turn into a rant or seem like I am calling anyone out but seriously anyone who compares Melbourne with a place like Bray is obviously straight off the boat and hasn't a bloody clue or is deliberately flaming.

preddy

dSTAR wrote: »

Not sure why all the flotsam and jetsam wash up on St Kilda, hang around for a while and take a trip or two into the city and think that constitutes having done Melbourne.

There is so much more to see and do in Melbourne. You could try expanding your horizons and checking out some of the world class restaurants in the many different suburbs each with their own unique vibe such as Richmond, Fitzroy, South Yarra, Williamstown, Brunswick amongst many other places.

Or you could visit the Yarra Valley and sample some of the finest wine in the world in wineries such as De Bortoli, Killara Estate. St Hubert's and the many other wineries dotted around this scenic area. But this is probably far too cultured for you.

There is so much more going on underneath the surface its just a pity that you like so many Irish people only get to see a glimpse (if even) of whats really going on and think that its all about getting pissed, sunning yourself like a pig on some overcrowded and over-rated beaches like Bondi and then flopping down in some cheap ass hostel after you have filled up on cheap piss and junk food.

Didn't mean for this to turn into a rant or seem like I am calling anyone out but seriously anyone who compares Melbourne with a place like Bray is obviously straight off the boat and hasn't a bloody clue or is deliberately flaming.

How very insulting to assume that I am an "alcoholic pig". I am very well travelled, obviously Melbourne is your first little holiday away from mammy and daddy and your blown away by the second class accom and beaches that you seem to have settled into.
Im sure the people asking these questions are not interested in high classed dining and expensive wine tasting which can be aquired back home.

Getting back to the question:
For the rest of the world - lets get back to Sydney there are 3 other beaches within walking distance of Bondi including the secluded Tamarama and the beatiful clear calm waters of Bronte.
Beaches aside Sydney is a much more vibrante city more bars shops and wait did i mention the better weather?

dSTAR

preddy wrote: »

I am very well travelled...

Sure sounds like it. Just refresh my memory again ... how long was it you spent in Melbourne? :rolleyes:

preddy wrote:

obviously Melbourne is your first little holiday away from mammy and daddy and your blown away by the second class accom and beaches that you seem to have settled into.

Probably not a good idea to make assumptions. You will find that they have a habit of coming back and biting you in the ass when you least expect it and making you look rather foolish.

Crumble Froo

dSTAR wrote: »

Being into surfing as you are you will have to hit Torquay or Ocean Grove because you most definitely wont be finding any surf in St Kilda.

dammit. chick i know lived there reckoned there was surf there. *edits flatematefinders details*...

missannik wrote: »

Crumble Foo- Torquay, Ocean Grove, Lorne are great places! They're well out of the city centre, which isn't a bad thing. But with summer coming it could either be a great place to work or not- depends how many others in your position are after all the seasonal bar work. But the beaches are ace. You could also consider Phillip Island, but it depends how far out you want to get.

ooh, lorne is one i hadnt heard mentioned before. will check it out. problem is, i dont wana be that far outta city centre, have no idea what kinda work ill get... ideally with kids, second option old people, third option anything else, fourth office work. so dont wana cut off too many options. but regarding this experience (if it goes ahead) to just tkae time out and just follow my hobby, and just take some serious 'me' time out... so over the 9-5 thing at the mo.

thanks for all this... ill probably come back with a whole heap of questions once ive seen the place for myself - i have a mate to bum with while im gettin on my feet, but i dont wana impose too much, or too long.

but just got an email from immigration, and doesnt look like my thing's gonna be completed in time anyway :rolleyes::(

lady_j

preddy wrote: »

Hated Melbourne, That was the experience of the week and a half I spent there recently, bars and beaches just not upto par.
Was in St kilda for 3 days supposed to be 2 weeks - outta there
then City for a week, just too much like home like being in bray or a sea side town back home..... back to Sydney for me Sunshine and cool beaches and ppl
Thats my humble.....

back to all your irish mates in coogee??:P to be fair if you want beaches for something other than surfing then I say stick to Sydney but you obviously went to the wrong bars if you believe nightlife in Syd is better than Melbourne!!!

One Cold Hand

Crumble Froo wrote: »

dammit. chick i know lived there reckoned there was surf there. *edits flatematefinders details*...



ooh, lorne is one i hadnt heard mentioned before. will check it out. problem is, i dont wana be that far outta city centre, have no idea what kinda work ill get... ideally with kids, second option old people, third option anything else, fourth office work. so dont wana cut off too many options. but regarding this experience (if it goes ahead) to just tkae time out and just follow my hobby, and just take some serious 'me' time out... so over the 9-5 thing at the mo.

thanks for all this... ill probably come back with a whole heap of questions once ive seen the place for myself - i have a mate to bum with while im gettin on my feet, but i dont wana impose too much, or too long.

but just got an email from immigration, and doesnt look like my thing's gonna be completed in time anyway :rolleyes::(

Torquay and Lorne are both quite a bit out of Melbourne. They're both also quite small and I'd be wary of how much work would be available there. I'd say they're really only busy for the summer season, and then get quite quiet. I'd recommend living in Melbourne, and taking trips down to Torquay (it's an hour and half drive) for weekend surfing. Or you could even take trips down in the evening, if you were to finish work by 5 you could probably an hour or 2 in before dark. Belles Beach and Jan Juc are also just down the road from Torquay so there's a bit of variety (depending on how good you are! I personally wouldn't venture near Belles Beach, for fear of looking like a twat, and killing myself!)

There's no surfing in St. Kilda. You basically need to go out either side of Port Phillip, around the headlands to find surf. It's a popular Kite Surfing spot however, which is where your friend might have gotten mixed up?

One Cold Hand

preddy wrote: »

Hated Melbourne, That was the experience of the week and a half I spent there recently, bars and beaches just not upto par.
Was in St kilda for 3 days supposed to be 2 weeks - outta there
then City for a week, just too much like home like being in bray or a sea side town back home..... back to Sydney for me Sunshine and cool beaches and ppl
Thats my humble.....

Fair enough. Each to their own. From experince of speaking to people, there seems to be two categories of opinion. There's the people who live in Sydand then visit Melb. They hate Melb and love Syd. Then there's the people who live in Melb and visit Syd. They love Melb and hate Syd.

I haven't been to Sydney, so I'm not in a position to judge. But from what I hear from people who have lived there, Sydney is quite pretentious. Melbourne life seems to be a bit more laid back and chilled, which is the way I like it.

Also there's no amusement arcades in St. Kilda, so it's nothing like Bray!;)

dSTAR

preddy wrote: »

How very insulting to assume that I am an "alcoholic pig". I am very well travelled...

They are your words not mine. I deduced from your post that you are obviously a backpacker and bars were quite high on your list of things to do whilst visiting Melbourne or anywhere in Australia for that matter. From my own experience the times that I have been out for a night out in St Kilda the majority of the people I see spread out on the streets are either:

Homeless people
Junkies who have OD'd on heroin
Drunken Irish or English backpackers

Don't get me wrong I like a drink. When I was younger going out and having a good time was my top priority. But things change. You grow up, get married, have kids maybe even go through a divorce which can sometimes make you a bit too reliant on the grog. After a while getting absolutely loaded doesn't seem like such a big deal any more. I admit I can be a bit cynical at times.

FYI I have lived in many countries since I was a kid and have traveled quite a bit in that time. I have learnt that you can never really know a place after only a week or two. It is a ridiculous as saying that the movie Australia reminded you of the movie The Field. They are two completely different movies (and places) each with their own merits. Worse still is making the assumption after watching only 10 minutes of the film and walking out of the theater with your mind made up.

OP maybe you didn't realize that there was such strong rivalry between Sydney and Melbourne. Of course I am going to defend Melbourne because I live here and my family are from here. But to say that Sydneysiders are much cooler than Melbournites is as nonsensical as saying that Australians are cooler that Irish people. Capiche?

hussey

One Cold Hand wrote: »

Fair enough. Each to their own. From experince of speaking to people, there seems to be two categories of opinion. There's the people who live in Sydand then visit Melb. They hate Melb and love Syd. Then there's the people who live in Melb and visit Syd. They love Melb and hate Syd.

Nail, hammer, head. I couldn't have put it better myself, I've been here a few years now and have noticed this trend.

I love sydney and like melbourne, everyone I talk to says melbourne was great, I've been there twice and liked it, stayed in richmond first then city - good vibe to the place but still prefer sydney (I'm not a beach person far from it)
Sydney CBD/East suburbs are very pretentious yes, but there are cracker of some bars around paddo/surry hills, balmain & newtown. The only problem is that unless you know someone you won't see these bars. as a traveller people tend to stick with what they know/advice from other travellers/guide books. So when people first visit sydney they think of bondi, why? Because that is where everyone is! It is like dublin, when travellers go there they don't say "Oh I heard there are great bars in swords" they tend to flock to temple bar.

Melbourne can also be pretentious in the "Oh you don't know about bar X, of it is so cool, only a handful of people know about it" and since all the bars are down some back street alleyway, one can forgive travellers for just sticking to St Kilda or the city. I was lucky that I stayed with friends the first time and got to see the suburbs and had a really good time, What I like about melbourne is there are no Pokies, they are everywhere in sydney and are a sham.

So OP enjoy your stay there, you'll love it don't worry, there are some cracker of some areas, St Kilda is a backpacker area, so this is where people tend to land, this can be a good spot for making new friends etc, as fellow travellers stick together. There are also some really good areas st richmond, great shopping there if that is your thing!

dSTAR

Crumble Froo wrote: »

dammit. chick i know lived there reckoned there was surf there...

Maybe windsurfing. There are zero waves in St Kilda / Port Melbourne because it is in a bay.

Lorne is nice to get away for Christmas or Easter which is when the madding crowd visit but it wouldn't be the kind of place that you could live year round because it is dead in the off season. I would look at living in Melbourne and taking w/end trips to Torquay to get the surf in.

preddy

dSTAR wrote: »

They are your words not mine. I deduced from your post that you are obviously a backpacker and bars were quite high on your list of things to do whilst visiting Melbourne or anywhere in Australia for that matter. From my own experience the times that I have been out for a night out in St Kilda the majority of the people I see spread out on the streets are either:

Id say more a Flashpacker, im in my late 20's so sure a nice bar at the end of the day is great and we are on holiday after all (yes an Irish Bar).
Ive been there partied with the best of them but now a quiet bar is fine for me. (Although I was in Scruffy Murphys last nite "Feels dirty inside") thats Alcohol for ya

dSTAR wrote: »

Homeless people
Junkies who have OD'd on heroin
Drunken Irish or English backpackers

Don't get me wrong I like a drink. When I was younger going out and having a good time was my top priority. But things change. You grow up, get married, have kids maybe even go through a divorce which can sometimes make you a bit too reliant on the grog. After a while getting absolutely loaded doesn't seem like such a big deal any more. I admit I can be a bit cynical at times.

FYI I have lived in many countries since I was a kid and have traveled quite a bit in that time. I have learnt that you can never really know a place after only a week or two. It is a ridiculous as saying that the movie Australia reminded you of the movie The Field. They are two completely different movies (and places) each with their own merits. Worse still is making the assumption after watching only 10 minutes of the film and walking out of the theater with your mind made up.

Honestly you can see alot in a city in 10 days sure you can't get the living here feeling and know everything and the best spots but I knew I loved Buenas Aires after a 5 day stay and i knew i Melbourne wasn't for me.

dSTAR wrote: »

OP maybe you didn't realize that there was such strong rivalry between Sydney and Melbourne. Of course I am going to defend Melbourne because I live here and my family are from here. But to say that Sydneysiders are much cooler than Melbournites is as nonsensical as saying that Australians are cooler that Irish people. Capiche?

Maybe you picked me up wrong I was just trying to offer advise from the other side, the experience I had when visited Melbourne and coming from Sydney first I guess that what One Cold Hand said is correct we caught the Sydney bug, after 3 months of solid travelling we were very ready to actually unpack our backpacks when we left Syd for Mel and landed in a clicky hostel full of long termers in St Kilda which seemed to have half the people we thought we were leaving behind in Ireland.

Anyway OP just come over and you choose

missannik

hussey wrote: »

What I like about melbourne is there are no Pokies, they are everywhere in sydney and are a sham.

If only that were true! Many of my old haunts have now been ruined by the pokies, even my local shopping centre has a pokies. T'is a damn shame. :mad:

hussey wrote: »

Melbourne can also be pretentious in the "Oh you don't know about bar X, of it is so cool, only a handful of people know about it" and since all the bars are down some back street alleyway, one can forgive travellers for just sticking to St Kilda or the city.

True. But in my view thats one of the best things about Melbourne, a stroll down some dodgy alley and finding a gem of a place.

One Cold Hand

missannik wrote: »

True. But in my view thats one of the best things about Melbourne, a stroll down some dodgy alley and finding a gem of a place.

Yeah agreed. I don't think it's a conscious attempt to be pretentious, or to make the places exlusive by hiding them down alleyways. It just happens that the best bars are hard to find.

The Sweeper

Sydney is the tall, stunning, suntanned blonde with the huge boobs.

Melbourne is the interesting redhead with the sharp sense of humor and the wicked grin.

dSTAR

preddy wrote: »

Ive been there partied with the best of them but now a quiet bar is fine for me. (Although I was in Scruffy Murphys last nite "Feels dirty inside") thats Alcohol for ya :-)

Haha hence the name. You will find that most of the Irish bars here are pretty tacky compared to the bars in Ireland. The only one that I really liked was Molly Blooms in Port Melbourne. It was filled with tradeys and first and second generation Irish who had been here for years. Unfortunately it closed down a couple of years ago.

OK doll lets just agree to disagree. I do actually like Sydney because it is more like an English or Irish city. Indeed there is no shortage of good spots there. Most foreign visitors fly into Sydney over Melbourne and unfortunately don't get to see what M-town has to offer. Melbourne being my home for the past decade reminds me of my previous residence of San Francisco with its trams and laid back lifestyle not to mention its huge array of dining establishments.

The Sweeper

Funny you say that. I've described Melbourne as a cross between Amsterdam and San Francisco - just the feel and appearance you get from the place.

dSTAR

Minesajackdaniels wrote: »

Funny you say that. I've described Melbourne as a cross between Amsterdam and San Francisco - just the feel and appearance you get from the place.

I have lived in both places so what you say is not far wrong.

BTW that analogy describing Sydney as a tall, stunning, suntanned blonde with huge boobs and Melbourne as interesting redhead with the sharp sense of humor and the wicked grin. was sheer brilliance.

For whats it worth I always went for the interesting redheads who you could actually have a decent chat with over the chickie babes with big boobs who were all show and no go

preddy

dSTAR wrote: »

OK doll lets just agree to disagree..

You stay over your side of the fence and ill stay on mine Tis why we are all different.

dSTAR wrote: »

I do actually like Sydney because it is more like an English or Irish city. Indeed there is no shortage of good spots there. Most foreign visitors fly into Sydney over Melbourne and unfortunately don't get to see what M-town has to offer. Melbourne being my home for the past decade reminds me of my previous residence of San Francisco with its trams and laid back lifestyle not to mention its huge array of dining establishments.

The Corkman isnt a bad pub in Mel big quiet on a friday night but good live music sessions etc
Now San Fran thats one cool place spent 2 weeks there loved it.
In fairness I wouldnt really recommend Dublin to people wanting to see Ireland but hey thats everyones first stop.....

dSTAR

preddy wrote: »

You stay over your side of the fence and ill stay on mine Tis why we are all different.

True true. Just one question neighbor ... is this fence quite high because I do like to swan around au naturel occasionally?

preddy wrote: »

The Corkman isnt a bad pub in Mel big quiet on a friday night but good live music sessions

I haven't been there before but it looks like it could be one of the better Irish pubs. Srsly tho' next time you are in Melbourne I will take you to some cool places and show you the hidden side that many 'flash packers' as you call them wouldn't even know existed.

preddy wrote: »

In fairness I wouldnt really recommend Dublin to people wanting to see Ireland but hey thats everyones first stop.....

Totally agree. Unless you fly in through Shannon and end up in Limerick which I definitely would NOT recommend!

The Sweeper

dSTAR wrote: »

I have lived in both places so what you say is not far wrong.

BTW that analogy describing Sydney as a tall, stunning, suntanned blonde with huge boobs and Melbourne as interesting redhead with the sharp sense of humor and the wicked grin. was sheer brilliance.

For whats it worth I always went for the interesting redheads who you could actually have a decent chat with over the chickie babes with big boobs who were all show and no go

Gotta admit, I've just jazzed up an analogy provided by a friend of mine who's also been to both places. She's dead on the nail though.

I like Melbourne as a place to sit in the back of a pub and swig beer and talk crap - Sydney is more 'scene to be seen'.

dSTAR

Minesajackdaniels wrote: »

Sydney is more 'scene to be seen'.

Plastic fantastic as I call it

missannik

dSTAR wrote: »

Totally agree. Unless you fly in through Shannon and end up in Limerick which I definitely would NOT recommend!

Hmmm... I liked Limerick. It reminded me of Melbourne, in a 90's Russell Street kinda way.

dSTAR

missannik wrote: »

Hmmm... I liked Limerick. It reminded me of Melbourne, in a 90's Russell Street kinda way.

OMG its not that bad is it?

missannik

^ ^ ^ lol. No not that bad... but indeed similar.

dSTAR

missannik wrote: »

^ ^ ^ lol. No not that bad... but indeed similar.

Must be the burnt out cars, broken windows and all those dilapidated and derelict buildings. According to Boardies from there they have cleaned up the city somewhat and it doesn't look so much like a bomb site.

I have never been to the city but passed through the outskirts coming from Shannon airport. I was with a German girl who needed to get off the coach and take a tinkle. Within 10 seconds of her stepping off she was mugged. Since then I have never had a desire to go back.

Crumble Froo

One Cold Hand wrote: »

Torquay and Lorne are both quite a bit out of Melbourne. They're both also quite small and I'd be wary of how much work would be available there. I'd say they're really only busy for the summer season, and then get quite quiet. I'd recommend living in Melbourne, and taking trips down to Torquay (it's an hour and half drive) for weekend surfing. Or you could even take trips down in the evening, if you were to finish work by 5 you could probably an hour or 2 in before dark. Belles Beach and Jan Juc are also just down the road from Torquay so there's a bit of variety (depending on how good you are! I personally wouldn't venture near Belles Beach, for fear of looking like a twat, and killing myself!)

There's no surfing in St. Kilda. You basically need to go out either side of Port Phillip, around the headlands to find surf. It's a popular Kite Surfing spot however, which is where your friend might have gotten mixed up?

thanks for the info there... im bummed about st kilda's not being a surf spot, but how and ever... torquay is sounding good now... though im still on flatmatefinders trying to find just *anywhere* near the sea, for decent price (ie, cheapest possible).

im looking for work in the care sector, hoping to avoid working in shops/restaurants/pubs etc, gonna do some more job hunting on that area once ive booked my flight (visa got approved today!). not particularly interested in the nightlife of where i live either, tbh... if i want to go into the city, there's always gonna be a bed for me there, but my plan so far revolves around surfing so much im too tired and/or busy to drink

dSTAR wrote: »

Maybe windsurfing. There are zero waves in St Kilda / Port Melbourne because it is in a bay.

Lorne is nice to get away for Christmas or Easter which is when the madding crowd visit but it wouldn't be the kind of place that you could live year round because it is dead in the off season. I would look at living in Melbourne and taking w/end trips to Torquay to get the surf in.

nay! no weekend trips. torquay, im gonna investigate more now... it looks quite promising, actually. i can't drive, so im limited to transport by public transport, which, when combined with 7"4 of surfboard, with sharp fins... is just bad. and really really embarassing. so im *going* to live by the beach. grrr!

Zambia

Crumble Froo wrote: »

nay! no weekend trips. torquay, im gonna investigate more now... it looks quite promising, actually. i can't drive, so im limited to transport by public transport, which, when combined with 7"4 of surfboard, with sharp fins... is just bad. and really really embarassing. so im *going* to live by the beach. grrr!

Mate i am currently in Ocean Grove the thirteenth beach was not bad today (some blokes surfed )if you really want to live on the coast give us a shout , you could live near here and work in Geelong.

I can let you know rents and possibly where to start for work

Sammag

Minesajackdaniels wrote: »

Sydney is the tall, stunning, suntanned blonde with the huge boobs.

Melbourne is the interesting redhead with the sharp sense of humor and the wicked grin.

Ha ha - similar to the ones I've heard:

"Sydney's the blonde Melbourne's the brunette, after 10 minutes of chatting to the blonde you get bored and end up marrying the brunette"

or that old chestnut:

"Melbourne's a lady, Sydney's a whore"

Mobooo

dSTAR wrote: »

Must be the burnt out cars, broken windows and all those dilapidated and derelict buildings. According to Boardies from there they have cleaned up the city somewhat and it doesn't look so much like a bomb site.

I have never been to the city but passed through the outskirts coming from Shannon airport. I was with a German girl who needed to get off the coach and take a tinkle. Within 10 seconds of her stepping off she was mugged. Since then I have never had a desire to go back.

Just cause you were in the wrong area id say(i admit there are plenty).... i dont like all this limerick bad mouthing and frankly i am getting sick of it in melbourne every irish person i see i get the same s*** from

The Sweeper

Which is a perfect example of why you should socialise with more than your own countrymen when you travel.

Take it easy, Mobooo, I don't want this thread to degenerate into a slanging match.