Jehovah's Witnesses

ChocolateSauce

Hey everyone, I was hoping to gather some perspectives from all across the board on The Jehovah's Witnesses sect of Christianity.

What is your opinion or perception of them?

I ask because I have conflicting views from two of my most trusted sources (both atheists), one who says they're one of the better denominations and one who says they're grade A crazy fundies. I thought I'd ask real people rather than go to various websites with their own agendas.

The Mad Hatter

It depends on the people. I've been bothered by a couple of them, but I work with two, and they're two of the nicest people I've ever met.

DKoala

ChocolateSauce wrote: »

I thought I'd ask real people rather than go to various websites with their own agendas.

So you chose the athiest board?

I have family who are JW's, one cousin of which I count as one of my best friends. The inevitable debate has come up once or twice but I prefer to ignore the issue since it can get a bit heated.

Although they're not the worst, I do find myself especially opposed to a lot of their views. Most arguments I've had with her involve rebuttles like "No people always interpret that part wrong, what that passage really means is..."

Although many are genuinely nice people (token disclaimer right there) I do find that they have qualities that set them a bit higher in the scale of "crazy fundie" than your average more mainstream religion member.

Dades

Chocolate, I'd move it to Christianity but the same people would reply.

*sigh*

I know nothing really about the JWs. They've never bothered me. Of course I'm thinking they probably have some nutty views.

Galvasean

I remember a few visited my school as part of religion class in 6th year (different guests each week!). They peddled the "God created fossils to test man's faith" line. It was really weird hearing the sound of about 40 heads swerving to look in my direction as if to say, "Take it Séan!" For that day I was the class hero.

Goduznt Xzst

They're pretty close to being a cult in my books. I know a fair bit about them, having family members that are either with them or ex-JW's.

Commonly known is their refusal of blood transfusions for themselves and their Children (again another Christian semantic issue, they view the word "abstain" in Acts 15:20 as literally meaning blood in all forms, whether it be for food or transfusion) Although when pushed as to whether they strictly avoid the meat of strangled animals as well they will give you a blank face. They also sight some other scriptures that back up this opinion that blood is holy and to be avoided... they make the illogical leap that since they didn't have blood transfusions back in the day of the bible that the avoidance of eating it must cross over to the injection of it nowadays.

Aside from this they don't celebrate anything... I mean anything, not easter, xmas, birthdays, new year... etc. They have this thing once a year that they call a celebration, called "The Passover", where they pass around some bread and wine that represents Jesus' body and blood. My cousin will usually invite me to this thing (I think they are told to invite whoever they know) so one year I went out of curiousity... weirdest experience of my life, they all sit solemnly as some speaker talks about Jesus sacrifice and how only 144,000 will be going to heaven, the rest will be living on Earth, perfect like Adam and Eve. If you a member of this 144,000, you are told in a dream that you will be going to heaven... supposedly the world will end after the last member of this number has died (I remember being weirded out that my cousin knew how many where left, and that it had to only be a few more years until the world was destroyed, he was happy about this? Like he was looking forward to God killing billions of people) What I found so weird was, that in no way was this a "celebration", everyone just sat there quiet, prayed, passed Jesus body and blood around then chatted for a bit and went there separate ways.

Aside from this, what really makes me think they are a cult, is the pressure they put on people to conform or be banished. By banished I mean literally, my cousin relayed stories of how families would kick out their children if they left the religion. My cousin himself, had to completely stop associating with a friend he had from childhood because he stopped knocking on peoples doors and going to the 5 hours of meetings each week. What was odd is that he obeyed without hesitation. Any religious organization that wields the power to tear apart families and friendships on command is a cult imo.

The oddest part of this though, is that my cousin can associate with me no problem. But he said if I where to join the religion, get baptized into it, and then leave that he would be forced to never speak to me again

For the people here who say they know JW's. You don't, not at all. They put on a front when really they know if you don't listen to them and join them that God will kill you at Armageddon. Ask them for a lend of their "Revelation Book". No seriously, do. Have a read of it, it depicts in illustrated glory exactly what they imagine is going to happen to all you evil fornicators, drunkards and gamblers. Yeah, gambling is forbidden to, you like the occasional game of Poker? Yeah that's an instant ticket into eternal destruction, also, smoking, drinking more than a few pints, movies with bad language, nudity, violence... etc are all forbidden.

They also have a weird understanding of Genesis, they don't believe it was 6 literal days, but they also completely deny that humans evolved. They are open to the ideas of natural selection, but only to the point that it creates variances within a species and doesn't actually create a new species entirely.

Also they receive extensive training for going around preaching. My cousin actually told me that recently they are being advised to not even entertain staying on the door if the person is an Atheist. So if you want them to leave you alone, let them know this, or hang a sign below the knocker that reads something like "An Atheist lives here" I guess they know they have something to be scared of

DKoala

Goduznt Xzst wrote: »

Aside from this they don't celebrate anything... I mean anything, not easter, xmas, birthdays, new year... etc.

...

If you a member of this 144,000, you are told in a dream that you will be going to heaven...

Yeah I forgot about the not celebrating anything. I was confused as a kid when they kind of sidestepped the issue around Christmas time.

As for the 144,000 belief, I got the story from my cousin. Basically they are people who don't feel comfortable on earth, that they just "know" they belong to a higher purpose.
Those who believe to be one of the 144,000 head to their headquarters in New York, I was told they basically have a job for life there.
If you believe you're one of them its not much more than claiming you are to an Elder...

PDN

ChocolateSauce wrote: »

Hey everyone, I was hoping to gather some perspectives from all across the board on The Jehovah's Witnesses sect of Christianity.

I wouldn't see them as part of Christianity at all since they don't believe that Jesus is God.

You can have a lot of fun with JW's if you can read Greek, because they love to claim that mainstream Christian beliefs are based on faulty translation. Then you can pull your Greek Testament out of your pocket and say, "Can you just show me which word is translated wrongly?" Then they start backing away down the driveway.

Skyuser

They should go and get a job rather than spending there days knocking on peoples doors.

PDN

Skyuser wrote: »

They should go and get a job rather than spending there days knocking on peoples doors.

Most of them do have jobs. They knock on doors in their spare time.

Asiaprod

Very big in Japan. Used to have a family living next door who would have meetings that tended to get rather boisterous. Soon fixed that by plugging in my Trusty "Strat," cranking up the volume, and letting rip with a personal rendition of "All Along The Watchtower." It worked:), thank you Jimi. They never bothered me.

DublinWriter

I 'lost' a close family member to this cult several years ago.

We're not allowed to buy her kids birthday or Christmas presents.

As much as I dislike a lot of mainstream Christian churches, as least there is a robust history of debate and the questioning of authority and doctrine in many of them, especially Protestantism.

The central pillar of the Jehovah's seem to be to be a blind belief in their own doctrine.

I'll put it another way - they believe the earth is 12,000 years old and God put fossils in place to test our faith. Draw your own conclusions.

Rev Hellfire

We've a few families in our estate and I must say as individuals I certainly couldn't say anything negative against them. My son is very friendly with one of the kids and its a pleasure to have such well mannered kids about.

As for the whole not celebrating Christmas etc. I'm not sure I see the big deal as long as they don't interfere with others doing so. And again on that front I've seen no issues, certainly my son who's expecting Santa to arrive hasn't heard anything to the contrary from them.

We do get the odd ones calling to the door, and like all door callers I find if you're polite to them but close the conversation they'll leave with no problem and neither side is put out.

That said I'd disagree with some of the medical stances they have, but then I disagree with a lot of people on a lot of things.

Blackhorse Slim

Asiaprod wrote: »

Very big in Japan. Used to have a family living next door who would have meetings that tended to get rather boisterous. Soon fixed that by plugging in my Trusty "Strat," cranking up the volume, and letting rip with a personal rendition of "All Along The Watchtower." It worked:), thank you Jimi. They never bothered me.

Asiaprod, I'm surprised at you, being a Buddhist. That was wholly unappropriate.






Sympathy for the Devil would have been much better.




But yeah, JW=crazies.

oeb

One of my friends in school was a JW. He used to smoke, and he told me once that if his dad ever found out he would be killed (metaphorically), as smoking a cigerette to a JW was just as bad as taking a few E's or something.

On the other hand, his parents had absolutly no problem with him drinking (we were 14 or 15 at the time). They all ended up leaving the religion a few years later though.

Any time the JW's call over I chat away to them. Oddly enough, I find it very rare that they actually try to preach at the door. They normally just give out their magazines and say "Sure if you have any questions just make sure to ask me next time". Mind you, they know I am an atheist so they are probably just trying to take the passive route.

anti-venom

DKoala wrote: »

Yeah I forgot about the not celebrating anything. I was confused as a kid when they kind of sidestepped the issue around Christmas time.

As for the 144,000 belief, I got the story from my cousin. Basically they are people who don't feel comfortable on earth, that they just "know" they belong to a higher purpose.
Those who believe to be one of the 144,000 head to their headquarters in New York, I was told they basically have a job for life there.
If you believe you're one of them its not much more than claiming you are to an Elder...

This number of 144,000 comes from the book of revelations and refers, I think, to that amount of male virgins who will be saved. Incidentally, Charles Manson also hit on that biblical passage and envisioned that his 'family' would multiply to 144,000 before taking over the world after the battle of 'helter skelter'.

Ah well, at least we're allowed to call him a raving lunatic.......

Mark Hamill

Goduznt Xzst wrote: »

since they didn't have blood transfusions back in the day of the bible that the avoidance of eating it must cross over to the injection of it nowadays.

Goduznt Xzst wrote: »

Yeah, gambling is forbidden to,

Hmm, aren't they taking a chance anytime they need blood but don't take it? Taking a chance that god will save them. Seems like gambling to me.

Goduznt Xzst wrote: »

So if you want them to leave you alone, let them know this, or hang a sign below the knocker that reads something like "An Atheist lives here" I guess they know they have something to be scared of

I'm going to get a big "BEWARE OF THE ATHEIST" sign

PDN wrote:

Most of them do have jobs. They knock on doors in their spare time.

They should go and get a hobby rather than spending there days knocking on peoples doors

Malari

In my experience they thrive on the needs of vulnerable people, like most cults. They lure you in in order to trap you and insidiously separate you from your income, independence and belongings.

They got a member of my extended family. She married into them, after a difficult first marriage, which resulted in a harder second marriage and losing her house, after the abusive husband persuaded her to sign over the deeds.

Obviously I'm not trying to extrapolate to all members of this cult, because there are bad eggs everywhere, and the woman herself made some very poor decisions and is quite selfish in her own actions. But I do think they are dangerous.

ChocolateSauce

Thanks for the replies everyone!

And Dades, I put this in here because by "across the board" I meant mainly atheist views from a range of stances on religion. Besides, we'd just get the same people in the Christianity forum

Hmm....it makes me more worried than I already was. My atheist friend who defends them as being better than most was raised under the tyrannical dominion of a semi-psychotic parent who thinks she's one of the 144,000. It's kind of scary, because in all other walks of life my friend is an 8.5 on the rational scale.

Goduznt Xzst

DublinWriter wrote: »

I'll put it another way - they believe the earth is 12,000 years old and God put fossils in place to test our faith. Draw your own conclusions.

No they don't. If you try and argue with them with faulty information you are just setting yourself up for a fall. They believe the earth and the universe is as old as science says it is. However their explanations for the dinosaurs are rather hazy. They DO NOT think that God simply placed the fossils in the ground. Their understanding is actually more obscure in my opinion, my uncle tried to explain it to me before. He said that the dinosaurs where created as part of Gods preparation of the planet for humans, in that the earth was rather "rough" after God had made it so the dinosaurs where needed to graze on it and flatten the land. When asked why God didn't just create the Earth flat in the first place, he gave me a blank expression.

I'm sure AtomicHorrors and Galvaseans heads would implode if they ever tried to talk evolution and paleontology with a JW

Malari wrote: »

In my experience they thrive on the needs of vulnerable people, like most cults. They lure you in in order to trap you and insidiously separate you from your income, independence and belongings.

They do thrive on the needs of vulnerable people, but then what Christian sect doesn't? Religious belief tends to always have a high saturation in areas where people have very little left to have hope in.

They also don't separate you from your income or belongings. This is another common misconception. Donations are purely voluntary. Although, my cousin did say that his mother was explicitly told by one of his Churchs ministers to throw out all her LP's of the Beatles as a teenager because it was felt that they where a bad influence and supporters of premarital sex and drug use.

ChocolateSauce wrote: »

My atheist friend who defends them as being better than most was raised under the tyrannical dominion of a semi-psychotic parent who thinks she's one of the 144,000. It's kind of scary, because in all other walks of life my friend is an 8.5 on the rational scale.

What I've found is that JW's are the biggest hypocrites of all. They hold each other to this extremely high standard while breaking a lot of the religions beliefs behind closed doors. My cousin said that he judges his JW friends by those he can trust to not tell the priests (they call them elders) the movies he watches and the music he listens to.

If you ever get one of them on the door, ask them what TV shows they watch and what movies they've seen recently. Almost eveything in the media is supposed to be avoided by them. Clothes and Property shows? Materialism. Animal documentaries? Evolution. Sitcoms and dramas? Immorality.... etc

Malari

Goduznt Xzst wrote: »

They do thrive on the needs of vulnerable people, but then what Christian sect doesn't? Religious belief tends to always have a high saturation in areas where people have very little left to have hope in.

Well yes, but this thread is specifically asking about JWs...

Goduznt Xzst wrote: »

They also don't separate you from your income or belongings. This is another common misconception. Donations are purely voluntary. Although, my cousin did say that his mother was explicitly told by one of his Churchs ministers to throw out all her LP's of the Beatles as a teenager because it was felt that they where a bad influence and supporters of premarital sex and drug use.

It's not a misconception. I said it was insidious. They look after you when you are low, but they expect payback. Of course it's voluntary, but it's done in such a manipulative way that you can't refuse. For the good of the church.

Mr. Incognito

Grew up with a family of them a few doors away. Nuts.

God is all powerful yet needs 144,000 religious crazies to give him a hand with everything. Sure :rolleyes:

One of the kids tried to leavie the religion and he said himself that they were mad. The thing that always struck me was the lack of material things they had. One pane windows, no toys for the kids, giving money to the church. Dangerous cult.

Anyone that takes the bible seriously, like, word for word is a moron in my opinion. Some arabs write a book and these muppets take it seriously.

ChocolateSauce

Goduznt Xzst wrote: »

Although, my cousin did say that his mother was explicitly told by one of his Churchs ministers to throw out all her LP's of the Beatles as a teenager because it was felt that they where a bad influence and supporters of premarital sex and drug use.

I've always held the belief that it isn't premarital sex if you don't intend to marry.

Otherwise, thanks, you've been most illuminating.

PDN

While I disagree with JW's beliefs - I admire their courage. They got hammered by Hitler in the Holocaust & also by Stalin etc in the Soviet Union - but they stuck to their guns (metaphorically speaking, of course, since they are conscientious objectors).

Dades

PDN wrote: »

They got hammered by Hitler in the Holocaust & also by Stalin etc in the Soviet Union...

gpjordanf1

ChocolateSauce wrote: »

Hey everyone, I was hoping to gather some perspectives from all across the board on The Jehovah's Witnesses sect of Christianity.

What is your opinion or perception of them?

I ask because I have conflicting views from two of my most trusted sources (both atheists), one who says they're one of the better denominations and one who says they're grade A crazy fundies. I thought I'd ask real people rather than go to various websites with their own agendas.

I worked with one for 12 years, he was an elder / minister, the big cheese I suppose. But in those 12 years he was never genuine! Seriously I never felt like I knew the guy!

He has banished his one and only son a few years back.

He escorts his daughters everywhere, they are in their 20's.

He has tried to marry off his daughters abroad, South Africa & Australia, so he can have cheap holidays, I kid you not. But had to cancel because the boys were " bad boys"

He's so tight ya wouldn't believe it, if ya went to the shop, he'd try and short change ya everyday for 12 years.

They dont believe in xmas or much else, but every year he'd be there with the hand out accepting xmas gifts left into the office. So two faced.

Always talks down to ya and telling us we were going to burn! He didn't have much to say when I asked him when the space ship was coming to save the chosen few, said I was incorrect, but they changed their story a few years back.

Also when I asked him about blood transfusions they dont allow it, but years back they did. He said that wasn't correct. But it is, google it.

They prey on the weak and vunerable in society, they are a cult and should be outlawed worldwide!

I have no doubt this guy would have hung me and anyone else out to dry if the situation arose for his own benefit!

PDN

gpjordanf1 wrote: »

Always talks down to ya and telling us we were going to burn!

Jehovah's Witnesses don't believe in hell.

pH

I wonder is there any topic in A&A for which PDN can't contrive a Stalin post?

ChocolateSauce

gpjordanf1 wrote: »

They prey on the weak and vunerable in society, they are a cult and should be outlawed worldwide!

Outlawing goes against my humanist values, and would just drive them underground. Better to keep it out in the open. Also, they're not a cult, even if they have cult-like properties. Primarily, cults usually have a human leader and rules which are made by that leader. The JW is a religion because it comes from the bible, has a supernatural deity and has no "The Leader" type person.

PDN

ChocolateSauce wrote: »

Outlawing goes against my humanist values, and would just drive them underground. Better to keep it out in the open. Also, they're not a cult, even if they have cult-like properties. Primarily, cults usually have a human leader and rules which are made by that leader. The JW is a religion because it comes from the bible, has a supernatural deity and has no "The Leader" type person.

The founder of the JW's, Charles Russell, and his successor Judge Rutherford certainly were cult leaders. The rulebook is Russell's Studies in the Scriptures and that, rather than the Bible, is the source of their eligious system. Indeed, it is common claim among JWs that it is impossible to understand the Bible except in the light of Russell's writings.

ChocolateSauce

PDN wrote: »

The founder of the JW's, Charles Russell, and his successor Judge Rutherford certainly were cult leaders. The rulebook is Russell's Studies in the Scriptures and that, rather than the Bible, is the source of their eligious system. Indeed, it is common claim among JWs that it is impossible to understand the Bible except in the light of Russell's writings.

Hmm....well, like I said, cult like.

I love the irony of PDN telling me I was hasty in defending a religion!

achtungbarry

ChocolateSauce wrote: »

Hmm....well, like I said, cult like.

I love the irony of PDN telling me I was hasty in defending a religion!

Does anyone know who said that...

" A cult is just a religion without political influence"

In fairness, the JWs hold beliefs that are not much more nutty than their theist brethren who follow the "mainstream" religions.

They are probably a couple of points higher on the nutty belief scale (patent pending) but that's it.

Goduznt Xzst

PDN wrote: »

The rulebook is Russell's Studies in the Scriptures and that, rather than the Bible, is the source of their eligious system. Indeed, it is common claim among JWs that it is impossible to understand the Bible except in the light of Russell's writings.

Eh... can you provide evidence of this? I've done a fair bit of research into this sect, and the majority of them know very little about their founders. In fact they will usually insist that the founders where wrong in a lot of areas (the founders allowed the celebrations of Christmas as well as smoking amongst other beliefs that modern day JW's do not adhere to) It is one of the commonly held opinions that before debating the beliefs of a JW with them that you first need to teach them what they actually believe. Most of their opinions are just ones they've learnt off by rote.

They do have a leader group though called the "governing body" or "the faithful and discreet slave" which resides in their HQ's in brooklyn. This group is fairly nameless but is supposedly in direct communique with God and inspired by the "holy spirit". If you ask your average JW about this group they will know it only by name. It is commonly associated amongst them with being the spiritual inspiration behind all their literature.

The Mad Hatter

achtungbarry wrote: »

Does anyone know who said that...

" A cult is just a religion without political influence"

What about scientology?

ChocolateSauce

The Mad Hatter wrote: »

What about scientology?

What about them?

http://viewmorepics.myspace.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=viewImage&friendID=326522172&albumID=789920&imageID=3942745

Darned cultists...

Hellm0

Only knew one closely, was a decent if strange guy. That said I'm not one for generalizations, I do not know every Jehovah's Witness but the religion itself makes no sense. Even the name is based around a faulty translation!

The Mad Hatter

ChocolateSauce wrote: »

What about them?

http://viewmorepics.myspace.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=viewImage&friendID=326522172&albumID=789920&imageID=3942745

Darned cultists...

Er...they have political influence?

Also, what a shame that nearly everyone who wore one of those masks was inspired by that awful film and not the comic on which it was based.

Quint

JWs is a strange one. They have a (monthly i think) publication called The Watchtower which basically changes the rules. Supposidly they believe the bible, but the translation or meaning of any of it can change at any time through The Watchtower magazine. For instance the blood issue. Before any blood was forbidden, so were organ transplants. Now watchtower changed it's stance and fractionated blood products can be used (100% of the blood components) and organs can be used. Before anyone that used fractionated blood products were shunned, but now it's ok, because the Watchtower says so!
The watchtower also predicted armeggedon on numerous occasions. The JW organisation even bought houses in San Diego for people like Moses and St. Peter for their return to earth!

Anyway, while reading further up this thread about dinosaurs, I googled the bible dinosaurs and the first result was this: http://www.answersingenesis.org/articles/1999/11/05/dinosaurs-and-the-bible
A great read, after a few sentances you just can't get angry and just have to laugh!

Jehovah's witnesses came to my parents house while I was painting it about 15 years ago.

The watchtower was as useful as anything else for cleaning paint brushes and they came to me - I didn't even have to go looking for something to use as a rag.

If I believed in god I would have said the timing was divinely inspired cos they came just as I was finishing too.

ChocolateSauce

The Mad Hatter wrote: »

Er...they have political influence?

Also, what a shame that nearly everyone who wore one of those masks was inspired by that awful film and not the comic on which it was based.

:eek:

I loved the film. It was well timed and OTT in all the right places. I thought the novel was very good also, but a little too anarchist for my taste.

The Mad Hatter

ChocolateSauce wrote: »

:eek:

I loved the film. It was well timed and OTT in all the right places. I thought the novel was very good also, but a little too anarchist for my taste.

It had some good moments, but was generally far too unsubtle and far too simple-minded. I liked it until I read the book, and realised just how much potential the story actually had.

Húrin

I've had them in for tea when visiting my door and we have had amicable conversations about the Bible though they never seem to want to discuss the topics that divide them from other Christians like the divinity of Jesus.

Mr. Incognito wrote: »

The thing that always struck me was the lack of material things they had. One pane windows, no toys for the kids, giving money to the church. Dangerous cult.

What's wrong with people being happy with less stuff? The world would be in a much better condition if most people didn't just obey the advertisements telling them to buy more.

PDN wrote: »

The founder of the JW's, Charles Russell, and his successor Judge Rutherford certainly were cult leaders. The rulebook is Russell's Studies in the Scriptures and that, rather than the Bible, is the source of their religious system. Indeed, it is common claim among JWs that it is impossible to understand the Bible except in the light of Russell's writings.

I've had several visits from JWs to my door and have read most of the literature they're dropped in (copies of the Watchtower mostly) and have never heard of this rulebook. Their faith seems quite Bible based.

Matt3

I've encounter JW's now and again over the past few months in the area i'm living in, in Dublin.

I've had a chat to some of my neighbours, and the latest craze is that they try to get you into a conversation, while stopping you on the footpath near your home....there's usually two of them, both deliberately blocking your way.

I find this both annoying and somewhat creepy.

Galvasean

Some religious folk (not sure if they were JW's, but they did wear shirt n' tie) did that to me and a couple of mates back when I lived in Dundalk. Bad idea in a student housing estate.