Putting Lesson Specialist?

ShriekingSheet

Looking for some advice on improving putting...

I've never been that bad a putter and would regularly play a couple of rounds without a three-putt, but what I rarely get is a day where I hole a number of putts from 8-15 feet. Holing out from 3-5 feet is one of my strongest points, but just find it really strange at the lack of "good putts" from 10 or 12 feet.

I guess my frustration is that there doesn't seem to be any obvious explanation. I'm totally happy with my short/tricky range putts and two-putting from long range is no problem. If it were a technical problem surely it would be accross the board?

I've had a lesson or two with Brendan McDaid on it a few years ago, read the Rotella putting book and put a good few points of it into practice. I picked up the Pelz book and more or less immediately put it down - far, far, far too technical IMO. I also have a few good drills I do so it's not for the want of thought or effort. I just find it a hard thing to improve on.

Are there any pros that might specialise in putting? Anybody been to the Pelz school or having any similar experience/advice?

Mister Sifter

I'd also be interested in the replies to this one. That's the range i tend to struggle with as well. I've thought of going down the lessons route, but i figure that not just any old pro is going to be able to help me. I think it would need more of a specialist.

Be interested to hear if anyone has any suggestions.

Patrick_K

Hi Sheet,

I've heard Neil Manchip in Carton is excellent for short game / putting stuff.
I've had a lesson from him on iron play and wanted to go back for putting/short game lessons but I just couldn't justify the price - in the lesson I had with him I found him to be really good at simplifying things and breaking down the game very well.
I had a fear that as he normally dealt with the top amateurs I'd be out of my depth with him but not in the slightest.

As I couldnt justify the price of more lessons with him I decided to go to one of the guys who he coaches in Carton (Bernard Quigley) for a putting lesson as I just wanted to work on setup and putting mechanics which I figured is easier to teach and even though I wasnt getting it from the horses mouth I was hoping to get the same info. I found this be very good too.

As a matter of interest how many putts from 10-12 feet would you imagine you do make ? I can't remember whether it was in Rotellas or Pelz book where they broke down the ratio of putts pros make from that range, it was interesting reading. Think they make approx 50% of putts from 8 feet in but this drop off very dramatically after that. I'm not sure of the exact figures but I'd guess they're only making 20% or so from 12 feet - might be worth finding the figures just in case you're expectations are too high and just causing frustration ......

PK

slumped

Neil Manchip is supposed to be brilliant on the greens. Read something about him helping Rory McIlroy at one stage with his putting.

He's the national coach so must be doing something right when you look at the success he's having!

Patrick_K

Hi Graeme,

Think we hit reply at the same time there ....

Some info is coming back to me here - I think it is from one of Pelz books actually but he talks about the 'Golden 8' or some other marketing guff.

Basically what he refers to here is the importance of getting your approach shots within 8 feet of the hole as this is the range where they make 50% of putts from.

I would bet that if you are making 25% of your putts of 10-15 feet you are putting well within an acceptable range

Remember that his data is based on pros too not mere mortals (not that either of you are that ;-) )

stockdam

Patrick_K wrote: »

Basically what he refers to here is the importance of getting your approach shots within 8 feet of the hole as this is the range where they make 50% of putts from.

I would bet that if you are making 25% of your putts of 10-15 feet you are putting well within an acceptable range

Yes I'd agree with that or would even suggest that a 50% success rate at 6 feet is more likely at an amateur level....remember pros have more ability than us and can also dedicate all their waking hours to practice.

If you want to be a better putter than I'd suggest that you practice for an hour several times per week on a carpet at home until you can "hole" close to 100% of straight 10 foot putts. That should produce a repetitive swing - all you need to do next is to be able to read greens and to control your fears.....easy????

slumped

slumped wrote: »

Neil Manchip is supposed to be brilliant on the greens. Read something about him helping Rory McIlroy at one stage with his putting.

He's the national coach so must be doing something right when you look at the success he's having!

http://www.irishgolfdesk.com/news_files/McIlroy-last-16-Rosses-Point.php

Here it is:

"McIlroy’s only bogey came at the 16th, where he fluffed a cut up wedge after missing the green and while he cruised to a 3 and 2 win over Galway’s Eddie McCormack in the second round (a repeat of the 2005 Irish Close final) he headed straight for the putting green afterwards for a lesson from National Coach Neil Manchip.

“This morning was a bit more like it,” said McIlroy. “I knew David was a pretty good player and would be sticky enough and I played pretty well, but not this afternoon. I didn’t commit to my putts on the greens so I just asked Neil for a quick lesson.

“It is more about attitude than mechanics and I was trying to guide the ball to the hole rather than letting the putter come through naturally.”

Mister Sifter

slumped wrote: »

http://www.irishgolfdesk.com/news_files/McIlroy-last-16-Rosses-Point.php

Here it is:

"McIlroy’s only bogey came at the 16th, where he fluffed a cut up wedge after missing the green and while he cruised to a 3 and 2 win over Galway’s Eddie McCormack in the second round (a repeat of the 2005 Irish Close final) he headed straight for the putting green afterwards for a lesson from National Coach Neil Manchip.

“This morning was a bit more like it,” said McIlroy. “I knew David was a pretty good player and would be sticky enough and I played pretty well, but not this afternoon. I didn’t commit to my putts on the greens so I just asked Neil for a quick lesson.

“It is more about attitude than mechanics and I was trying to guide the ball to the hole rather than letting the putter come through naturally.”

McIlroy has used him a fair bit over the years, also for his chipping. Google throws up a few mentions.

Patrick_K

Found those figures here - http://www.golf.com/golf/instruction/article/0,28136,1642459-0,00.html

He says that in the range 10-15 feet a PGA pro makes 30% of these, a scratch golfer makes 22%, 10 handicapper makes 19% and 20 handicapper makes 14%.

mag

how much is a short game lesson from manchip?

madds

mag wrote: »

how much is a short game lesson from manchip?

€110 an hour. Breakdown of prices here:

GUI Academy Lessons - Prices

Myksyk

Funny this thread should be here now. I've just set up my putting practice area at home. The local golf superstore had got that really expensive putting surface for their putting area in the shop and had a 9x6 piece left which I got for a steal. I've cut it down the middle and now have an 18ft length allowing up to 16ft putts when you take your stance area into account. I've marked it off at 2ft points so I can start to really grind in my swing lengths for each putt - I'm of the David Pelz school and have a dead-hands pendulum stroke which means that the only thing that determines distance is length of backstroke - this takes the 'hit' out of the putt and means you can really judge specific lenghts very well with a little practice just by knowing the feel of different length backstroke. Anyway, dead chuffed with the set up (even if my wife is not really talking to me just now!!!). Off to do another half hour!

stockdam

Patrick_K wrote: »

Found those figures here - http://www.golf.com/golf/instruction/article/0,28136,1642459-0,00.html

He says that in the range 10-15 feet a PGA pro makes 30% of these, a scratch golfer makes 22%, 10 handicapper makes 19% and 20 handicapper makes 14%.

Interesting site - however there are too many errors in it.

A 30 handicapper holes more putts from 10-15 feet than a scratch golfer?


And a 10 handicapper is more accurate with his/her irons than a scratch player???

Mat the trasher

stockdam wrote: »

Interesting site - however there are too many errors in it.

A 30 handicapper holes more putts from 10-15 feet than a scratch golfer?


And a 10 handicapper is more accurate with his/her irons than a scratch player???

In fairness, the observations made on the site aren't basied on a gut feeling or opinion but results of a sample playing the shots. Sometimes this exercise can show some unexpected results as you've highlighted. I have to say I am very suprised at the putting stat. I don't see where you see the iron stats?

stockdam

The iron accuracy "stats" are shown on the picture on the left - Par 3 tee shot patterns.

Yes you can get some surprising results if you don't take enough samples - but then I wouldn't publish them until the samples were sufficient to draw reliable conclusions.

Mat the trasher

The picture isn't fully labeled, as in there isn't a label saying that the 10hcp is on the image. That aside assuming the the third best area mapped is the yellow area extending over the right side over the bunkers and covering all of the green, is that of the 10hcp. The Scratch golfer is on marked as being an oval shape around the green. IMO the better preformance.

The sample size is listed as:
Number of golfers tested: 314
Number of swings measured: 7,278

Remembering that this information is free and aimed at helping the general amateur golfing population to examine ways to improve their scoring, I believe that the quantity of the sample is sufficent to draw reasonably reliable conclusions.

Patrick_K

I agree with you Stockdam, some of those figures looked odd to me too.
AFAIK his stats on the Pros are based on years of research and a lot more data that the non-pro data so those figures would be more reliable. Does give an idea of what to expect though nonetheless.

ShriekingSheet

Thanks for all the replies guys. Interesting to see such good feedback on Manchip. He's a savage player. Played behind him in a ProAm in Milltown a few years back and he shot 62! One green was on a temp so no course record unfortunately...

I'll run it by my own pro who gives me lessons.

Strange to see a lot of replies around the percentage of putts holed... It's pretty irrelevent if you ask me. To me, stats like that just seem to be a way of rating yourself against others. I'm just seeking to improve my putting. How my putting ranks in the grand scheme of golf is neither here nor there IMO.

ShriekingSheet

Myksyk wrote: »

Funny this thread should be here now. I've just set up my putting practice area at home. The local golf superstore had got that really expensive putting surface for their putting area in the shop and had a 9x6 piece left which I got for a steal. I've cut it down the middle and now have an 18ft length allowing up to 16ft putts when you take your stance area into account. I've marked it off at 2ft points so I can start to really grind in my swing lengths for each putt - I'm of the David Pelz school and have a dead-hands pendulum stroke which means that the only thing that determines distance is length of backstroke - this takes the 'hit' out of the putt and means you can really judge specific lenghts very well with a little practice just by knowing the feel of different length backstroke. Anyway, dead chuffed with the set up (even if my wife is not really talking to me just now!!!). Off to do another half hour!

Cheers Myk,

Was really interested in your post. Totally the opposite approach to my own, as regards being technical/scientific a-la Pelz, but that's why I find it interesting. I also know there's possibly a majority of top players that approach putting this way so I'm in no way putting it down.

I use what other top players use (eg: Woods) who would try to measure a putt's length and translate that into a certain stroke length. Instead, you look at the hole, get a picture of it, and hit the putt. "Put to the picture" is what Woods says. You can see how far away the whole is, and any slope involved. So based on what you see, you trust your mind to trigger the appropraite stroke. It's basically more feel-based.

Here's the man himself explaining http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=InVkZ1b5EUU

Anyway, interesting how two pretty much contradictory methods can be employed by the best players in the world and in my view, neither can be called right or wrong or better than the other.

Myksyk

Yes completely agree. I think regardless of mechanics there is (as Pelz says) a great deal of 'art' about putting including subjective assessment of slope, break, green-reading, etc. He certainly doesn't dismiss all of that and in fact highlights it. But yes, he certainly believes in minimizing the actual margins for error in the mechanics of the stroke itself. One of his contentions which I agree with is that feel putting may be more prone to being negatively affected in pressure situations. For example, when he analysed 'hit' strokes where the pace is delivered by the strength of the stroke rather than the length of the stroke, he found that there was only about an inch or less of a difference in the backswing for a 20 footer and a 30 footer - this is a small differential for players to be aware of and may become less easy to 'feel' these differences when the player is under pressure and the physiology of the player's muscles etc are affected by unavoidable rushes of adrenalin etc. Interesting stuff but at the end of the day it literally is "different strokes for different folks"!

Mister Sifter

Nevermind the specialists Shriek... just get on this...

http://www.matchpractice.com/game/

Myksyk

6 in a row ... after a thousand go's ... much like the real thing then!!!

Mister Sifter

Myksyk wrote: »

6 in a row ... after a thousand go's ... much like the real thing then!!!

My best is 5... was trying for bloody ages too!!

kagni

Have a look here -- http://www.puttingzone.com/

Go to the "How to putt" section.
The site has a bit of a confusing layout, but there is an unbelieveable amount of information here, to be honest it is a bit too much to take in, but you might find something to help you.