Reply from Minister Ahernes office

Frank the Manc

This is the response i received from the DOJ, when i send it i made no reference in the subject to guns ect. in the hope that it would actually be read, apparently this didnt work as they appear to have scanned through the first few lines & generated a standard reply.

Posted on the airsoft forum also as i had asked about airsoft in the letter, but received no response regarding any of my direct questions.



"Dear Mr. XXXXXX

I refer to your recent representations expressing your concern about the
recent announcement concerning handguns.

It is important to say, first of all, that the Minister’s proposals in
relation to handguns will not impinge directly on the activities of the
vast majority of licensed firearms holders. The Minister recognises that
those firearms holders pursue their legitimate interests in a law abiding
way and is anxious to have a well regulated sector in which those interests
can be successfully pursued, in cooperation with the relevant authorities.

As you may be aware, for over 30 years prior to 2004, all handguns were
banned in this jurisdiction. Following a series of judicial decisions that
is no longer the case and about 1,800 handguns have been licensed since
then. This was not the result of a considered or deliberate public policy
decision. While, thankfully, violence related to the troubles in the North
has largely been brought to an end we are now faced with a gun culture
operating in criminal gangs. It is a matter of great regret that the
activities of criminal gangs should impinge on the interests of law abiding
licensed firearms owners but the Minister cannot overlook the fact that the
overall level and kind of licensed firearms prevalent in the community is
relevant to the prevention of crime, in the same way the prohibition on
handguns was considered appropriate from the early seventies on.

The Minister has been conscious too of the remarks of Mr. Justice Charleton
in a recent judgement that a reasonable person is entitled to feel alarmed
at the proliferation of handguns. He is aware too of calls made by members
of the Oireachtas from a number of parties to address this situation.

The Minister is aware that some people have a strongly held view that once
they are of good character and make the necessary secure arrangements for
the storage of their firearms they should be free to have firearms of any
kind licensed to them. The Minister feels that that would represent an
unacceptable situation where our gun laws could mirror those of countries
such as the United States and that, if the present situation continued
unchecked, this would happen.

It was against this background that the Minister directed his Department
and An Garda Síochána to carry out an urgent and intensive review of the
firearms law. Proposals arising from that review will be reflected in a
Criminal Justice (Miscellaneous) Provisions Bill which will be published
shortly.

His proposals for reform in this area include a ban on issuing new licenses
for handguns, although there will be limited exceptions in relation to
Olympic sports. Those who have licenses already can, when they are due for
renewal, apply to have them renewed under a new licensing procedure where
the safety of the community will be paramount. Together with the Garda
Commissioner the Minister will keep under annual review the outcome of the
licensing procedure and, if the outcome leaves a situation which still
poses an unacceptable risk to the community, will use new powers to ban
particular types of firearm.

There have been suggestions in some quarters that this move arose, in some
way, as a response to recent gangland crime. It did not.

The Minister has been on record for many months saying he was looking at
this issue, especially in light of Judge Peter Charleton's remarks in July.
The Minister felt that it was incumbent on him and the Oireachtas to
respond to those views. Otherwise in the light of tragic incidents the
public would correctly ask the question: Why, when they were warned, did
the politicians not do something about it?

It is important to stress that these proposals will not impinge on the vast
majority of licensed firearms holders. While any inconvenience caused to
those who will be affected by the proposals is, of course, regretted the
Minister is satisfied that his proposals are essential in the public
interest.

Yours sincerely,



_________________
Private Secretary

December 2008"

Sparks

Frank the Manc wrote: »

This is the response i received from the DOJ, when i send it i made no reference in the subject to guns ect. in the hope that it would actually be read, apparently this didnt work as they appear to have scanned through the first few lines & generated a standard reply.

And it's an eyebrow-raising reply at that. Good man for writing in in the first place though.

the Minister’s proposals in
relation to handguns will not impinge directly on the activities of the
vast majority of licensed firearms holders. The Minister recognises that
those firearms holders pursue their legitimate interests in a law abiding
way

And the others don't? I think that's rather an unfortunate turn of phrase...

As you may be aware, for over 30 years prior to 2004, all handguns were banned in this jurisdiction.

Actually, they weren't - they were completely legal, but the Gardai refused to issue licences. That's not the same thing (though on the ground there's little difference, you'd expect the Minister to be more accurate...).

the Minister cannot overlook the fact that the overall level and kind of licensed firearms prevalent in the community is relevant to the prevention of crime

They are? Dammit, who gave Batman a handgun licence? Come on, 'fess up...

He is aware too of calls made by members of the Oireachtas from a number of parties to address this situation.

Really? Is IANSA now lobbying against handgun licences in Ireland with their entire membership of one? Or are all those calls being made against the proposed ban, you'd wonder....

The Minister feels that that would represent an
unacceptable situation where our gun laws could mirror those of countries
such as the United States

Good grief. Have they actually read the laws from the US?

Those who have licenses already can, when they are due for renewal, apply to have them renewed under a new licensing procedure where the safety of the community will be paramount.

So what's paramount in the current procedure, if not public safety?

There have been suggestions in some quarters that this move arose, in some way, as a response to recent gangland crime. It did not.

And I'm a penguin.

Why, when they were warned, did the politicians not do something about it?

I wonder if he knows what he'll be asked when the first handgun murder is carried out after the ban? Or if he knows he's just contradicted his statement that this isn't about gangland crime, within a sentence of stating it?

Sheesh....

Grizzly 45

This is the std press release that is doing the rounds.I go one as well.It wouldnt fool anyone anymore. New bit is about the Minister saying it has nothing to do with crime[2nd last paragraph].
So he is admitting that this was now a pre planned and motivated move????
Actually he is being very disengenious claiming it was the Charlton decision...It goes back to May of this year when the Garda ASGI expressed concerns about the handgun liscense increases. Let's take the cue from there:(

PJ Hunter

Grizzly 45 wrote: »

This is the std press release that is doing the rounds.I go one as well.It wouldnt fool anyone anymore. New bit is about the Minister saying it has nothing to do with crime[2nd last paragraph].
So he is admitting that this was now a pre planned and motivated move????
Actually he is being very disengenious claiming it was the Charlton decision...It goes back to May of this year when the Garda ASGI expressed concerns about the handgun liscense increases. Let's take the cue from there:(

So he is admitting that this was now a pre planned and motivated move???


Two man show??

Trojan911

wrote:

While, thankfully, violence related to the troubles in the North has largely been brought to an end

Has it?

wrote:

we are now faced with a gun culture operating in criminal gangs. It is a matter of great regret that the activities of criminal gangs should impinge on the interests of law abiding licensed firearms owners but the Minister cannot overlook the fact that the overall level and kind of licensed firearms prevalent in the community is relevant to the prevention of crime, in the same way the prohibition on
handguns was considered appropriate from the early seventies on.

It is also a matter of great regret that the Government appear to have lost its grip on the situation. What I can gather from the above is, the Government can't control a handful of thugs, so the law abiding public suffer. In my book that is called a "Cop Out".

PS, Well done Frank for sending the letter.

G17

Grizzly 45 wrote: »

This is the std press release that is doing the rounds.I got one as well. New bit is about the Minister saying it has nothing to do with crime[2nd last paragraph](

+1

hk

"The Minister is aware that some people have a strongly held view that once they are of good character and make the necessary secure arrangements for the storage of their firearms they should be free to have firearms of any kind licensed to them."

I received the same reply a few weeks ago, its the sentence above that really pisses me off, I dont think that that is the attitude of the shooting community, ie i dont want a sub machine gun, .5 sniper rifle etc

PJ Hunter

The Minister has been conscious too of the remarks of Mr. Justice Charleton
in a recent judgement that a reasonable person is entitled to feel alarmed
at the proliferation of handguns.

In the light of recent killings are Judges going to inpose a ban on the early
release & bail for all firearm / knife offenders! Should ordinary law abiding citizens be able to travel around this country without fear of the criminal being able to access the poliferation of illegal weapons imported by drug
barons. Is it not reasonable to be very alarmed by the revolving door of
the Irish legal system that allows firearm offenders back on the streets
early.

PJ Hunter

Have any of the crime / security journalists any estimates as to the number and type of illegal firearms and explosive devices available for illegal use. Estimates for para -military ordnance was available to the media for over 30 years lasting the duration of the troubles. Gangland arsenals have at there disposal, the use of a large quantity of illegal pistols, machine pistols, AK47's, RPG rocket launchers, grenades, improvised explosive devices. It would be interesting to compare like
would like as to the proliferation of what we are all talking about.

Sparks

Those are up in Parlimentary Questions today PJ...

Sikamick

PJ Hunter wrote: »

The Minister has been conscious too of the remarks of Mr. Justice Charleton
in a recent judgement that a reasonable person is entitled to feel alarmed
at the proliferation of handguns.

In the light of recent killings are Judges going to impose a ban on the early
release & bail for all firearm / knife offenders! Should ordinary law abiding citizens be able to travel around this country without fear of the criminal being able to access the proliferation of illegal weapons imported by drug
barons. Is it not reasonable to be very alarmed by the revolving door of
the Irish legal system that allows firearm offenders back on the streets
early.

______________________________________________________________


I would think that Justice Charleton was correct in relation to the tightening up of the Firearms act, but I think it should have been on the basis of the proliferation of illegal firearms used by criminals.

We have a situation that a sixteen year old has easy access to to a high powered pistol, kills someone and the judicial systems is willing to grant bail of 2000 euro and put him back on the street.

Surly this is a prime example of the revolving door and the failure of the system. They, the powers that be would much prefer to penalise law abiding firearms holders.

Sikamick

________________________________________________________________
Irish Times.

Sister to stand bail for O'Kane murder accused
The teenage sister of a 16-year-old boy charged with the murder of Aidan O’Kane month is to stand bail for him, the Children’s Court heard today.

Mr O’Kane (50) died in hospital on December 7th following a row with teenagers near his home at Shelmalier Road, in East Wall, Dublin 3. He was shot in the stomach in a laneway between Shelmalier Road and Bargy Road, not far from his house.

The boy, who cannot be identified because he is a juvenile, was charged at the Children’s Court in Smithfield last week and remanded in custody.

Judge Bryan Smyth noted today that conditional High Court bail, set earlier this week, had stipulated “the surety in the amount of €2,000 of which the full amount is to be lodged in cash.”

The boy’s sister, who is in her late teens, confirmed that she was in full-time employment and had brought a bank statement to court showing that she had about €4,000 in her account.

Older bank statements were also provided indicating that she was in receipt of a regular income.
.
Judge Smyth then approved her to act as the independent surety.

Judge Smyth remanded the boy for four weeks to St Patrick’s Institution with consent to bail, which can be taken up when the cash surety has been lodged.

© 2008 irishtimes.com
ADVERTISEMENT

Sparks

€2,000 bail. For ****s sake.

Red Renard

The unacceptable future risk is the revolving door! A left wing pinkos charter that places rehabilitation of the offender above that of the silenced victim or there bereaved family.

Grizzly 45

Sparks wrote: »

€2,000 bail. For ****s sake.

Seeing that our govt like comparing our gun laws to the USA...Why not our bail laws as well??
In the US that would be appx a 500,000 plus USD bail bond,or incaeration untill trial in the local county jail!
Now THAT would be serious cash in anyones books,and a miserable time for anyone as well.County jails are the pits! High time our bail laws are brought up to somthing serious FFS the price of a decent 50in plasma telly,is equivlent to a human life here???:rolleyes::mad:

cavan shooter

I spent enough time in courts to open my eyes to how messed up, and how hog tied the system is. Wait till you hear the next lot of sob sob stories, broken home etc.

And the state will pay for his defence, And remember, his previous cannot be taken into account during the trial, nice suit look sorry, Watch what happens??

newby.204

I thought this belonged here, i voiced my concerns to Mr Daragh O'Brien TD on the new firearms legislation, he never got back to me. I then sent a follow up email, and he replied, i have posted it below, i think its a fairly positive email.

Dear xxxxx,

Firstly apologies for the delay in replying to you. I am vice-chair of the Public Accounts Committee, which have been involved in the FAS investigation for the past 8 weeks. It has taken up a massive amount of my time and I am slightly behind on my e-mail.

Only this Tuesday I spoke with the Minister on this matter. I also had a meeting on Wednesday with a number of people who are licensed handgun owners. For your information I am a member of Courtlough Gun Club and shoot regularly, although not handguns.

I am working on this matter and am ensuring that the Minister is aware of the views of people who have been in contact with me. It is important to note that the heads of any proposed Bill have not yet been published. Any proposal to ban or further restrict the ownership of handguns will become clearer in January. I am available to meet you to discuss this matter further. If you would like to contact my office at the numbers below to arrange to meet.

Kind Regards,

Darragh

Office: Darragh O'Brien T.D

Red Renard

newby.204 wrote: »

I thought this belonged here, i voiced my concerns to Mr Daragh O'Brien TD on the new firearms legislation, he never got back to me. I then sent a follow up email, and he replied, i have posted it below, i think its a fairly positive email.

Dear xxxxx,

Firstly apologies for the delay in replying to you. I am vice-chair of the Public Accounts Committee, which have been involved in the FAS investigation for the past 8 weeks. It has taken up a massive amount of my time and I am slightly behind on my e-mail.

Only this Tuesday I spoke with the Minister on this matter. I also had a meeting on Wednesday with a number of people who are licensed handgun owners. For your information I am a member of Courtlough Gun Club and shoot regularly, although not handguns.

I am working on this matter and am ensuring that the Minister is aware of the views of people who have been in contact with me. It is important to note that the heads of any proposed Bill have not yet been published. Any proposal to ban or further restrict the ownership of handguns will become clearer in January. I am available to meet you to discuss this matter further. If you would like to contact my office at the numbers below to arrange to meet.

Kind Regards,

Darragh

Office: Darragh O'Brien T.D

Apparently Darragh, Ideas and solutions are available to the minister from the shooting community. I don't know what they are but it would be reasonable to assume and expect that if the FCP was called into full session soon before the bill gets published these can be discussed to see if any of them work?

newby.204

Red Renard wrote: »

Apparently Darragh, Ideas and solutions are available to the minister from the shooting community. I don't know what they are but it would be reasonable to assume and expect that if the FCP was called into full session soon before the bill gets published these can be discussed to see if any of them work?

Im not sure whether thats sarcasm or not but it seems like a very genuine reply from the man.

Red Renard

newby.204 wrote: »

Im not sure whether thats sarcasm or not but it seems like a very genuine reply from the man.

It's not! I can only tell you newby what I understood to be a genuine reply to a question. I hope there really is a way to resolve matters.

newby.204

now i have you, sorry about that

BornToKill

Frank the Manc wrote: »

This is the response i received from the DOJ, when i send it i made no reference in the subject to guns

It's hardly the case that the letter makes no reference to guns.

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2055441900&page=3

Sparks

If it was an email though, the subject would be different to the letter body.

Sikamick

Red Renard wrote: »

Apparently Darragh, Ideas and solutions are available to the minister from the shooting community. I don't know what they are but it would be reasonable to assume and expect that if the FCP was called into full session soon before the bill gets published these can be discussed to see if any of them work?

________________________________________________________________

I can tell you Red Renard that the solution is with the Minister, it leaves the Licensed Pistols in place and it takes the public treat away whether he acts on it is another thing.

Re the FCP it is an insult to the shooting community that the Minister has not made sure that his reps and the Garda are meeting regularly with the NGBS reps and the other people that sit on the FCP.

Sikamick