Cruising speed versus race speed

--amadeus--

I'm not sure how to phrase this...

In the run up to the DCM I was running ordinary, everyday runs at between 7:30 and 7:45 min/miles and I then ran the race at an average of 7:19 m/m, so 10 - 25 secs per mile faster than my "normal" speed. I'm starting my next program this week and I want to raise the intensity a little and I am curious about the difference between other people's race pace and training paces.

So what sort of speed do you think a sub 3 runner would / should be running on their regular runs? And what about everyone else - what's the difference between your race and training pace?

MCOS

Hey --amadeus--

I've wondered a bit about this myself. I did all of my LSRs at RP, even the 23 mile at the start of October. My marathon pace was 7'55" which I generally consider as my cruising pace for the last year or so. Maybe this then meant I cruised my marathon? Cruised to a pb?! It didn't feel like that on the day however as I emptied the tank over the line. Perhaps its because I have never 'raced' running events such as 5k, 10k, 10 mile etc.. My only experience of 'racing' was over 100m as a teenager. I never even contemplated 'racing' a marathon! I'd be interested to know what my 'race' pace should be though?

Rusty Cogs 08

Pfitzinger & Douglas go into this in 'Advanced Marathoning'. They talk about your long runs being 20% to 10% slower than your goal pace. So if you were going for a 2'59'59'' and you were say 16 weeks out (from Rotterdam like myself) your long runs would be somewhere like 8'12''pm, (6'50'' + 20%), as you get closer to the marathon those long runs would come in to 7'31'' (6'50 + 10%). These of course are your long runs. Your (mid week) tempo or lactic thresehold runs would be a bit quicker. The look at % of Max HR / reserve HR here.

Woddle

Hi Amadeus you probably know more than I do but instead of jumping into sub 3 hour training and using sub 3 hour as your benchmark for training would you not consider starting your training based on your finishing time for DM or use the heart rate zones that are suggested in advanced marathoning eg lactate threshold 80% to 90%, Vo2 max 94% to 98% and when they call for a session at predicted marathon pace do these at sub 3 hour pace and hopefully through training your body would have made enough adaptations to see you finish in 2:59 and not get to bogged down on how quickly or not your running your long run or any other session especially in the base phase. I myself am aware that I don't push myself hard enough in some training sessions and for this reason I am following my average HR per session very closely.

ss43

Does anyone here use a long hard run rather than just a long easy one? I'm not a marathoner but from what I can gather it's the long hard run that sets marathon training apart from shorter distances. I'm under the impression that marathon runners should use long easy runs and long hard runs (with different paces). The hard one could be 5 steady 5 at goal Marathon pace alternating for 20 miles for example with the progression on the session being to increase the pace of the steady section, bringing it closer to race pace.

Also when doing sessions, do you aim to progress by reducing the times of your reps or recovery? Again, this isn't from experience as it's not my event but to me the most effective sessions would seem to be progressed by increasing the pace of the recovery run between reps so 10 x 1k @ 3:20 with 1k at 4:30 as recovery would be progressed to become 10 x 1k @ 3:20 with 1k at 4:00 as recovery (times may not have a realistic ratio there, just using them as examples). This is to increase the Aerobic Threshold pace (typically 2.0mmol lactate but subject to each individual) which once the Anerobic Threshold has been developed becomes the main factor in running a good marathon.

Back to the original topic - should you not have lots of different paces
eg, Mon - steady run 60 -90 mins, Tue: 'speed' session 8xK, Wed: recovery 50-80 mins,
Thurs: AnT or MP runs (alternate each week), Fri: rest, Sat: Long run (alternate each week: easy/hard) Sun: recovery run 40-60 mins

That's what I'd consider a typicalish week in a marathon programme and there's no real pace you coul isolate as everyday run pace. You'd have:
Recovery - as easy as necessary
Steady - slightly slower than goal race pace (Aerobic Threshold pace or greater I would think but don't have much experience of this pace as doesn't realte to my training really)
MP - goal race pace
AnT - Anaerobic threshold
Session - faster than AnT

Does that make sense or am I a bit off on some of it? If I am please let me know.

Running Bing

Granted a three hour marathon is nothing but a distant dream for me at the moment but I was under the impression that the body should dictate the pace for the most part rather than the mind.

What I mean is if your doing an easy run (or a recovery run) it should be just that easy...if that happens to be 7:20 or 7:30 then so be it. I dont think it would be very effective training if you just said "right Im going to run my easy runs at xx:xx pace" and went out killing yourself to achieve that.


If your doing a race pace run then naturally you go at target race pace.


I find the McMillan running calculator very useful for determining appropriate training paces. For a 2'59 marathon easy runs should be between 7:20-7:50 pace according to the calculator.

Racing Flat

Babybing wrote: »

What I mean is if your doing an easy run (or a recovery run) it should be just that easy...if that happens to be 7:20 or 7:30 then so be it. I dont think it would be very effective training if you just said "right Im going to run my easy runs at xx:xx pace" and went out killing yourself to achieve that.

QFT

TFBubendorfer

ss43 wrote: »

Does anyone here use a long hard run rather than just a long easy one? I'm not a marathoner but from what I can gather it's the long hard run that sets marathon training apart from shorter distances.

I like ending my long runs with a few faster miles. E.g. 15 miles at steady pace and the last 5 at marathon pace.

I usually do one run before each marathon with 10 miles at 90% of marathon pace and 10 miles at marathon pace. That's a tough workout but a good confidence booster. If I can't pull it off than it would also tell me that I'm not in the right shape, I suppose.

Woddle

Great to see you have joined us on boards, I have been reading your log for sometime now, your experience and expertise will be much appreciated, so welcome aboard

christeb

Woddle wrote: »

Great to see you have joined us on boards, I have been reading your log for sometime now, your experience and expertise will be much appreciated, so welcome aboard

+1!

The Advanced Marathoning book is winging it's way to me currently, so I look forward to getting into pacing in more detail.

Stupid_Private

Babybing wrote: »

What I mean is if your doing an easy run (or a recovery run) it should be just that easy...if that happens to be 7:20 or 7:30 then so be it. I dont think it would be very effective training if you just said "right Im going to run my easy runs at xx:xx pace" and went out killing yourself to achieve that.

Exactly. I don't wear a watch on easy days - actually I only ever wear a watch to time my recovery on days I do intervals. How long it takes to do an easy run does not matter. If it's the day after a hard session it'll naturally be slower than the day after an easy day. No way should you be forcing yourself to go any pace that you don't feel comfortable doing on an easy day.

ss43 wrote: »

Does anyone here use a long hard run rather than just a long easy one? I'm not a marathoner but from what I can gather it's the long hard run that sets marathon training apart from shorter distances. I'm under the impression that marathon runners should use long easy runs and long hard runs (with different paces).

Also a good point. The long runs are what it's all about. I never have to tell my coach how the easy 8 miles on Monday went - it's all about the Sunday long run.

I've been doing long steady runs (wouldn't call them long hard runs) since April. This is the first year they've been anything other than easy and I don't think everyone can just jump into them. By April I'd probably done at least 10 long runs and 4 or 5 races that year so I'd say I had a good base to work off. I don't think everyone who starts into a new marathon program could start banging out steady long runs without having a few months of slow long runs behind them.

tunney

Babybing wrote: »

What I mean is if your doing an easy run (or a recovery run) it should be just that easy...if that happens to be 7:20 or 7:30 then so be it. I dont think it would be very effective training if you just said "right Im going to run my easy runs at xx:xx pace" and went out killing yourself to achieve that.

Not quite. There is a whole school of thought that training should be performance rather than physiologcally based.

HR zones and PE is okay for certain sessions. But Pace zones are more appropriate, some would say.

See http://www.trainingpeaks.com/cuttingedge/pace.asp

--amadeus--

Thanks for teh answers

I must re-read P&D actually, it's a great book. To clarify my OP, which didn't really say what I wanted it to say...

I know easy runs should be easy and pace dictated by the body. However I also have been told that the main difference between a sub 3 training plan and a "regular" training plan is intensity. So I was trying to find out the intensity of the general, non-recovery runs - the "general aerobic" runs. I have a tendency to run very much in my comfort zone and I want to make sure that I am not just running at a level where the benefit is negligible. I was also curious as to the gap between the speed that people run at versus the speed they race at. Useful answers tho, thanks again!

Stupid_Private

Your best bet is to take whatever advice on board and go with what you feel comfortable doing. Convidence plays a big part in how you race at the end of it all.

No matter how much data I see I wouldn't change the way I train. It works for me and I'm happy with it. If I was a 2.20 runner I may pay more attention to the science aspect of running - tipping around at my pace I won't.

I've trained with a few lads know who have gone under 2.20 and you're right the intensity they train at is on a different level. Not the easy runs however, what I've noticed is they tip around on them... I was going around with one guy on an easy run at close to 8 minute pace and I was freaked that we were going too slow. He could run 10k in sub 30 minutes and it was me who thought we were training slow. The two main workouts a week and on the long run the top guys leave you for dead, but the rest of the time, from my experience, they tend to run like the rest of us... but slower!

And obviously this isn't all top athletes - there will definitely be examples of elites on different programs, running fast all the time, getting the same results. It really is all about what works for you.

tdlynch

Training serves two purposes: aids recovery from the last run and builds fitness for the next.

For LSRs, I think time on the road matters more than pace. My LSRs started about 90-60 secs slower than marathon pace initially, and came down to 45 secs slower in the last couple weeks. I did two 23 milers in 3:03 and 3:06, and then on the day did the marathon in 3:07.

You could look to maybe lift it to marathon pace in the last 5-6 miles, which I found a useful exercise in understanding what it feels like to be fatigued and running at race pace.

Like yourself amadeus, I'm looking to break that magical 3-hour barrier next time out. I'm currently working to get my 5k/10k/10mile paces down below marathon pace, so that when I'm running 6:45 it feels comfortable.

My main means of doing this is speedwork using intervals (once/twice a week), and then a hard 10mile run at 6:30 pace (once a week).

The rest of my runs (including LSRs) will be at a nice enjoyable pace, flushing out all that lactic acid, in prep for the next hard session.

Best of luck over the next couple weeks/months...

ss43

tunney wrote: »

Not quite. There is a whole school of thought that training should be performance rather than physiologcally based.

HR zones and PE is okay for certain sessions. But Pace zones are more appropriate, some would say.

See http://www.trainingpeaks.com/cuttingedge/pace.asp

It comes down to the function of the training. Specific training to improve your efficiency at race pace will most likely be best done at race pace. Recovery runs where the function is to quicken your recovery are best done based on how you feel.

Earlier in a season, the training should be nearly all based on feel but it should progress to more specific race pace work as the season moves on.

Regarding, the easy runs at a very slow pace. I think the important thing to consider is not that they ran really slow in training some days and were really good. The big thing to note is that they trained hard enough on the hard days that they needed to go really slow the next day. The easy run is a big part of your training but is only useful when the hard runs are hard.

tdlynch, you say your next long runs will be easy in preparation for the sessions. Would longish runs with significant segments at MP not be a more productive way of training thatn doing Ks or 400s or whatever at probably a significantly faster pace. The challenge, if I've interpreted it correctly, is to run hard when the body has run out of fuel. To do this you need to have the body's fuel supplies depleted in training before the trainingis finished. If someone does long slow runs, it prepares them to be able to keep running on low fuel supplies but if someone puts in lots of hard work in their long runs, they are teaching their body to run hard of limited supplies which is the main problem when racing a marathon.