bye bye GM?

itarumaa

Instead of having an endless discussions about fog lights or M50, howabout discussion about USA car manufacturers that are goind downhill really fast.

This decision means propably that at least GM and maybe Chrysler and Ford Usa will go bankruptcy really soon.

Last year GM alone had a net income about
-$38.7 Billion so basically GM is running out of money.

So what you think will happen to car manufacturers, only GM alone has brands: Buick, Cadillac, Chevrolet, GM Daewoo, GMC, Holden, Hummer, Opel, Pontiac, Saab, Saturn, Vauxhall, and Wuling

It is going to be interesting to see what happens,but so far it does not look too good to GM. Actually GM lost last year 4,5 million dollars per one hour.

Berty

Ummm the US government decided to bail out the US car industry only yesterday. No fears there really.

Mitch Connor

Berty wrote: »

Ummm the US government decided to bail out the US car industry only yesterday. No fears there really.

Read the linked article.

Senate rejected it cause the UAW wouldn't consider pay cuts til 2011, which was the show stopper for republicans, who didn't back the vote for the bill (along with some democrats) so it was rejected.

I wonder if McCain had won the election, would the republicans have rejected it.

minxie

http://news.sky.com/skynews/
looks like bad news for them now...

Notch000

Sky news reported GM motors are losing $52,000 per minute. At that rate no amount of money can save them. If the cars aint shifting there going down. Same as everyone else.

JayeL

As much as I think GM and Ford deserve to fall for their utter complacency to innovate in the massive North American market, they've shown a willingness to try harder just about anywhere else in the world i.e. where they have real competition.

Congress can go back to them and say "we'll give you the cash but you have start introducing fuel-efficient cars - immediately". Put pressure to start selling their European ranges in full in the USA. Right now, GM are turning Saturn into Opel USA and Ford are planning to sell the new Fiesta there but this needs to accelerate. This idea of reducing average gas mileage over the range is not the answer - they simply shouldn't be allowed to sell a vehicle that, for example, does less than 30mpg in the real world. It's perfectly possible to do so, there's just no incentive for it. Well that's one: design a gas guzzler and it won't leave the drawing board.

I have some sympathy for Chrysler - as awful as the Dodge Caliber is, it's an example of their outward-looking, unashamedly-American ethos and with a bit more work, they might just build something the world could be interested in.

bazz26

Given the amount of jobs that the American car industry has and the potential repocusions to the fragile American economy, the US Government will not allow these "big" three to go under. The bailout will eventually go through but with different terms & conditions plus they will convey a message to other institutions that the tax payer will not continue to pick up the tab for their failings. Expect a major overhall of the American car industry after this bail out.

It's a pitty our Government didn't do something like with the banks here.

towel401

Its good to see these muppets go down after the whole electric car thing a few years ago.

besides most of these brands don't make a single nice car. who would really be disappointed if buick or daewoo were no longer around?

Stephen

The UAW shot themselves in the foot again.

Rowley Birkin QC

towel401 wrote: »

besides most of these brands don't make a single nice car.

Vauxhall/Holden Monaro
Vauxhall VX220

That's about it really. The new Insignia is pretty nice too.

JayeL

towel401 wrote: »

who would really be disappointed if buick or daewoo were no longer around?

Chinese companies would be lining up to get their hands on Buick, it's GM's volume brand in China as it's got major brand recognition, much more than Chevy.

GM should hold on to Chevrolet and Saturn but chuck Saab, Cadillac and Hummer; prestige cars not needed in this climate. Turn Pontiac into the home of hot hatches and pocket pockets along with the odd sports car, a brand for the Fast & Furious brigade, students and under 35's generally. Chevy should be the anchor of the GM group, selling re-badged Daewoos and some Holdens (don't sell either brand, obv, they'll come in handy), all built in the USA and be very family-orientated, with two crossover vehicles unique to the brand. Saturn could sell Opels and niche microcars, targetted at young singles and families who want something a bit different, kinda like a GM answer to Toyota's Scion brand in the US.

Cookie_Monster

towel401 wrote: »

daewoo were no longer around?

Now now, the cars may not be great but the ships aren't half bad:D


As much as i would like to see them go for their uselessness and incompitance, there are simply to many businesses and jobs relying on them for the US economy to survive their demise. iirc thare are 6 million jobs linked directly or indirectly...

Just imagine what will happen to Detroit too if they collapsed, the city would simply fail as unemployment skyrocketed and tax revenues were cut massivly. It would end up like somewhere in Africa

Rowley Birkin QC

Isn't that what the great American dream of Capitalism is all about?

You sink or swim on your own merit.

towel401

Cookie_Monster wrote: »

Now now, the cars may not be great but the ships aren't half bad:D


As much as i would like to see them go for their uselessness and incompitance, there are simply to many businesses and jobs relying on them for the US economy to survive their demise. iirc thare are 6 million jobs linked directly or indirectly...

Just imagine what will happen to Detroit too if they collapsed, the city would simply fail as unemployment skyrocketed and tax revenues were cut massivly. It would end up like somewhere in Africa

yea apparently the daewoo ships are of much higher quality than the samsung ones but GM never bought the ship building part of daewoo did they?

Cookie_Monster

towel401 wrote: »

yea apparently the daewoo ships are of much higher quality than the samsung ones but GM never bought the ship building part of daewoo did they?

No, hence the smiley

E92

bigkev49 wrote: »

Vauxhall/Holden Monaro
Vauxhall VX220

That's about it really. The new Insignia is pretty nice too.

I wouldn't shed a tear about seeing most of the GM brands going.

I'd shed even less of a one when Chrysler go(which they will).

The trouble is if GM goes then there will be no more Saabs and no more Opels.

I'd hate to see Opel go now that they've started producing some really lovely cars in recent times. Just look at the Insignia.

I'd be sorry to see Saab go, yes they haven't produced anything even remotely interesting recently, but still the world wouldn't be right without Saab.

Fortunately the Sweedish Government are seriously thinking of giving them and Volvo a big bail out and there's talk about the 2 brands going back under Sweedish ownership. That would be the best news I'd have heard in a long time, for Saab in particular. I want to see quirky Saabs back on the roads, after GM doing their best to ruin Saab.

Otherwise the world will be full of more soulless, dull and boring Toyotas, and that would be the real tradgedy out of all this.

If Ford go then the only mass produce car maker genuinely committed to making cars involving and exciting to drive will be gone. The last tenuous links that this country has with the car would be gone too.

That is why Fords are brilliant, they manage to do everything like comfort, space, quality etc as well as their rivals BUT they throw in a car that is great fun to drive as well. And even though they make dynamically superior cars they don't even charge you more for this privilege. While other makes are putting in crappy electric power steering set ups and doing their best to get rid of driving pleasure, Ford are still at it making cars that put as smile on your face.

Mazda deserves an honourable mention for this too. Some VW group cars are good to drive as well, but some are definitely not.

The real problem is that GM's and Ford'a European operations make great cars but back in the US GM and Ford sell their customers the utmost in absolute sh!te. No wonder the Americans think that Japmobiles are so far ahead of their American counterparts, the Japs sell the Yanks the same stuff we get and here Japanese cars tend to get poor reviews and the cars that have US parents like Ford and Opel are often top of the class(especially Mitsubishi, Nissan and Toyota).

What petrolhead here wants to see more white good washing machine type vehicles on our roads?

Alun

Looks like the bail-out hasn't made it through the Senate after all.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/motoring/3722677/US-car-bail-out-collapse-Senate-puts-one-in-ten-US-jobs-on-the-line.html

Deedsie

Will this open up a massive market to European manufacturers? VW, Peugot, Renault, Fiat etc?

itarumaa

JayeL wrote: »

GM should hold on to Chevrolet and Saturn but chuck Saab, Cadillac and Hummer; prestige cars not needed in this climate.

I would not be happy to see Cadillac and Saab to go, both have a great history and both brands gives something extra.

Daewoo otherhand...hmm:) I even drive Daewoo and that is the reason I wound not be sad if Daewoo/Chevrolet would vanish. Also Hummer, I don´t see anything good about their cars, specially H2 feels like a joke, H1 was quite cool tough.

itarumaa

Cookie_Monster wrote: »

Just imagine what will happen to Detroit too if they collapsed, the city would simply fail as unemployment skyrocketed and tax revenues were cut massivly. It would end up like somewhere in Africa

If you study a little bit Detroit history, then you realize that this is the case already, Detroid have not been the car capital since 70´, and now they are not doing too good.

Cookie_Monster

itarumaa wrote: »

If you study a little bit Detroit history, then you realize that this is the case already, Detroid have not been the car capital since 70´, and now they are not doing too good.

The 3 largest employers in Detroit as of 2007 are:

Ford Motor Company 55,342
General Motors 41,861
Chrysler LLC 32,597

Source: Crain's Detroit Business (2007

Stephen

JayeL wrote: »

Chinese companies would be lining up to get their hands on Buick, it's GM's volume brand in China as it's got major brand recognition, much more than Chevy.

Indeed, the amount of Daewoos driving about with buick badges on them over there is mad. VW are still the daddy in China though

zilog_jones

I really can't see Ford going under any time soon, considering their success outside the US (and even their current line-up in the US isn't *too* bad). Not too sure about GM and Chrysler though.

If GM did die, it would be interesting to see what happens to Opel/Vauxhall, GM Daewoo and Holden. For the record, GM have divested from Isuzu and Suzuki in recent years.

ninty9er

Cookie_Monster wrote: »

Now now, the cars may not be great but the ships aren't half bad:D


As much as i would like to see them go for their uselessness and incompitance, there are simply to many businesses and jobs relying on them for the US economy to survive their demise. iirc thare are 6 million jobs linked directly or indirectly...

A good lot of that is Japanese manufacturers.

Deedsie wrote: »

Will this open up a massive market to European manufacturers? VW, Peugot, Renault, Fiat etc?

VW already has a considerable North American market and Fiat have started expanding in the last 4-5 years too.

Cookie_Monster wrote: »

The 3 largest employers in Detroit as of 2007 are:

Ford Motor Company 55,342
General Motors 41,861
Chrysler LLC 32,597

Source: Crain's Detroit Business (2007

The US has a population of 300m, the UK about 70m

If the UK govt can let 30,000 jobs disappear without a bailout for Woolworths, and then the peripherals that supply over 800 stores, it equates to about the same as the "Big 3" and their delaer networks falling in the US. There is a massive opportunity for management buyouts of the European operations, with the German Federal Government and state parliaments of Hessen, Thüringen, Nordrhein-Westfallen and Rheinland Pfalz ready to provide funding to underwrite Opel's loans. Opel ain't going nowhere, but the Germans may seek to detach it from GM in order to ensure the underwriting isn't transferred within the company.

Sat in an Insignia the other day BTW, wasn't overwhelmed, and of all things, the door lock buttons were extremely off putting, they would have been better off burying them in the door with no access, they look really cheap. (I know, you'd think I've little to be worrying about.....feckin management accounting exam:mad::mad::mad:)

Saab and Volvo could do well if taken back under Swedish control and efforts were made to bring them back to their roots, with all Volvos being tanks on rubber and Saab being ground running aircraft.

There is ample opportunity for European companies in Ford and GM to capitalise on the misfortune of Motown and start exporting the likes of the Mondeo, Insignia, Euro Focus, Galaxy, Zafira etc to the States. If the companies are focusing all R&D on 1 D segment car for a global market instead of the same car modified 1,000 ways for different markets, quality can only improve. Toyota may discontinue the Avensis in response and we can all have cheaper Camrys:D:D

I'm motoring biased, but with the amount of engineers we educate in this country and the amount of unskilled labour out of work, I never understood why we don't have our own motor industry.

One good thing that may come of this is that we'll all have Opels as opposed to Europe having Opel, UK having Vauxhall, South East and Australasia having Holden and US having Saturn.

Good riddance to bad rubbish and here's to survival of the fittest.

**Off topic**

The spelling, grammar and punctuation of some normally fine posters among others is absolutely dire in this thread.

TommyT

Should any government really have to bail out an unsustainable business?
Quck hint for the car makers, build cars that people actually want to buy, not crap that only Avis, Hertz and Co will buy.

ninty9er

On a side note, 2 lecturers I had last year have been watching and commentating on the downfall of GM to classes for the past 3/4 years.

It's all in the financial statements.

Cionád

ninty9er wrote: »

The US has a population of 300m, the UK about 70m

If the UK govt can let 30,000 jobs disappear without a bailout for Woolworths, and then the peripherals that supply over 800 stores, it equates to about the same as the "Big 3" and their delaer networks falling in the US.

Yea but Woolworths employed a few hundred people in each town, whereas the downfall of the Big 3 would have severe consequences at city and state level - for Detroit & Michigan. The population of Detroit is lower than the pop. of Ireland.

Zube

I love this:

ninty9er

Cionád wrote: »

Yea but Woolworths employed a few hundred people in each town, whereas the downfall of the Big 3 would have severe consequences at city and state level - for Detroit & Michigan. The population of Detroit is lower than the pop. of Ireland.

Think North of England an mining towns ion the 80s so.

The people of those towns will never forgive Thatcher, but it doesn't mean she was wrong.

unkel

Stephen wrote: »

The UAW shot themselves in the foot again.

And maybe for the last time. Did I read somewhere that a typical blue collar worker in the car industry in Detroit earns the guts of $100k? Completely unsustainable...

Zube

unkel wrote: »

And maybe for the last time. Did I read somewhere that a typical blue collar worker in the car industry in Detroit earns the guts of $100k? Completely unsustainable...

Here's a handy chart showing where the costs go:

peasant

problem is though ...this could have an avalanche effect.

On the face of it, no more dinosaur american cars sounds like a good thing, but there are other consequences.

The demise of the American car industry could (will?) drag down several european brands with it. This would almost certainly lead to closures in the Automotive supply sector also. Several of the large suppliers are struggling as it is. If a company like Bosch for example closed tomorrow, there would just not be any more American cars...there wouldn't be any cars any more.:eek:

Very few car makers these days are highly profitable, even fewer have a "war chest" of cash. The situation in the supply industry is even worse. It's mostly a question of turnover over profit. Take away a significant percentage of the turnover and they'll just go tits up ...end of the car industry as we know it.

Guy:Incognito

bigkev49 wrote: »

Vauxhall VX220
.

They just rebadged the Lotus elise. If someone gave me a few million quid I could do that too.


I'm not in favour of these payouts at all. The whole point of private industry is that they are private. Otherwise we should just make verythign state owned and start stdying Lenin.

I work for a small plumbing company. (20 or so employees). Why does my company deserve free money any less than a big company if they get into trouble? How many companies and how much of the country do we keep bailing out to make everything ok? Theres not an infinite stream of cash in any economy to keep bailing them out.


If they are losing €52,000 a minute its because they are beign run badly. Chucking money at them wont change that.

swingking

Stekelly wrote: »

They just rebadged the Lotus elise. If someone gave me a few million quid I could do that too.


I'm not in favour of these payouts at all. The whole point of private industry is that they are private. Otherwise we should just make verythign state owned and start stdying Lenin.

I work for a small plumbing company. (20 or so employees). Why does my company deserve free money any less than a big company if they get into trouble? How many companies and how much of the country do we keep bailing out to make everything ok? Theres not an infinite stream of cash in any economy to keep bailing them out.


If they are losing €52,000 a minute its because they are beign run badly. Chucking money at them wont change that.

What does it matter to you if GM gets bailed out. It doesn't affect you in the slightest!!

A lot of people are going to lose their jobs because of this. Show some consideration for those people

Guy:Incognito

swingking wrote: »

What does it matter to you if GM gets bailed out. It doesn't affect you in the slightest!!

A lot of people are going to lose their jobs because of this. Show some consideration for those people

I was talking about all the bailouts. ie similar ones for the banks etc.

Who is going to have consideration or care when I lose my job? It's the nature of of privat ebusiness. Iyou have a private company and get all the benifits of a boom into your own pockets, why should taxpayers money go to you when times are bad?

ninty9er

swingking wrote: »

What does it matter to you if GM gets bailed out. It doesn't affect you in the slightest!!

A lot of people are going to lose their jobs because of this. Show some consideration for those people

Like the US showed consideration by dropping its corporation tax rate to 5.25% to bring back all the profits we had been taxing until 2004??

Those jobs are no concern of mine. If it was my neighbour or someone, or that 100,000 people going on the dole in Ireland overnight, then it would be of concern to me, but frankly 100,000 people joining the 500,000 people that lost their jobs in the US LAST MONTSH....not MY problem, not YOUR problem and not STEKELLY's problem unless he's Henry Paulson in disguise posting on Boards.ie

Stekelly wrote: »

I was talking about all the bailouts. ie similar ones for the banks etc.

Who is going to have consideration or care when I lose my job? It's the nature of of privat ebusiness. Iyou have a private company and get all the benifits of a boom into your own pockets, why should taxpayers money go to you when times are bad?

It shouldn't. Consumers don't need GM, they do need banks though.

On the issue of Bosch etc....they've cut their working week, scale backs wil be necessary, but the lost output of these manufacturers is going to have to be partially replaced, most likely in Europe and Japan.

swingking

ninty9er wrote: »

not YOUR problem

Well actually it IS my problem. I work on an IT servicedesk who support GM. When GM goes, I'm going to lose my job. Now think about that !!

G Luxel

I think that the Buicks on sale in China are badge engineered Corsas. Anything that GM makes is just plain badge-engineering. Whats an opel here is a saturn overthere. As for the govenment not bailing them out, then if they go, the American Car Industry will just be all European and Japanese makes such as Toyota, Nissan, Honda and BMW who have plants there as well as R and D. Rover went to the wall and they were never bailed out by the UK government. The brand just appeared in another part of the world purchased by the Chinese.

Stephen

Eh, Rover/British Leyland were bailed out several times at the expense of the UK tax payer over their lifespan before the British government finally let them die a couple of years ago.

Guy:Incognito

Stephen wrote: »

Eh, Rover/British Leyland were bailed out several times at the expense of the UK tax payer over their lifespan before the British government finally let them die a couple of years ago.

Exacty. So all hands point to not making that mistake again.

swingking wrote: »

Well actually it IS my problem. I work on an IT servicedesk who support GM. When GM goes, I'm going to lose my job. Now think about that !!

Think about what? Doesnt change a thing.

The company I work for directly will most likely fold in the new year. Wheres our bailout so?

ninty9er

swingking wrote: »

Well actually it IS my problem. I work on an IT servicedesk who support GM. When GM goes, I'm going to lose my job. Now think about that !!

If GM is the only customer, the company deserves to go down for lack of a back-up plan. If the company has a good business model and strategic unit then your job is safe.

maidhc

ninty9er wrote: »

If GM is the only customer, the company deserves to go down for lack of a back-up plan. If the company has a good business model and strategic unit then your job is safe.

That is a stupid comment. Many many companies have only one large client. It isn't ideal, but sometimes that is the nature of things.

VolvoMan

ninty9er wrote: »

If GM is the only customer, the company deserves to go down for lack of a back-up plan. If the company has a good business model and strategic unit then your job is safe.

And what will happen if GM go down? It will pull the most of the motor industry all around the world down with them and Toyota's march for world domination will continue. I know personally that I would prefer seeing the decent new cars that GM have been producing lately like the Insignia rather than the likes of the awful and incompetent new Avensis.

Saab Ed

Im not 100% sure when I say this but im sure I read somewhere that GM and Ford are only loosing money in the states and that everywhere else, in particular Europe they are making good money. I cant see GM falling myself. I think its just more of a hand forcer by the US Gov against the United car workers union.

unkel

Saab Ed wrote: »

I think its just more of a hand forcer by the US Gov against the United car workers union.

I'd like to think so too. But what if the union decides not to cave in and instead call the bluff and the Gov washes their hands off them? Very big companies have disappeared overnight recently because they weren't spared / saved...