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Lisbon 2

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  • 12-12-2008 8:01am
    #1
    Mahatma coat
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 6,869 ✭✭✭


    Right, it would appear that the people of IReland will be asked to vote again on the Lisbon treaty.

    this is thread for discussing that referendum

    this is not a thread for,

    Discussin vague wishy washy RFID plots

    Discussing the Finances of Libertas


    I also dont want to se Tit for Tat, well you obviously havent a feckin clue posts either, we are entitled to hold opinions, if you disagree explain why, demeaning and degrading posts will not be tolerated.

    If it is obvious to you that another poster has not understood the treaty dont just say go away and read it, unless you have read it yourself, if you have read it yourself then you should have no trouble quoting the relevant section to back up your point.


    what I want to see here is clear and concise reasons why you feel that you will vote one way or the other.

    so let the convincing comence


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    #2
    RandolphEsq
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,296 ✭✭✭RandolphEsq


    This treaty will not change anything radically, it allows for swifter more straightforward decision-making in the EU.
    Whilst I am of the opinion that the EU, to the average man, is quite distant and apparently untouchable, the Lisbon Treaty hopes to make it easier to get things done in Lisbon which will allow for a slightly more approachable EU. Of course it will still seem unapproachable but this will be a step inthe right direction.
    The fears of radical change are unjustified. This fear comes from people not feeling a sense of approachability with the EU i.e. the unknown.But the Lisbon Treaty cannot impose radical changes in aspects of our lives that are likely to stir widespread emotion.
    The treaty should be passed


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    #3
    Gareth37
    Closed Accounts Posts: 909 ✭✭✭Gareth37


    BrightEyes wrote: »
    This treaty will not change anything radically, it allows for swifter more straightforward decision-making in the EU.
    Whilst I am of the opinion that the EU, to the average man, is quite distant and apparently untouchable, the Lisbon Treaty hopes to make it easier to get things done in Lisbon which will allow for a slightly more approachable EU. Of course it will still seem unapproachable but this will be a step inthe right direction.
    The fears of radical change are unjustified. This fear comes from people not feeling a sense of approachability with the EU i.e. the unknown.But the Lisbon Treaty cannot impose radical changes in aspects of our lives that are likely to stir widespread emotion.
    The treaty should be passed

    NO to Abortion

    NO to War

    NO to New World Order

    NO to Lisbon

    NO NO NO

    We said NO the last time and we want a NO the next time


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    #4
    Shazbot
    Registered Users Posts: 813 ✭✭✭Shazbot


    Jesus, you couldn't get 2 posts in before it went horribly off topic.

    Unfortunately this is a CT forum and if you want a rational discussion about this Mahatma then head over to the politics forum.

    I appreciate your urge to bring a sense of rational thinking to the forum but this topic isn't right for this forum.


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    #5
    King Mob
    Registered Users Posts: 25,229 ✭✭✭✭King Mob


    Gareth37 wrote: »
    NO to Abortion

    NO to War

    NO to New World Order

    NO to Lisbon

    NO NO NO

    We said NO the last time and we want a NO the next time

    So you obviously know nothing about the Lisbon treaty.
    In fact it's because of ridiculous beliefs like this that the EU has to give guarantees in the second vote.

    But hey if you want to buy into propaganda instead of viewing the facts....


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    #6
    Sofa_King Good
    Closed Accounts Posts: 857 ✭✭✭Sofa_King Good


    BrightEyes wrote: »
    This treaty will not change anything radically, it allows for swifter more straightforward decision-making in the EU.
    Whilst I am of the opinion that the EU, to the average man, is quite distant and apparently untouchable, the Lisbon Treaty hopes to make it easier to get things done in Lisbon which will allow for a slightly more approachable EU. Of course it will still seem unapproachable but this will be a step inthe right direction.
    The fears of radical change are unjustified. This fear comes from people not feeling a sense of approachability with the EU i.e. the unknown.But the Lisbon Treaty cannot impose radical changes in aspects of our lives that are likely to stir widespread emotion.
    The treaty should be passed

    "Straightforward" ??? Did you, perchance write the treaty?? "Whilst I am of the opinion that the EU, to the average man, is quite distant and apparently untouchable" ..."This fear comes from people not feeling a sense of approachability with the EU i.e. the unknown" Does this mean you fear the EU?. I am not trying to be smart I am just confused. I didn't vote in the last referendum because I wasn't fully sure on what I was voting for.


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    #7
    Sofa_King Good
    Closed Accounts Posts: 857 ✭✭✭Sofa_King Good


    King Mob wrote: »
    So you obviously know nothing about the Lisbon treaty.
    In fact it's because of ridiculous beliefs like this that the EU has to give guarantees in the second vote.

    But hey if you want to buy into propaganda instead of viewing the facts....

    ... which are as you see them?


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    #8
    King Mob
    Registered Users Posts: 25,229 ✭✭✭✭King Mob


    Sofa_King Good wrote: »
    ... which are as you see them?
    It will make the EU more efficient. And give it greater economic power.


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    #9
    BroomBurner
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,737 ✭✭✭BroomBurner


    King Mob wrote: »
    It will make the EU more efficient. And give it greater economic power.

    Do we want them to have more economic power?

    Seeing as this is the CT forum, maybe we could use this thread to discuss what everyone thinks is the reality (as they see it) behind the Lisbon Treaty.

    Or, even better, what do you think went on during Cowen's travels around the EU over the week, and did they pick now (i.e. during the pig scandal) to launch this in the hope that one would dampen the other in terms of the media?


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    #10
    Sofa_King Good
    Closed Accounts Posts: 857 ✭✭✭Sofa_King Good


    King Mob wrote: »
    It will make the EU more efficient. And give it greater economic power.

    OK, but how/why? I'm really want to get both sides


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    #11
    King Mob
    Registered Users Posts: 25,229 ✭✭✭✭King Mob


    BroomBurner wrote: »
    Do we want them to have more economic power?
    Yes. More money for the union = more money for us.
    BroomBurner wrote: »
    Seeing as this is the CT forum, maybe we could use this thread to discuss what everyone thinks is the reality (as they see it) behind the Lisbon Treaty.

    Or, even better, what do you think went on during Cowen's travels around the EU over the week, and did they pick now (i.e. during the pig scandal) to launch this in the hope that one would dampen the other in terms of the media?
    We have 2-3 of those threads already but they usually degenerate into "Europe is the Antichrist" or some such nonsense.


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    #12
    conceited
    Closed Accounts Posts: 891 ✭✭✭conceited


    Rules for posting in the %%%%'s thread!

    this is not a thread for,

    1 this is thread for discussing that referendum
    2 Discussin vague wishy washy RFID plots
    3 Discussing the Finances of Libertas
    4 what I want to see here is
    5 clear and concise reasons why you feel that you will vote one way or the other.

    looks like dictatorship to me.....



    I'm voting no because our government and the eu couldn't give a toss about it's people.


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    #13
    WhaLofShi
    Closed Accounts Posts: 114 ✭✭WhaLofShi


    BroomBurner wrote: »
    Do we want them to have more economic power?

    Seeing as this is the CT forum, maybe we could use this thread to discuss what everyone thinks is the reality (as they see it) behind the Lisbon Treaty.

    Or, even better, what do you think went on during Cowen's travels around the EU over the week, and did they pick now (i.e. during the pig scandal) to launch this in the hope that one would dampen the other in terms of the media?

    So you mean something along the lines of "our government orchestrated the pig thing so that we'd take our eye off the ball on the EU thing?"

    Or how about, "did the EFSA approve the pork in the hope that it would make them look better in the eyes of the Irish public, and so highlight the fact that the EU are the good guys and we should bote yes next time round?"

    Not much ammo here for a good CT I'm afraid.

    I have a question though, while I'm here. These guarantees that are being offered. Do they, in any way, change the treaty, meaning that other countries would have to re-ratify or is it all as is?


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    #14
    conceited
    Closed Accounts Posts: 891 ✭✭✭conceited


    The treaty is 99.9% the same as the nice treaty.They won't have to ratify it in full it's just a few lines of text .More of an amendment


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    #15
    GhostInTheRuins
    Registered Users Posts: 5,962 ✭✭✭GhostInTheRuins


    conceited wrote: »
    The treaty is 99.9% the same as the nice treaty.They won't have to ratify it in full it's just a few lines of text .More of an amendment

    What? I presume you mean the European constitution and not the Nice treaty?


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    #16
    conceited
    Closed Accounts Posts: 891 ✭✭✭conceited


    Yes your correct .


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    #17
    Sofa_King Good
    Closed Accounts Posts: 857 ✭✭✭Sofa_King Good


    Is it too early to start the Lisbon 3 thread?


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    #18
    King Mob
    Registered Users Posts: 25,229 ✭✭✭✭King Mob


    Sofa_King Good wrote: »
    OK, but how/why? I'm really want to get both sides

    Hopefully there is someone who can explain it alot better than me.


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    #19
    Sofa_King Good
    Closed Accounts Posts: 857 ✭✭✭Sofa_King Good


    King Mob wrote: »
    Hopefully there is someone who can explain it alot better than me.

    fair enough


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    #20
    Run_to_da_hills
    Closed Accounts Posts: 20,009 ✭✭✭✭Run_to_da_hills


    King Mob wrote: »
    It will make the EU more efficient. And give it greater economic power.
    It will make the EU more efficient. And give it economic TOTALITARIAN power :)


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    #21
    thecommander
    Registered Users Posts: 2,537 ✭✭✭thecommander


    Run_to_da_hills wrote: »
    And give it economic TOTALITARIAN power :)

    Must have missed that part, where does it say it? Or have you still not read it?


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    #22
    King Mob
    Registered Users Posts: 25,229 ✭✭✭✭King Mob


    thecommander wrote: »
    Must have missed that part, where does it say it? Or have you still not read it?
    My money's on he still hasn't.
    Never let something like facts and reality to get in the way of a good conspiracy.


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    #23
    Barryt06
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3 ✭Barryt06


    I am not currently registered to vote but I will be registering, to vote no for this treaty, what I dont like about this is a) It takes away power from the indiviual country's. b) it will eventually lead to something very bad (yes i know thats vague i will explain below) and lastly, this one I find is quite funny actually... when the lisbon treaty appeared we were asked to vote yes or no. we could vote yes and it would go ahead yay,cheers,etc,etc or we could vote no.... and then vote again. So seriously if we vote no this time will they just make Lisbon Treaty Ver1.03? .04 .05 etc That I think is also a bad sign, if this is for the people and the people dont want it why are they being so pushy? To explain my vague point above. Something that was mentioned in the first lisbon treaty was to do with a new card that would act as an ATM/Laser card and identity card. This was supposed to eventually replace cash. Now I personally like this idea, but the card was a government card nd that was the problem. The govermnment have no right let alone need to know what I/you buy whereever we are in the EU. I apologise if the information on the card is wrong. I heard about the card from a friend when the first treaty was being decided upon.


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    #24
    King Mob
    Registered Users Posts: 25,229 ✭✭✭✭King Mob


    Barryt06 wrote: »
    I am not currently registered to vote but I will be registering, to vote no for this treaty, what I dont like about this is a) It takes away power from the indiviual country's. b) it will eventually lead to something very bad (yes i know thats vague i will explain below) and lastly, this one I find is quite funny actually... when the lisbon treaty appeared we were asked to vote yes or no. we could vote yes and it would go ahead yay,cheers,etc,etc or we could vote no.... and then vote again. So seriously if we vote no this time will they just make Lisbon Treaty Ver1.03? .04 .05 etc That I think is also a bad sign, if this is for the people and the people dont want it why are they being so pushy? To explain my vague point above. Something that was mentioned in the first lisbon treaty was to do with a new card that would act as an ATM/Laser card and identity card. This was supposed to eventually replace cash. Now I personally like this idea, but the card was a government card nd that was the problem. The govermnment have no right let alone need to know what I/you buy whereever we are in the EU. I apologise if the information on the card is wrong. I heard about the card from a friend when the first treaty was being decided upon.
    There is nothing in the Lisbon treaty about ID/ATM cards. You really should research points like this.


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