FWMS - Major Problem

reilig

Here's the story...

Both me any my neighbour have build slatted sheds costing €90k to €100k. Sheds have just been finished. Contractor was responsible for fully completing both on a price. Have paid for the last part of the shed today as per the contract and the contractor says that he will have all receipts and certs to me within 7 days (needs to be lodged with the dept to claim grant before 31 Dec). Problem is that I have already been contacted by the company who supplied the slats to the contractor to say that they have not been paid for the slats which were laid almost 6 months ago. Slats supplier says that he will not issue the slat cert without payment - I cannot draw the grant without the slat cert. Contractor used an array of concrete suppliers for the tank, walls etc. So I'm not even sure that they have been paid and do not know if they have issued the certs for my concrete.

Teagasc have asked the department if they will pay even if I have no certs. They have said no certs no payment. However they have advised me to pay contractor in full and get whatever certs I can so that I can at least claim the grant on what I have certs on and I may have some legal reproach on the other stuff. Contractor has said to me no payment to him, no certs and has guaranteed that he will have them within 7 days, but I am worried. Does anyone know if there is any clause or exception that might allow me to claim the grant in the FWMS in the event of the certs not appearing? To me it feels like the contractor has stolen from me. I paid him for work done, yet he failed to pay his suppliers and I have to lose out because of this. I had to pay him because he did the work, but without the certs I cannot claim the grant.

Any advice appreciated. Neighbour in exact same boat.

I have no experience of this but I think you need to get some solicitors letters out to the contractor pronto.

Ask your solicitor if you can sue the contractor for the loss of the grants because of his non delivery of certs.

I don't think you can force the subcontractors to do much as you have no contract / agreement with them.

caesar

Again I don't have a whole lot of experience with this type of thing but the key thing here is as always time.

I have no idea what was in your contract but was there any mention of the certs i.e that the contractor had to hand certs over to yourself upon payment for the completed works or something to that effect.

The other thing is that getting a solicitor is a good idea but as you said yourself the deadline is the 31st and with the run up to Christmas it will be more difficult to get this sorted. Maybe you could get a solicitors letter and deliver it personally and get one sent out as well - maybe thats a bad idea but this guy needs something to hurry him up. You need to really push this - within reason of course, there is a large sum of money at stake here and its clear that you should be the last person out of pocket.

BTW: The 31st of December is a ridiculous date for a deadline imo. Maybe there is a logic to this, but messing with these kinds of things at this time of year seems like the last thing anyone would want, including the department.

Best of luck OP.....don't back down anyway

reilig

caesar wrote: »

Again I don't have a whole lot of experience with this type of thing but the key thing here is as always time.

I have no idea what was in your contract but was there any mention of the certs i.e that the contractor had to hand certs over to yourself upon payment for the completed works or something to that effect.

The other thing is that getting a solicitor is a good idea but as you said yourself the deadline is the 31st and with the run up to Christmas it will be more difficult to get this sorted. Maybe you could get a solicitors letter and deliver it personally and get one sent out as well - maybe thats a bad idea but this guy needs something to hurry him up. You need to really push this - within reason of course, there is a large sum of money at stake here and its clear that you should be the last person out of pocket.

BTW: The 31st of December is a ridiculous date for a deadline imo. Maybe there is a logic to this, but messing with these kinds of things at this time of year seems like the last thing anyone would want, including the department.

Best of luck OP.....don't back down anyway

Both me and my neighbour have already spoken to our solicitor and we are determined to work on this together. The contract that we signed with the contractor stated that he would supply all certs provided that we have paid him in full by 31 December so legally we have a strong footing. Solicitor has already contacted the contractor to highlight the situation and the consequences of him not providing the certs. Contractor swears that he will have them by early next week. However, after speaking to the slat supplier, contractor has told him that he does not know when he will have the money for him or if he will ever have it! It's worrying because I have almost €60k on a bridging loan which I had hoped to pay back with the grant. As you can imagine at this time, the bank is getting a bit edgy too and wondering when they're going to get their money back.

My point above is that I have paid for the shed in full and i have receipts for this, its not my fault that the contractor cannot provide the certs. There has to be some clause with the Department of Agriculture that will allow them to pay me without these certs - after all, I have paid out the money. Does anyone know if there is? I'm sure I'm not the only farmer in this situation, there has to be other contractors under pressure for money to pay their suppliers too???

snowman707

You have your receipt for the work so if the certs. don't show up before the deadline make sure you get all the papers you have got to the dept. in time,

you will also need a cert for the ready mix

a dipping cert for the any iron work that is galvanized

various electrician's certs.

c2 & tax clearance certs. from any contractor that done work

I would get your solicitor to lean on the contractor fairly heavily SOONER RATHER THAN LATER.


we done a slatted feeding passage & a few pens for weanlings last year but we paid for all the goods ourselves & paid individual contractors for labour, the day I went to the dept to lodge the grant claim I had more papers than a senior barrister in a tribunal


Don't forget you need the original invoices for your VAT refund.

Hope you get sorted without any more hassle.


PS:

I have read OP again, just keep on to him looking for the certs. if you have 60k on bridging loan you can't afford to lose 1c of this grant, as it is you most likely have occurred some interest at present

Again good luck .

Bitten & Hisses

IMO, unless your solicitor has some luck with the contractor, you're facing an uphill battle. The rule whereby the dept won't issue payment until all paperwork is lodged with them is there for a good reason, i.e. to prevent farmers claiming for grants when they hadn't paid the contractor. The problem is, this rule gives complete power to the contractor. I did a job under the FWMS last year and engaged the brother of a friend to do the structural steel element, including supply of all materials and erection of doors. I didn't have a written contract as I thought I wouldn't need one, what with the guy being well known to me.
Fast forward to the end of the job. The shed is erected and all cladding is fitted; the whole job is beautiful. When I asked him about when he was returning to fit the doors, he told me we hadn't done a deal for doors and it would cost €x thousand. Of course, he timed this beautifully, in that he waited until he had 95% of the work done (and money got) to drop this bombshell. Essentially, he was holding my invoice and certs to ransom until he got paid extra for making the doors. The same thing is happening with you and your slat certs.
Is it possible that you can give him the final payment when you can see the slat cert in his hand?

fastrac

Most shed guys wont put doors in the price unless you specify them.Theres a lot of hard lessons going to be learned in the next few weeks.

reilig

I think I might have it sorted with a lot of pressure from the Solicitor. Slat contractor got paid and has told my solicitor that he will send the certs today. Solicitor has final cheque for the contractor. In the last week, I have heard of several other farmers in the same boat with different contractors. There's a lot of money going to be lost by farmers because of negligent contractors. Hopefully I'm not going to be one of these contractors. Will keep ye informed how it works out.

Bitten & Hisses wrote: »

IMO, unless your solicitor has some luck with the contractor, you're facing an uphill battle. The rule whereby the dept won't issue payment until all paperwork is lodged with them is there for a good reason, i.e. to prevent farmers claiming for grants when they hadn't paid the contractor. The problem is, this rule gives complete power to the contractor. I did a job under the FWMS last year and engaged the brother of a friend to do the structural steel element, including supply of all materials and erection of doors. I didn't have a written contract as I thought I wouldn't need one, what with the guy being well known to me.
Fast forward to the end of the job. The shed is erected and all cladding is fitted; the whole job is beautiful. When I asked him about when he was returning to fit the doors, he told me we hadn't done a deal for doors and it would cost €x thousand. Of course, he timed this beautifully, in that he waited until he had 95% of the work done (and money got) to drop this bombshell. Essentially, he was holding my invoice and certs to ransom until he got paid extra for making the doors. The same thing is happening with you and your slat certs.
Is it possible that you can give him the final payment when you can see the slat cert in his hand?

Bitten & Hisses

fastrac wrote: »

Most shed guys wont put doors in the price unless you specify them.Theres a lot of hard lessons going to be learned in the next few weeks.

That's correct. Normally, they'd put up the track and flashing and let the doors to others. This was specifically included in the deal I made with the guy and was one of the main reasons he got the job, but he got selective amnesia when it suited him. Anyhoo, a costly lesson learnt on my part and I'll just have to try and resist strangling him when I next see him.

Reilig, well done on getting a satisfactory outcome. You're lucky to have a good solicitor to act in your interest.

fastrac

Closing date for Tax Certs andd Concrete Certs extended to January 9 2009.All else still Dec 31 2008

reilig

fastrac wrote: »

Closing date for Tax Certs andd Concrete Certs extended to January 9 2009.All else still Dec 31 2008

Thankfully I got everything in on Christmas Eve. I expect its going to be months before they come to inspect the shed and probably mid summer till we receive any money for it.

http://www.farmersjournal.ie/2009/0103/farmmanagement/farmbuildings/index.shtml

Farmers have been given an extra nine days to submit some of the paperwork relating to the Farm Waste Management Scheme.