Why is Homosexuality 'wrong'?

jasonb

Hi there,

Before I get onto the topic of this post, I just want to clarify that I'm not trolling here, I'm not looking an argument or trying to upset anyone. I am genuinely curious about this.

A few days ago I was watching an old episode of West Wing, which I'd seen before. It's the one where a Radio Talk Show Host has quoted Leviticus, saying Homosexuality is an abomination. The President uses what I consider is a well known argument, also pointing out that the Bible say you can be put to death for working on the Sabbath etc. etc.

Anyhow, this time it got me thinking. I am open to correction here, but as far as I understand, the current stance of the Catholic Church ( I'm going with the Church I am most familiar with ) is that Homosexuality is wrong. I am assuming ( perhaps also incorrectly ) that this isn't just based on text from the Bible, as the above argument shows that other text from the Bible isn't considered 'law' as such.

So, I guess my question is this, when or how was it 'declared' by the Catholic Church that Homosexuality is wrong. I know I'm probably coming from a simplistic point of view, but was it something decided by a Pope, is there an official Decree on a certain date etc? It's one of those things I've assumed I just know ( i.e. the Catholic Church considers homosexuality wrong ) but I never really questioned it.

As said at the beginning, I'm not trying to cause hassle here, and I don't want a discussion on whether homosexuality IS right or wrong. All I'd like is an explanation ( not a defence or attack! ) of the Catholic Church's position. Thanks!

J.

philologos

There has been several threads on this subject already in several forums. The search function will help you find useful opinions.

robindch

jasonb wrote: »

my question is this, when or how was it 'declared' by the Catholic Church that Homosexuality is wrong.

To a greater or lesser extent, most of the many strands of christian belief have had problems with accepting what gay men do. It's not something that's happens only in the catholic church.

This has been the case pretty much since since Paul said that gay men were "offenders", their actions were "perversions" in the same sense as adulterers, prostitutes, thieves, drunks and slanderers, and that they are to be denied access to heaven. A short summary of the relevant quotes from the bible is here.

I'm sure you can find plenty of stuff on the Vatican website, but the most influential document currently doing the rounds is a letter which Ratzinger wrote in 1986 when he was head of the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith, in which he extended Paul's opinion and referred to gay men as having a "condition", that they were "intrinsically disordered" and were suffering from an "intrinsic moral evil", thereby seeming to put them apparently in the same boat as murderers (which Paul did not).

That letter is available here:

http://www.vatican.va/roman_curia/congregations/cfaith/documents/rc_con_cfaith_doc_19861001_homosexual-persons_en.html

jasonb

Thanks for your replies. I had done some searching and had found quite a few topics about Homosexuality and the Catholic Church, but none that seemed to answer my question. That's not to say they're not out there of course, I made the decision not to spend several hours reading every topic in the hope it would apply to my question!

Robindch, I take it I'd be wrong to think, from your post, that the Catholic Church currently thinks Homosexuality is wrong because of a letter a Cardinal wrote 20 years ago? I guess what this really comes down to is my lack of understanding on how the Catholic Church 'works' as such. By the way, I'm picking the Catholic Church as it was the faith I was brought up in, I'm not trying to make an example of them, I just thought it would be easy to specify a particular Church. In the same vein, I guess I could have picked a different sin, other that Homosexuality. And just to be fair, I mean women and men when I discuss Homosexuality, I assume the Catholic Church do too.

So, let me ask the question a different way. Considering that some of the Bible is now 'ignored' or considered irrelevant in this day and age ( working on the Sabbath etc. ), then how do the Catholic Church decide what's a sin and what isn't, assuming of course that it's not mentioned in the 10 Commandments. I have a vague recollection of 'new sins' being announced several years ago ( something like terrorism etc. ), who decides that? Is it the Pope, as God's representative on earth?

And if that's how it works, when was this decided about Homosexuality? Or is it a position that's been held over many centuries and doesn't have a 'came into law at this time, due to this declaration' associated with it? Does that make sense?

J.

The Mad Hatter

I think the Catholic Church's official stance is that it's not a sin to be homosexual, but it is a sin to practice homosexuality.

jasonb

I read that letter, quite interesting actually, thanks for the link!

What it says ( well, my understanding anyhow ) is that the Bible says in several places that Homosexuality is wrong, and since then the Church has believed it to be wrong, and taught it to be wrong, so the basis for Homosexuality being wrong today is a mixture of the what's written in the Bible and the constant belief of the Church since then.

So, assuming I've read that right ( and I don't pretend to be well versed enough in these matters so I could be wrong ), that to me means that it was never actually declared as wrong ( i.e. by a Pope or whatever ), but instead it's wrong because of what's in the Bible and what the Church has believed and taught since then.

Does that make sense?

I've heard the phrase 'hate the sin, not the sinner' and the letter quoted above clearly states that Homosexuals should not be treated differently, etc. etc. I don't think the Church hates Homosexuals at all. Like I said, this isn't really a thread about whether Homosexuality IS wrong or not, I'm just trying to get a sense of why and when the Catholic Church decided it was a sin.

J.

robindch

jasonb wrote: »

I take it I'd be wrong to think, from your post, that the Catholic Church currently thinks Homosexuality is wrong because of a letter a Cardinal wrote 20 years ago?

Nope, that's not right. As I said, that letter is the Vatican's current "last word" on the topic, but it follows from a long line of similar pronouncements made by various members of the church over the years and extending back, I've no doubt, as far as the Vatican archives go.

jasonb wrote: »

Considering that some of the Bible is now 'ignored' or considered irrelevant in this day and age ( working on the Sabbath etc. ), then how do the Catholic Church decide what's a sin and what isn't, assuming of course that it's not mentioned in the 10 Commandments.

That's a good question and one which doesn't really have an unambiguous answer.

First off, there are many, many different strands of christianity and in each of them, different activities and intentions attract differing degrees of opprobrium. In protestant circles in Africa, being a gay male is seen as being incredibly sinful, while in protestant circles in the UK, people aren't all that worried about it. Both sides will quote the bible in order to advance their position and both insist that their side is right for the same reason the other side is wrong (ie, that one bible quote or another says so).

Secondly, many christian belief systems, and certainly the CC, include a "primacy of conscience" (Sola Conscientia) clause somewhere or other. This, in effect, means that if you don't like what you think you're being told to believe, that you can choose to disagree with it and still remain a member of the church doing the telling. When you look at this critically, it means, in effect, that you can believe whatever you like and still call yourself a member of the religion -- this goes some way towards explaining why there are so many differing beliefs about what constitute "sin".

Thirdly, I don't really know the process by which new "sins" are determined by the Vatican. I assume that there's a proposal phase, a few discussion phases, then an approval phase, but I don't know the fine detail.

Finally, even the ten commandments (which contain nothing about homosexuality by the way) are not unambiguous -- there are actually more than ten, and which ones constitute the "ten" is not agreed amongst the differing christian traditions. The wiki page here has a good summary. Also, even the meaning of the text is disputed -- some people think the "don't kill" commandment means one thing, others believe it means something else. This degree of interpretive flexibility explains why so many people who think they believe in a consistent moral framework based upon christian doctrine or the ten commandments, actually believe things which are completely inconsistent.

JimiTime

I'm not a RC and just so you know, neither are any of the respoders. Jackass in Anglican and the rest are atheists. Kelly1 would be our main RC contributer, so he may correct me if I misrepresent. I am a non-denominational christian. Simply put, the RC position on Homosexuality is grounded in biblical teaching rather than papal declaration. Its also far from ambiguous. Our very sexual function testifies to this. If one believes we were created, its obvious what Gods intentions were for your sexual organs. So this knowledge, combined with biblical teaching is most likely why most Christian denominations including the RCC decree homosexuality wrong.

jasonb

Once again thanks for the replies!

What seems to be the consensus is that it's more based on the Bible and Biblical Teaching then in an particular Decree that was made.

It's interesting what you say JimiTime about 'if one believes that we were created, it's obvious what God's intentions were for your sexual organs'. Once again, I don't want to get into a 'is it right or wrong argument', but doesn't that mean that oral sex between two heterosexuals would also be considered a sin? Just going with the 'sexual organs were created by God to be used for one purpose only' logic?

Anyhow, that's a side track. I don't mind, or care, what the people who have responded believe or don't believe, I just appreciate the replies, it is giving me food for thought.

J.

JimiTime

jasonb wrote: »

It's interesting what you say JimiTime about 'if one believes that we were created, it's obvious what God's intentions were for your sexual organs'. Once again, I don't want to get into a 'is it right or wrong argument', but doesn't that mean that oral sex between two heterosexuals would also be considered a sin?

Yes. I think using the naturalistic logic, penis entering vagina, is the way God intended, anything that deviates from this is a perversion of the design. I think this would be obvious 'if one believes they were created'.

Mark Hamill

JimiTime wrote: »

Yes. I think using the naturalistic logic, penis entering vagina, is the way God intended, anything that deviates from this is a perversion of the design. I think this would be obvious 'if one believes they were created'.

If someone, lets say, gets gangrene and has to cut off their foot to survive, is that not a perversion of a design, ie the persons design, which I cant imagine naturalistically includes cutting off limbs. Is it not a perversion of the design of the disease causing gangrene, which was designed to do so (or so you would have to be believe if you believed that you were designed) and so stopping it would be a perversion.
Also if someone was homosexual, then isn't that part of their design? Would the perversion not be going against their designed homosexuality?

jasonb

I was hoping, against hope, that this wouldn't turn into a thread about what's right and wrong, and what people think are right and wrong. I'd really like this thread to stick to the topic of how / why / when did the Catholic Church decide Homosexuality was wrong. Thanks!

J.

JimiTime

Mark Hamill wrote: »

If someone, lets say, gets gangrene and has to cut off their foot to survive, is that not a perversion of a design, ie the persons design, which I cant imagine naturalistically includes cutting off limbs.

The gangerine itself is the problem. Death is not part of the design, but rather a product of the fall of man. Cutting ones foot off beacause you want to, I would consider to be sinful. If one has a sickness that requires such treatment, then so be it.

Also if someone was homosexual, then isn't that part of their design? Would the perversion not be going against their designed homosexuality?

From a Christian perspective, Man was designed sexually as Man to Woman, homosexuality was not part of that design. Neither was Beastiality, cannabalism, paedophilia etc. Yet people desire such things. I suppose one could call such things disease if we are saying that people have actually been born with these desires(Disease being something against the norm). Disease being a product of the fall rather than a product of our original design. Just like your gangerine example though, you cut it off before it consumes you. Same thing for perverse desires, be it hetero or homo or whatever. It should be cut off, to save oneself from being consumed by it.

Dave!

JimiTime wrote: »

Yes. I think using the naturalistic logic, penis entering vagina, is the way God intended, anything that deviates from this is a perversion of the design. I think this would be obvious 'if one believes they were created'.

I gather you don't believe that we were created and you're playing devils advocate...

But by that rationale, surely cancer is a naturally occuring disease, so pumping the body with chemicals to try and kill it is going against nature? We should just let god do his work. Or do we arbitrarily decide when it's okay to go against god's design?

JimiTime

jasonb wrote: »

I was hoping, against hope, that this wouldn't turn into a thread about what's right and wrong, and what people think are right and wrong. I'd really like this thread to stick to the topic of how / why / when did the Catholic Church decide Homosexuality was wrong. Thanks!

J.

Sorry, just seen your post. I was just replying to your question, and in turn to MH response to it. I'll refrain from going further with that conversation.

JimiTime

Dave! wrote: »

I gather you don't believe that we were created and you're playing devils advocate...

But by that rationale, surely cancer is a naturally occuring disease, so pumping the body with chemicals to try and kill it is going against nature? We should just let god do his work. Or do we arbitrarily decide when it's okay to go against god's design?

The OP has requested not to take the thread down this path, but if you want to take it elsewhere I'll answer.

Dave!

Nah not arsed... Also the OP was tl;dr

jasonb

JimiTime wrote: »

Sorry, just seen your post. I was just replying to your question, and in turn to MH response to it. I'll refrain from going further with that conversation.

No worries JimiTime! You're right, I did start it myself a bit by asking my question regarding Oral Sex, but I've seen how these threads can go, they can get very emotional very quickly and I'm not here to upset anyone. I do appreciate your thoughts and opinions, but I'd rather this didn't turn into a 'how can you say that?!' type of thread. Didn't mean to single you out though, sorry...

So, from what has been posted so far, it seems the Catholic Church considers Homosexuality a sin based on the Bible, Biblical Teachings over the centuries and some kind of 'natural law' argument. It doesn't seem to be because of an actual Decree or Decision by a Pope or something like that.

Thanks to everyone for their input, I'd appreciate any other thoughts or opinions on this topic if you have them!

J.

robindch

jasonb wrote: »

it seems the Catholic Church considers Homosexuality a sin based on the Bible, Biblical Teachings over the centuries and some kind of 'natural law' argument. It doesn't seem to be because of an actual Decree or Decision by a Pope or something like that.

Not quite -- it's a matter of "mission creep". Here's the story:

• Jesus ignores gay men and what they do and he says nothing about them.
• Paul (who never met Jesus, and who came along later) claims he's speaking with the authority of god and then writes some rather nasty letters which equate gay men with thieves and other moral degenerates.
• Time goes by and 2,000 years later the pope issues a letter saying that gays are "intrinsically evil" and are "objectively disordered", which is considerably in excess of what was said by either Paul or Jesus.

Nonetheless, what could be termed "moral prejudice" against homosexual men -- women are largely absent from this debate -- seems to be deeply ingrained in certain people and so far as I'm aware, they sincerely believe that they are implementing the policy set out by god, although there's really no unambiguous written policy in the bible anywhere.

I'm ignoring here, btw, the Leviticus texts which say in 20:13 that men who practice gay sex should be executed. Most churches either ignore this rule, or have developed elaborate explanations as to why it should be ignored.

Mark Hamill

Jimitime wrote:

The OP has requested not to take the thread down this path, but if you want to take it elsewhere I'll answer.

Okay, thread here

jasonb

robindch wrote: »

I'm ignoring here, btw, the Leviticus texts which say in 20:13 that men who practice gay sex should be executed. Most churches either ignore this rule, or have developed elaborate explanations as to why it should be ignored.

Ah, but looking at the letter linked to above ( http://www.vatican.va/roman_curia/congregations/cfaith/documents/rc_con_cfaith_doc_19861001_homosexual-persons_en.html ), that mentions several passages in the Bible that say Homosexuality is wrong ( see Section 6 of the letter ). Surely that means these passages are still being used by the Church as one of the reasons why it considers Homosexuality a sin?

J.

kelly1

robindch wrote: »

.....the most influential document currently doing the rounds is a letter which Ratzinger wrote in 1986 when he was head of the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith, in which he extended Paul's opinion and referred to gay men as having a "condition", that they were "intrinsically disordered" and were suffering from an "intrinsic moral evil", thereby seeming to put them apparently in the same boat as murderers (which Paul did not).

I think you've misunderstood the document.

Quoted from the doc:

These were described as deprived of their essential and indispensable finality, as being "intrinsically disordered", and able in no case to be approved of.

I believe the word "These" above refers to homosexual actions.

Although the particular inclination of the homosexual person is not a sin, it is a more or less strong tendency ordered toward an intrinsic moral evil; and thus the inclination itself must be seen as an objective disorder.


The "intrinsic moral evil" referred to is homosexual actions. I don't see how someone could suffer from an intrinsic moral evil. Surely this would have to be something committed?

robindch

jasonb wrote: »

Surely that means these passages are still being used by the Church as one of the reasons why it considers Homosexuality a sin?

Er, yes they are.

But like I said above, the Leviticus 20:13 reference says that gay men should be executed. Clearly, the church can't say that any more, so the church ignores that rule and creatively reinterprets it thusly:

Vatican wrote:

In Leviticus 18:22 and 20:13, in the course of describing the conditions necessary for belonging to the Chosen People, the author excludes from the People of God those who behave in a homosexual fashion. Against the background of this exposition of theocratic law, an eschatological perspective is developed by St. Paul when, in I Cor 6:9, he proposes the same doctrine and lists those who behave in a homosexual fashion among those who shall not enter the Kingdom of God.

Now, whatever about grand "eschatological perspectives", the fact is that the church does not go around saying that gay men should be executed, and it does not for, frankly, very obvious reasons. But it's clear enough that the church is using one piece of text to justify one view, while ignoring it when it comes to another view.

BTW, I'm not saying that any of this makes sense -- to me, it certainly does not. All I'm doing is pointing out what the CC (and other) churches are doing.

robindch

kelly1 wrote: »

The "intrinsic moral evil" referred to is homosexual actions.

Yes, that's right.

jasonb

robindch wrote: »

BTW, I'm not saying that any of this makes sense -- to me, it certainly does not. All I'm doing is pointing out what the CC (and other) churches are doing.

And that suits me fine, I don't want to discuss whether the Catholic Church's viewpoint or logic is correct or not, I just want to get as good an understanding as possible about what that viewpoint and logic is!

kelly1 wrote: »

The "intrinsic moral evil" referred to is homosexual actions.

This, to me, is the 'the sin is bad, not the sinner' type situation. The Catholic Church has a problem with the sin, not the sinner. This makes sense of course.

Whenever or wherever I've used the phrase 'homosexuality is a sin' etc., please take it that I mean 'homosexual acts'. Thanks!

J.

kelly1

jasonb wrote: »

So, I guess my question is this, when or how was it 'declared' by the Catholic Church that Homosexuality is wrong. I know I'm probably coming from a simplistic point of view, but was it something decided by a Pope, is there an official Decree on a certain date etc? It's one of those things I've assumed I just know ( i.e. the Catholic Church considers homosexuality wrong ) but I never really questioned it.

Moral teachings are always (afaik) decided by the Magisterium of the Church i.e the teaching authority of the Church. The teachings are based on Scripture, Tradition and the guidance of the Holy Spirit (as described in Scripture)

jasonb wrote: »

So, let me ask the question a different way. Considering that some of the Bible is now 'ignored' or considered irrelevant in this day and age ( working on the Sabbath etc. ), then how do the Catholic Church decide what's a sin and what isn't, assuming of course that it's not mentioned in the 10 Commandments. I have a vague recollection of 'new sins' being announced several years ago ( something like terrorism etc. ), who decides that? Is it the Pope, as God's representative on earth?

Again it's the Magisterium who decide. The Church teaches that its teaching authority did not die with the apostles but that is exists to this day in the Pope and the Magisterium. The Scriptural basis includes the following verses:

John 10:16 He that heareth you, heareth me; and he that despiseth you, despiseth me; and he that despiseth me, despiseth him that sent me.

John 16:13 But when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will teach you all truth.

Matthew 28:18 And Jesus coming, spoke to them, saying: All power is given to me in heaven and in earth. 19 Going therefore, teach ye all nations; baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son,
and of the Holy Ghost.

Matthew 16:19 And I will give to thee [Peter] the keys of the kingdom of heaven. And whatsoever thou shalt bind upon earth, it shall be bound also in heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt loose upon earth, it shall be loosed also in heaven.

Matthew 18:18 Amen I say to you [Apostles], whatsoever you shall bind upon earth, shall be bound also in heaven; and whatsoever you shall loose upon earth, shall be loosed also in heaven.

The last 2 quotes are quite remarkable. i.e the the Church decides that something is sinful or not, God will agree to this decision. But this is on the basis that the Church is guided in its teachings by the Holy Spirit.

jasonb wrote: »

And if that's how it works, when was this decided about Homosexuality? Or is it a position that's been held over many centuries and doesn't have a 'came into law at this time, due to this declaration' associated with it? Does that make sense?

Homosexual acts have always been taught sinful by the Church. See these quotes from the Early Fathers

I suppose the definitive teaching on homosexuality is contained in the Catechism:

Chastity and homosexuality

2357 Homosexuality refers to relations between men or between women who experience an exclusive or predominant sexual attraction toward persons of the same sex. It has taken a great variety of forms through the centuries and in different cultures. Its psychological genesis remains largely unexplained. Basing itself on Sacred Scripture, which presents homosexual acts as acts of grave depravity,140 tradition has always declared that "homosexual acts are intrinsically disordered."141 They are contrary to the natural law. They close the sexual act to the gift of life. They do not proceed from a genuine affective and sexual complementarity. Under no circumstances can they be approved.

2358 The number of men and women who have deep-seated homosexual tendencies is not negligible. This inclination, which is objectively disordered, constitutes for most of them a trial. They must be accepted with respect, compassion, and sensitivity. Every sign of unjust discrimination in their regard should be avoided. These persons are called to fulfill God's will in their lives and, if they are Christians, to unite to the sacrifice of the Lord's Cross the difficulties they may encounter from their condition.

2359 Homosexual persons are called to chastity. By the virtues of self-mastery that teach them inner freedom, at times by the support of disinterested friendship, by prayer and sacramental grace, they can and should gradually and resolutely approach Christian perfection.

-140 Cf. Gen 191-29; Rom 124-27; 1 Cor 6:10; 1 Tim 1:10.
-141 CDF, Persona humana 8.

jasonb

Thanks a lot for the reply Kelly1, it's very informative, nice to get a good description and an idea of how these things work!

J.

wolfsbane

jasonb wrote: »

Hi there,

Before I get onto the topic of this post, I just want to clarify that I'm not trolling here, I'm not looking an argument or trying to upset anyone. I am genuinely curious about this.

A few days ago I was watching an old episode of West Wing, which I'd seen before. It's the one where a Radio Talk Show Host has quoted Leviticus, saying Homosexuality is an abomination. The President uses what I consider is a well known argument, also pointing out that the Bible say you can be put to death for working on the Sabbath etc. etc.

Anyhow, this time it got me thinking. I am open to correction here, but as far as I understand, the current stance of the Catholic Church ( I'm going with the Church I am most familiar with ) is that Homosexuality is wrong. I am assuming ( perhaps also incorrectly ) that this isn't just based on text from the Bible, as the above argument shows that other text from the Bible isn't considered 'law' as such.

So, I guess my question is this, when or how was it 'declared' by the Catholic Church that Homosexuality is wrong. I know I'm probably coming from a simplistic point of view, but was it something decided by a Pope, is there an official Decree on a certain date etc? It's one of those things I've assumed I just know ( i.e. the Catholic Church considers homosexuality wrong ) but I never really questioned it.

As said at the beginning, I'm not trying to cause hassle here, and I don't want a discussion on whether homosexuality IS right or wrong. All I'd like is an explanation ( not a defence or attack! ) of the Catholic Church's position. Thanks!

J.

I'm not a Catholic, but let me point out that the OT texts are not the main argument an Evangelical like myself classifies homosexuality as sin. They play a part, but the main texts are the NT ones, especially the Romans 1 mention.

No honest commentator can deny that the NT is just as clear on homosexuality as the OT. That some do is just proof of their dishonesty/self delusion. One may as well try to use the NT to de-classify murder as a sin.

An honest commentator would acknowledge the text condemned homosexuality, but try to defend the practice on the grounds of culture or evolution of understanding or something like that. But one cannot hold the Bible to be God's truth and treat it like that.