bikes on foothpaths

mjquinno

question about the rules more than anything


I was walking this morning on a foothpath. the road was very busy. cars were crawling. I was walking with my friend beside each other and a woman was on her bike on the foothpath in front of me and looked at me like i was a mass murder, I then realised she wanted me to move out of her way as she was coming against me. I informed her that bikes were meant to be on the road and not on the foothpath she muttered something about cars and kept cycling. Who was right? Do cyclists have the right to be up on the foothpath? maybe I was wrong!

kenmc

you were right.
right so, glad we got that one sorted.

mjquinno

thanks for that. so bikes are meant to stay in traffic even if it is really heavy?

ROK ON

mjquinno wrote: »

thanks for that. so bikes are meant to stay in traffic even if it is really heavy?

Footpath are for pedestrians. Bike are meant to be cycled on the road (except MTB's obviously).
The cyclist was in the wrong, and in future you should inform them of this.
When I was in college, I was cautioned by a Garda for cycling on the path. It was circa 3am on a winters morning, and I was heading back from a mates house. Decided to cycle on path for my safety. Garda car pulled me over. Had to go to station following day, where I was cautioned.

Raam

The unfortunate situation is that many "cycle tracks" are actually on the footpath. Cyclists are required to use cycle tracks where present. You can see the conflict

20goto10

Cyclist was in the the wrong BUT speaking from experience of having many near misses with wreckless drivers I will always cycle on the footpath whenever I feel it is necessary for my safety. Of course pedestrian safety comes first so the right thing for the lady to do would have been to hop down onto the road to pass by you and then hop back up on the path.

Having a word with the cyclist is pointless unless they are being wreckless (speeding by you or whatever). We know we're in the wrong but at the end of the day if its doing no harm whats the problem. In your case all you had to do was briefly step aside to let her by. Being stubborn and not moving just because you are in the right achieves nothing.

blorg

ROK ON wrote: »

Footpath are for pedestrians. Bike are meant to be cycled on the road (except MTB's obviously).

Note of course this does not mean that MTBs are allowed on the footpath

kenmc

Then you need to learn to cycle more assertively on the road. What's the harm? It's painting all cyclists with the same dirty brush, including those of us who obey the ROTR, that's the problem.

DirkVoodoo

You were right, cyclist was wrong. It is annoying when you come up against heavy traffic and have no where to go but not much you can do unless you are confident enough about weaving through slow moving traffic.

Raam

Unless you are a kid, stay off the footpath when cycling. On my morning commute along the Clontarf track, it rejoins the road at St. Annes. The amount of people who don't bother to go on to the road and choose to cycle down the path is quite large.

mjquinno

I

20goto10 wrote: »

Cyclist was in the the wrong BUT speaking from experience of having many near misses with wreckless drivers I will always cycle on the footpath whenever I feel it is necessary for my safety. Of course pedestrian safety comes first so the right thing for the lady to do would have been to hop down onto the road to pass by you and then hop back up on the path.

Having a word with the cyclist is pointless unless they are being wreckless (speeding by you or whatever). We know we're in the wrong but at the end of the day if its doing no harm whats the problem. In your case all you had to do was briefly step aside to let her by. Being stubborn and not moving just because you are in the right achieves nothing.

Ya i was probably being stubborn but it seems to happen quite a lot, that bikes use the foothpath and expect people to move out of the way. (on that stretch anyways) I can see why they do it - traffic is busy - prob lack of coffee on my part i wasnt rude to her i just said it and i think she knew she was in the wrong.

20goto10

kenmc wrote: »

Then you need to learn to cycle more assertively on the road. What's the harm? It's painting all cyclists with the same dirty brush, including those of us who obey the ROTR, that's the problem.

How exactly can you be assertive up against a ton of metal travelling at 60+kph? I'll take my chances breaking the law thanks very much - in situations I feel it is necessary.

mjquinno

well i could say for arguments sake that someone on a bike doing 15/20km could do damage to a pedestrian on the footpath.

kenmc

20goto10 wrote: »

How exactly can you be assertive up against a ton of metal travelling at 60+kph? I'll take my chances breaking the law thanks very much - in situations I feel it is necessary.

this might help

mjquinno wrote: »

well i could say for arguments sake that someone on a bike doing 15/20km could do damage to a pedestrian on the footpath.

They need to walk more assertively so
No but you're right. Bikes can do a lot of damage to peds.

Gavin

20goto10 wrote: »

How exactly can you be assertive up against a ton of metal travelling at 60+kph? I'll take my chances breaking the law thanks very much - in situations I feel it is necessary.

Where do you cycle ? I haven't encountered any roads, which have footpaths beside them, that can't be cycled on.

You are traffic and you are allowed to cycle on the road. If you're a bit nervous of cycling in heavy traffic, have a look at the book, Cyclecraft.

It's quite doable to cycle amongst heavy traffic in a safe manner and without holding cars up any more than a few minutes.

edit - Ken beat me to it

seamus

20goto10 wrote: »

How exactly can you be assertive up against a ton of metal travelling at 60+kph? I'll take my chances breaking the law thanks very much - in situations I feel it is necessary.

Surprisingly, that tonne of metal isn't an automaton on autopilot. Yes, you have to treat everyone like they're morons, but exactly as it's possible to drive a car assertively, it's possible to cycle assertively.

There's a massive difference between being assertive and being aggressive. The latter will usually get you smushed, sooner or later. The former won't.

Raam

20goto10 wrote: »

How exactly can you be assertive up against a ton of metal travelling at 60+kph? I'll take my chances breaking the law thanks very much - in situations I feel it is necessary.

In all seriousness, you should consider your road positioning. This is a huge factor as to how other vehicles treat you and negotiate passing you. Of course, you will always come up against idiots, and there you are somewhat left to pot luck.

20goto10

Verb wrote: »

Where do you cycle ? I haven't encountered any roads, which have footpaths beside them, that can't be cycled on.

You are traffic and you are allowed to cycle on the road. If you're a bit nervous of cycling in heavy traffic, have a look at the book, Cyclecraft.

It's quite doable to cycle amongst heavy traffic in a safe manner and without holding cars up any more than a few minutes.

edit - Ken beat me to it

Thanks I might check it out but to be honest it's due to peoples driving and not my cycling. Of course I'd say that but it happens to be true .

As it happens I rarely cycle anymore due to change of work location. But when I did it was a very regular occurance on a particular stretch of road where cars and vans were turning into an industrial estate. The road had a cycle path but for some reason the cars and vans seem to think they have the right of way. And as is the case when someone thinks they are in the right they also think its ok to just mill you down. I've come very close to being hit a couple of times, one being really really close. The opposite side of the road has a footpath (no cycle path funnily enough!) and no entrances. I've had no problem with pedestrians but then its quite a big path and I would usually steer out onto the grass verge when passing them. It's not just there though. I'll quite happily hop up onto the path if I felt it necessary and until we have a decent, well planned out cycle path system I'm sorry but I think I'll continue to do so.

Raam

20goto10 wrote: »

I'll quite happily hop up onto the path if I felt it necessary and until we have a decent, well planned out cycle path system I'm sorry but I think I'll continue to do so.

I would urge you not to. You will be waiting a long time for a decent well planned out cycle path system. Have a read of the recommended book. It will give you the freedom associated with confident cycling.

20goto10

seamus wrote: »

Surprisingly, that tonne of metal isn't an automaton on autopilot. Yes, you have to treat everyone like they're morons, but exactly as it's possible to drive a car assertively, it's possible to cycle assertively.

There's a massive difference between being assertive and being aggressive. The latter will usually get you smushed, sooner or later. The former won't.

Its a very risky game to be assertive against a moron in a car on Irsih roads. There are a lot of bad attitides on Irish roads. As I've said people will quite happily knock you down if they feel they are in the right when it could be just as easy, in fact easier, to just avoid an accident or god fobid killing someone.

But thanks to all for the advice. Maybe the book will change my mind.

Raam

Cycling on the footpath will do nothing but retain the status quo. The only way motorists attitudes to cyclists will change is by more people cycling and using the road when they do. Sure there will be incidents and mishaps, but at least you can say you are a pioneer! At least that's what I say to myself every morning.

Gavin

This is a fairly active cycling forum, there are a lot of posters and the majority cycle safely on the roads every day.

Sure there are some accidents but most are not serious. I go through the city center most days (what people perceive as dangerous), and have never come off the bike. I actually find the majority of drivers to be perfectly fine, they let me out when I indicate, give me space and are careful. Realistically, there are very, very few people who would try to knock down a cyclist because they believed they were in the right.

Some close calls, but keeping aware, cycling intelligently and reasonably assertively keeps one safe.

You should grab a copy of the book and try it out, if only to try to prove us wrong !

Turbulent Bill

20goto10 wrote: »

Its a very risky game to be assertive against a moron in a car on Irsih roads. There are a lot of bad attitides on Irish roads. As I've said people will quite happily knock you down if they feel they are in the right when it could be just as easy, in fact easier, to just avoid an accident or god fobid killing someone.

But thanks to all for the advice. Maybe the book will change my mind.

You actually get much less hastle from morons when you cycle assertively, simply because you cut down their chances of doing something stupid. A prime example is cycling in the centre of the lane at junctions/roundabouts to avoid people turning across you, or positioning yourself to block dangerous overtaking. Most drivers recognise that you're riding intelligently rather than just trying to hold them up.

'Cyclecraft' is an excellent book, I'd recommend it to anyone.

nomadic

Well there's no point being a d1ckhead in this situation. If there was someone walking towards you , one of you would move aside to let them through so why not the same with a bike .
That is of course once the bike is moving slowly. Bikes on a path are grand once the cyclist always gives the pedestrian right of way.

rflynnr

Verb wrote: »

I actually find the majority of drivers to be perfectly fine, they let me out when I indicate, give me space and are careful.

Actually in defence of (some) motorists, I've twice in the last three days had the experience of indicating right, moving to the right of the road to make a turn and instead of having to wait for oncoming traffic to pass, have been waved through by oncoming cars. I.e. exemplary road manners from motorists. I like to think it's because I've demonstrated a willingness to abide by the ROTR but maybe it's the more positive side of the Christmas spirit.

Edit: Actually, come to think of it, there was that bloke this morning on the Malahide Road as well, so that's three similar instances since Monday.

rubadub

I have cycled on the footpath in full view of a ban garda twice this week. She did nothing, and I should hope not, the reason I did it was since she instructed cars in the bus lane to illegally park on the cycletrack at whites cross. Today I thought the car driver was going to knock me, pulled right up close to the footpath.

Going from stillorgan to sandyford I also used to sometimes cycle on the footpath up the steep hill, this road is now widened, back then i would have buses and suvs going dangerously close to me. I would not cycle when lots of pedestrians are on it. Again the gardai saw me numerous times and did nothing, they realise the law is not there for that purpose, and have common sense, thank god.

Sometimes there were just 1 or 2 pedestrians on the hill, and I would stop completely, lean the bike over and wait for them to pass, I was going very slow anyway, they were not in fear of me zooming by. I certainly would not be doing what the woman the OP came across did.

When cycling up this steep hill I posed less threat on the path cycling than walking on the path with the bike alongside me. I do this on grafton street too, AGAIN gardai have seen me and said nothing, because they see me cycling at a walking pace, in full control. They DO stop couriers bombing along grafton street. If I walked with the bike, although legal, it is far more likely to catch somebodys leg with the pedal. The gardai are there for the public good, and thankfully know when & how to enforce the laws. It is the pedantic bitter assholes who get upset (not directed at the OP, I might do the same, but if it was obviosuly dangerous on the road and she was at a suitable speed I would stand aside). If somebody was out jogging or walking fast carrying an object similar to a bike I would just view them the same TBH.

BostonB

Verb wrote: »

Where do you cycle ? I haven't encountered any roads, which have footpaths beside them, that can't be cycled on....

Where theres a mandatory cycle lane on the footpath?

I'm not perfect, theres one stretch of my route, where its very narrow the road surface is dire, and its uphill for a few mins so I'm crawling. The pavement is smooth and almost never anyone on it, as its country lane/road. I've been known to duck on to the path and have a breather. I hop off, if I see a pedestrian. I accept its wrong, but I'm not in danger of running into anyone. Thats more likely to happen on the cycle path, in town when someone steps out unexpectedly.

On the way down this hill theres no pavement, so its easier to take up a car width and stay in the queue of the cars. But then I'm usually keeping pace with the cars on the way down.

I usually go through the Park and theres a lot of pedestrians /runners on the cycle lanes. But most people just make space for each other and theres no problem. Otherwise you'd be arguing with everyone you meet.

Húrin

mjquinno wrote: »

thanks for that. so bikes are meant to stay in traffic even if it is really heavy?

Yes. Cars have to stay in traffic when it's heavy too. Either that, or dismount and walk the bike along the path if that's faster. Otherwise I recommend cycling in the oncoming lane, if almost nobody's driving in it.

Raam wrote: »

Unless you are a kid, stay off the footpath when cycling. On my morning commute along the Clontarf track, it rejoins the road at St. Annes. The amount of people who don't bother to go on to the road and choose to cycle down the path is quite large.

Madness, considering how thin that pavement is.

20goto10 wrote: »

How exactly can you be assertive up against a ton of metal travelling at 60+kph?

Because it's a ton of metal being driven by a human who will not just smash into your back wheel if you are cycling directly in front of them.

As others have said, cycle assertively and take a place in the car lane if it's getting tight. Do not hug the kerb in such places as this encourages drivers to squeeze you, or to overtake dangerously.

20goto10 wrote: »

As I've said people will quite happily knock you down if they feel they are in the right

That is quite simply not true. Irish drivers do not have a special psycho gene.