Got quote today from architect!

pipsqueak

Hi, we got a price today from an engineering/architect group today in the midlands, it was for the house design (3800sq foot),builders spec drawings, epa test, site layout plans, percolation test, submititng it to co co. and they will do the signing off for certs etc up to completion.
Fair enough.The price we got was 8232 euro thats with vat.
Can anyone tell me is this a fair price bearing in mind house is a self build and will cost prob 275 to 300k to build.

any help welcome!

sydthebeat

thats a price of around €6800

if its just broken up into €4800 for planning
and €2000 for sigining off..

it then looks slightly high...

but if you are getting a construction plan from him it looks ok....

i do not know what you mean by 'builders spec' plan...???
id be wary of any engineer/architect that will let the builder spec the work!

pipsqueak

By builder spec pans it is on paragragh 2 of the quote " Post planning stage(Tender process and construction)
Architectural/Engineering construction drawings 2000 euro
Certification 1000 euro

On the first para it said design of house 1500and planning application was 1500 (which i thought was a little high)

Do you think there is any scope for getting him down a little?
Thanks for input btw!

smashey

pipsqueak wrote: »

Do you think there is any scope for getting him down a little?
Thanks for input btw!

Thats between you and your architect. He seems to have broken the price down so you see what you're getting.

One thing you should remember - if you don't ask, you don't get.

RKQ

I can't say if it dear or not as its sort of "How long is a piece of string!"
How long will it take to design a bespoke 3800sqft house - how many changes will you make?

EPA test circa €750 plus vat. Maps €65, planning fee €65, newspaper notice circa €45 etc. Site levels €350 + vat.

Another way of looking at it is you will build a house starting at €323,000-00 yet you query a fee of €8000. Its a small percentage for total peace of mind - design, planning, tender and supervision.

Make sure you fully understand what is agreed for each stage of work - design, planning, tender and supervision, certification.

IMO Three useful things - Shop around, negiotate where possible and retain by reputation.

pipsqueak

Thanks smashey, He who dares !!

pipsqueak

RKQ wrote: »

I can't say if it dear or not as its sort of "How long is a piece of string!"
How long will it take to design a bespoke 3800sqft house - how many changes will you make?

EPA test circa €750 plus vat. Maps €65, planning fee €65, newspaper notice circa €45 etc. Site levels €350 + vat.

Another way of looking at it is you will build a house starting at €323,000-00 yet you query a fee of €8000. Its a small percentage for total peace of mind - design, planning, tender and supervision.

Make sure you fully understand what is agreed for each stage of work - design, planning, tender and supervision, certification.

IMO Three useful things - Shop around, negiotate where possible and
retain by reputation.

I suppose if you look at like that its true what price do you put on peace of mind, was looking at R.I.A.I site before and they say prices vary from 9 % up to 18% of total budget, so 8 grand off 300000 euro is what percenatge? Good bit less i suppose

Carlow52

pipsqueak wrote: »

Hi, we got a price today from an engineering/architect group today in the midlands, it was for the house design (3800sq foot),builders spec drawings, epa test, site layout plans, percolation test, submititng it to co co. and they will do the signing off for certs etc up to completion.
Fair enough.The price we got was 8232 euro thats with vat.
Can anyone tell me is this a fair price bearing in mind house is a self build and will cost prob 275 to 300k to build.

any help welcome!

what is not clear here to me is who is writing the detailed materials and construction methods spec.
By focussing on the 8k without knowing EXACTLY what materials and methods are to be used which as a self build will be from you, u could very easily be penny wise, pound foolish.
At 3800 sq feet for 300k, there is not much margin for error here

kkelliher

RKQ wrote: »

Another way of looking at it is you will build a house starting at €323,000-00 yet you query a fee of €8000. Its a small percentage for total peace of mind - design, planning, tender and supervision.[/SIZE][/B]

Now thats not a given in general with any profession especially on one off housing where the project is not always one of the most important to a practice

pipsqueak

Just quick update, got genuine quote this morninng from a registered architect in the county who will do the exact thing for 1700 euro!!!. so ill think ill go with with him! 8 grand ffs!

sydthebeat

pipsqueak wrote: »

Just quick update, got genuine quote this morninng from a registered architect in the county who will do the exact thing for 1700 euro!!!. so ill think ill go with with him! 8 grand ffs!

:eek:

planning
tender
construction
certification


for €1700.... i doubt it...

pipsqueak

sydthebeat wrote: »

:eek:

planning
tender
construction
certification


for €1700.... i doubt it...

can i pm you? i would like to paste the quote and your mans name and address.

sinnerboy

pipsqueak wrote: »

Just quick update, got genuine quote this morninng from a registered architect in the county who will do the exact thing for 1700 euro!!!. so ill think ill go with with him! 8 grand ffs!

Sound's too good to be true - check references - with builders and clients first

Get this wrong and it will infect the whole project - like dodgy pig feed .... :pac::pac::pac::pac:

pipsqueak

we rang the council and spoke with a planner and he said this guy is 100%. has submitted loads of succesful applications in last 2 years, so we are goin with him

archtech

seems very low for a full service , I wonder should it have been 17,000 which work out at about 5.6%., which would still be fair.

pipsqueak

archtech wrote: »

seems very low for a full service , I wonder should it have been 17,000 which work out at about 5.6%., which would still be fair.

Sorry , quote does not include signing off certificates, thats 2k extra, so all in including vat 4000 euro, still half what i got from other crowd!

muffler

pipsqueak wrote: »

Sorry , quote does not include signing off certificates, thats 2k extra, so all in including vat 4000 euro, still half what i got from other crowd!

Probably not far off the mark.

This whole area of costs/fees is always debatable as it does vary from one part of the country to the other and then it also varies depending on who you have retained ie. architect/engineer/technician.

pipsqueak

I suppose it does, we are delighted though and meeting him sat morn!

No6

Just because you charge the highest fee dosnt necessarily mean you are the best and vica versa, Pip I'm glad you checked your prospecitve Architects record if only more people would do that, I am frequently under cut by people who can barely draw and when the planners look at the file they laugh at the standard of work submitted, so if the price is right and the reputation is good go for it!!

pipsqueak

cheers man

dpjobrien

I doubt if this price includes what the original architect priced for.

I.e. a detailed spec for the house, to be sent out to 4-5 building contractors to price and return with an evaluation of each to assist you in deciding who to go with. I take it that the last architect is just going to send out a set of plans to builders for you and let you decide which is best to go with.

Savings in the short term does not mean saving in the long term.

RKQ

I agree with Muffler and No. 6. above. Check out the Technician / Engineer / Architects past work record and reputation!

A clever Cowboy can simply charge the most if he wants people to believe he's the best - fee is no guarentee of quality or ability.

Retain by reputation.

Criss Cross

Hi all,

At the beginning stages of building. Site has full planning, percolation etc, but we wish to change the house design completely. Got a quote from an architect to design, submit planning, oversee build (full four steps outlined in RIAI document) for €14,000 excluding VAT and expenses. Expenses will be planning pack and mileage for site visits, which shouldn't exceed €700.
Hoping to build something around the 2,500 sq ft mark and budgeting €250,000 (excluding site price) to complete.

Do people think this is a reasonable fee? I've seen some of this guy's work and he has a good reputation. I have no reason not to go with him, except I think the fee is a little high in the current climate.

I'd appreciate any thoughts. I'm based in the West.

Poor Uncle Tom

Criss Cross wrote: »

2,500 sq ft mark and budgeting €250,000 (excluding site price) to complete.

I would consider about €9,000 to €11,000 to be about the mark, but then if you want this specific person to do your work, you'll pay what they ask, the main question here is do you think it is a good price?

Criss Cross

Thanks Poor Uncle Tom!

I think the price is a little on the high side, however I don't have much to compare to. I've had a couple of other architects give quotes, but they've offered very different services at very different prices.

The VAT and expenses are the items that are pushing this a tad too high for me. I know the architect only incurs both and doesn't benefit, but that won't matter to my cheque book!

No6

If you want this Architect to design etc your bespoke house and this quote if for a full service then its quite a good quote, you could get lower if you shop around. If you go the non RIAI route with a reduced service you could get it for about a third of the price in some areas of the west. It all depends on what you want, how much you want to put into the project time and effort as much as money and what result you want

JuniorB

Here are the costs that we've paid for a bespoke 3000sq ft gaff in the midlands...

Design + Planning etc 4500
Electronic Survey 1000
EPA Prec Tests 700
Building Drawings / Full Tender Process to award 3500
Sign off / site visits etc 2000

Total 11,700 + VAT 21% (2457) = €14,157

Again it's how long is a piece of string. We have a very tricky site and our man has an indept knowledge of the local planning system, guidelines etc and designed the house accordingly.
The design of the house took over a year and involved over 20 meetings and gazillions of phone calls and re-drafts etc.
We got planning staight off on first application.

With regards to the tender process - where we are now - I would hope that his expertise/experience will save at least the 4k ish when we are negotiating with the preferred builder(s).

archtech

Criss Cross wrote: »

Hi all,

At the beginning stages of building. Site has full planning, percolation etc, but we wish to change the house design completely. Got a quote from an architect to design, submit planning, oversee build (full four steps outlined in RIAI document) for €14,000 excluding VAT and expenses. Expenses will be planning pack and mileage for site visits, which shouldn't exceed €700.
Hoping to build something around the 2,500 sq ft mark and budgeting €250,000 (excluding site price) to complete.

Do people think this is a reasonable fee? I've seen some of this guy's work and he has a good reputation. I have no reason not to go with him, except I think the fee is a little high in the current climate.

I'd appreciate any thoughts. I'm based in the West.

its not a bad price if the architect delivers what you want within the constraints of the site/budget etc.

dpjobrien

It depends on what your looking for in the re-design, if you don't want to go with an architect try a chartered building surveyor. They do a very similar type of work to an architect, only difference is that an architect might give you a different design.

Personally speaking, this is what I feel you should be charged.

Re-design & submission - €2-3000
Expenses - Planning Pack -€50
- Newspaper Adv - €50-100 max
- 6 copies of plans for pricing - €150
Stage inspections 4 No @ €300 + Vat per inspection - €1200 + vat @21.5% (to facilitate draw down of the mortgage)

It really depends on your builder and how competent they are as to the number of inspections you require. There maybe some hidden costs such as site levels, structural design calculations etc.

The fact that planning has already been granted cuts out alot of work as its only a change of house type and local needs, if applicable, that you can be refused on now.

Poor Uncle Tom

dpjobrien wrote: »

The fact that planning has already been granted cuts out alot of work as its only a change of house type and local needs, if applicable, that you can be refused on now.

It doesn't cut out very much work at all, unless it's the same agent applying for the second planning. All works will need to be done, survey of the site, levels, calcs, EPA testing, if necessary, in fact it will be a brand new planning application all over again. Unless you double up your last agent with the current architect.

archtech

dpjobrien wrote: »

It depends on what your looking for in the re-design, if you don't want to go with an architect try a chartered building surveyor. They do a very similar type of work to an architect, only difference is that an architect might give you a different design.

Personally speaking, this is what I feel you should be charged.

Re-design & submission - €2-3000
Expenses - Planning Pack -€50
- Newspaper Adv - €50-100 max
- 6 copies of plans for pricing - €150
Stage inspections 4 No @ €300 + Vat per inspection - €1200 + vat @21.5% (to facilitate draw down of the mortgage)

It really depends on your builder and how competent they are as to the number of inspections you require. There maybe some hidden costs such as site levels, structural design calculations etc.

The fact that planning has already been granted cuts out alot of work as its only a change of house type and local needs, if applicable, that you can be refused on now.

No price there for tender documentation: specifications, working drawings BER etc nor site visits other than those for valuations.

I would agree with Poor Uncle Tom, the fact that planning permission was granted on the site doesn't cut down the work load significantly, you still need to include/obtain all the information for the project. Depending on the site , the dwelling may now be positioned where previously it was proposed to provide the percolation area, rendering the previous site suitability test useless.

parka

dpjobrien wrote: »

It depends on what your looking for in the re-design, if you don't want to go with an architect try a chartered building surveyor. They do a very similar type of work to an architect, only difference is that an architect might give you a different design.

I would change the word "different" very misleading

pseudo-tech

dpjobrien wrote: »

It depends on what your looking for in the re-design, if you don't want to go with an architect try a chartered building surveyor. They do a very similar type of work to an architect, only difference is that an architect might give you a different design.

That statement is certainly incorrect and misleading!

muffler

dpjobrien wrote: »

It depends on what your looking for in the re-design, if you don't want to go with an architect try a chartered building surveyor. They do a very similar type of work to an architect, only difference is that an architect might give you a different design.

I assume you know little or nothing about design/planning/architecture based on that comment.

That statement belongs on a different planet.

DBK100

This discussion is fascinating.

There seems to be a lot of misunderstanding about what architects / Engineers / Surveyors / technicians actually do.
I would have thought that with the proliferation of TV programmes and magazines out there that people would be more aware of the differences.

Most of the commentators seem to place 'design' very low on the agenda (again surprising due to media coverage). 'Design' does not refer to just 'style', but every aspect of a project.

There are good, bad and indifferent Architects out there, and the better Engineers will probably provide better designs than the less competent Architects, but generally, people are not comparing like with like services.
The same applies to builders: If you don't give them a detailed specification, the cheapest guy's 'perception' of what you are after will be vastly different to the perception of the builders tendering higher. Hence the seemingly attractive price difference.

If design is not a high priority, don't go with an Architect, as they will be quoting you for something you don't need.
If design is important to you then do talk to an Architect. Their 'perception' of the service you want will probably initally be different to yours (i.e. much more involved and detailed). Discuss with them exactly what is you want from them. You will often find them very much prepared to talior a service to you and your requirements: Cost and Design?
Most of them will happily provide free initial consultations, so steer clear of any offering 'fixed fee' initial home consultations.

Radiotower

From all reports Architects are losing jobs left, right and centre so you should be able to get a better price of them. Get quotes and breakdowns from a number of them to compare like with like.

I wouldn't be mad about having to pay expenses - surely he'll know where the site is and how far from his office it is and how many times he'll do a site visit (or send a technican out) and cover himself in his price.

Hope you find a suitable one... I have a fear when I go to build my own house the architect will turn out like Dermot Bannon (Room to Improve).. He wrecks my head, if I'm building a house and I want to change something I'll change it - I'm the one going to be living in it... He always seems so smug when he gets his way over the client!

icbarros

Radiotower wrote: »

I have a fear when I go to build my own house the architect will turn out like Dermot Bannon (Room to Improve).. He wrecks my head, if I'm building a house and I want to change something I'll change it - I'm the one going to be living in it... He always seems so smug when he gets his way over the client!

Well, the clients seem to be always happy with his decisions at the end.
I'm afraid that in Architecture the client is not always right.
:rolleyes:

parka

Radiotower wrote: »

From all reports Architects are losing jobs left, right and centre so you should be able to get a better price of them. Get quotes and breakdowns from a number of them to compare like with like.

Sadly the cost of living isn't going down.

http://www.bdonline.co.uk/story.asp?sectioncode=426&storycode=3142817&channel=426&c=1

Radiotower wrote: »

Hope you find a suitable one... I have a fear when I go to build my own house the architect will turn out like Dermot Bannon (Room to Improve).. He wrecks my head, if I'm building a house and I want to change something I'll change it - I'm the one going to be living in it... He always seems so smug when he gets his way over the client!

That's T.V. for you

JuniorB

Sadly the cost of living isn't going down.

In my opinion this statement is not true.

sydthebeat

icbarros wrote: »

Well, the clients seem to be always happy with his decisions at the end.
I'm afraid that in Architecture the client is not always right.
:rolleyes:

an architect that is not able to show clients the errors in their request is a bad architect...

unfortunately there are many out there who appear aloof and snobbish because they are unable to communicate their attempt to match a clients request with their architectural concept.

you always hear of the good news story, never the bad....

Poor Uncle Tom

sydthebeat wrote: »

an architect that is not able to show clients the errors in their request is a bad architect...

unfortunately there are many out there who appear aloof and snobbish because they are unable to communicate their attempt to match a clients request with their architectural concept.

you always hear of the good news story, never the bad....

I find a compromise is always the best option, once it doesn't confuse or dilute the initial concept, and it keeps all parties sweet...happy days....:)

icbarros

sydthebeat wrote: »

an architect that is not able to show clients the errors in their request is a bad architect....

Don't forget these "errors" are many times dreams of a life. And architects are not Gods.

unfortunately there are many out there who appear aloof and snobbish because they are unable to communicate their attempt to match a clients request with their architectural concept.

you always hear of the good news story, never the bad....

Nobody is perfect. There are good and bad professionals in every trade. It's good that the good stories stand out from the bad ones.

sydthebeat

icbarros wrote: »

Don't forget these "errors" are many times dreams of a life. And architects are not Gods.

they certainly are not.... but by errors i mean examples such as client swishing for first floor balconies or grecian columns in areas where these would not be allowed etc.... or other examples such as clients wanting living areas to the north etc... we all know examples such as this,,,....

icbarros wrote: »

Nobody is perfect. There are good and bad professionals in every trade. It's good that the good stories stand out from the bad ones.

agreed... its a pity though that the bad news stories arent made widespread as an educational tool...

icbarros wrote: »

Why not vote for some really good designs? It's the public choice for the 2009 Irish Architecture Awards. http://bit.ly/JFWyt

1. voting has expired
2. certainly are some bad design examples in that as well as good....

icbarros

1. voting has expired

Thanks for let me know. I have removed the link.

sydthebeat

icbarros wrote: »

Thanks for let me know. I have removed the link.

thanks...

BTW, i think the thomond park rejuvination was the winner... .due in no small part to the munster rugby fan club organised internet action....