Buses and disabled/elderly seats?

trishasaffron

I seldom use the bus but when I do one of the things that maddens me is the way people abuse these seats.

For example I usually get on the bus at the 10 terminus at Belfield. If I can I take a seat downstairs but not the disabled/elderly seats as I consider that these should be made available for those that might need them. Of course if all the other seats were taken I might sit there but would remain alert to stand if someone needed them.

But I am in the minority. Generally these are the 1st seats to be filled but by young, fit students who do not move or get up when later in the journey (maybe by Donnybrook) there are older people getting on and having to stand - I saw this today and almost every time I take this bus. I don't know that it's anything other than thoughtlessness on the part of the students (or maybe they can't read) but it drives me wild. Does anyone here take these seats seriously?

L1011

Me. And not that many others it seems!

I once had a women come over and compliment me for first getting out of the flipdown seat for someone with a pram and then a few stops later getting out of the front row (to stand, as no other seats on the bus are suitable for someone my height!) for an old lady. Apparently she'd never seen anyone else on a 41C do that.

the_syco

MYOB wrote: »

Apparently she'd never seen anyone else on a 41C do that.

I believe it. Lots of young scum on the 41c never get up for old people. I get up for old people, and the odd person with a pram, depending on their attitude.

ArmaniJeanss

Out of interest does anyone know is there an official 'priority' for the flip seat.

I know on Paris Metros they have a sign up saying that the priority is a) disabled war veterans, b) disabled persons c) elderly people d) people with children in buggy, e) pregnant women.

Asking cause I saw a person with a buggy sort of refusing to move for a person in a wheelchair a few weeks ago,(I'll say 'sort of' refusing as English didn't appear to be her first language and there may have been a communication breakdown) so wondering if the Dublin Bus/bus companies have an official priority?

DWCommuter

ArmaniJeanss wrote: »

Out of interest does anyone know is there an official 'priority' for the flip seat.

I know on Paris Metros they have a sign up saying that the priority is a) disabled war veterans, b) disabled persons c) elderly people d) people with children in buggy, e) pregnant women.

Asking cause I saw a person with a buggy sort of refusing to move for a person in a wheelchair a few weeks ago,(I'll say 'sort of' refusing as English didn't appear to be her first language and there may have been a communication breakdown) so wondering if the Dublin Bus/bus companies have an official priority?

For a start, pregnant women aren't actually featured in any promotion of special seating on state run public transport in Ireland. People with buggies are also neglected in nearly all of said promotion. So CIE are a total disaster area in terms of special needs seating. As for the attitude of people, well that only begins to change when a transport company implements a defined stratedgy and sticks to it. Sadly both are lacking in Ireland. IE's new "stickers" are poor, unclear and ill thought out. They look like a lazy approach to what was proposed by my colleagues (which was very good in fact.) at RUI about 2 years ago. Unfortunetly the attitude of the rude commuter seems to prevail in RUI aswell, because there were no takers. Thats probably why IE are easily let away with the simple things that appear small, but can make a huge difference.

L1011

From the signs, is the flip seat not Wheelchair users companion > minder of buggy > everyone else?

AlekSmart

Whoa there just a minute !!!

Lets get one thing clear from the outset.
If we are getting involved in the issue of "Prioritizing" any section of the community then it MUST be backed up by Legal Requirement.

Remember we are NOT Swiss,either by race or by inclination
The native Celt errs on the side of savagery and never more so than when involved in group commuting,either by land,sea or air.

This "caveman" instinct assures us of one thing.

If a certain Priority is afforded to any sector which may involve discommoding any other individual then that Priority WILL be challenged at the earliest opportunity.

The current position regarding the "Accessible" aspect of the Low Floor Bus (LFB) is,in typically Irish fashion clouded in uncertainty and ambiguity.

Up until late 2006 most Drivers were under the impression that the Equal Status Act 2000`s provisions regarding Disabled Access to Public Transport was backed up by the force of THAT leglislation and other associated bits and bobs which went to make up the greater "Disabled Access" package.

Then,in a rather low key manner word began to spread that the "Situation" was not as clear as we had supposed

It appears that the "Priority" afforded to a disabled person was challenged in a submission to the Equality Commissioner who after taking appropriate Legal advice came back to Bus Atha Cliath with some rather disconcerting advice.

Essentially it appears a Busdriver had taken a Person on with a laden buggy.

Subsequent to that a Wheelchair bound person arrived at the stop.

The Busdriver requested the Buggy person to remove the child and fold the buggy as the DESIGNATED Disabled space was now required by a DISABLED person.

For reasons as yet unclear,the Buggy person declined to fold and advised the Driver that she was on board first and that she was not obliged to fold.

It also appears that the Disabled person Insisted on their "Right" to utilize the "Disabled" space and a stand-off ensued which AFAIR ended up with the Buggy person being required to leave the bus in the rain etc etc under protest.

This incident may even have featured on a Liveline programme.

I am uncertain as to the exact events that ensued,but I do know that as a result of the Equality Authoritys subsequent deliberations a subtle policy alteration has been put in place.

Essentially a Driver in such a situation may REQUEST the Non-Disabled Passenger to fold and stow their buggy.

That able-bodied person may acceed to or decline the Drivers request and there ends the matter.

A Busdriver may NOT insist on or instruct that passenger to surrender the Disabled space to any DISABLED person who subsequently arrives.

Therefore it is First Come-First Served

Now,in typically Irish fashion this alteration was not exactly well flagged either internally or in the general media.
Oddly enough neither did the Equality Agency make much of this somewhat regressive situation.

In essence what we now have is a situation whereby a genuinely DISABLED wheelchair bound person now has NO actual priority at all.

If my interpretation of the situation is incorrect then I am most amenable to any of the movers and shakers in the Equal Status field correcting my errors

PS.If one wants to see how Policies such as this COULD and SHOULD be implemented in a no-nonsense clear and easily understood manner take a peep at the Lothian Buses methodology :

http://www.lothianbuses.com/Prams.php

Comments anybody ???

shltter

AlekSmart wrote: »

Whoa there just a minute !!!

Lets get one thing clear from the outset.
If we are getting involved in the issue of "Prioritizing" any section of the community then it MUST be backed up by Legal Requirement.

Remember we are NOT Swiss,either by race or by inclination
The native Celt errs on the side of savagery and never more so than when involved in group commuting,either by land,sea or air.

This "caveman" instinct assures us of one thing.

If a certain Priority is afforded to any sector which may involve discommoding any other individual then that Priority WILL be challenged at the earliest opportunity.

The current position regarding the "Accessible" aspect of the Low Floor Bus (LFB) is,in typically Irish fashion clouded in uncertainty and ambiguity.

Up until late 2006 most Drivers were under the impression that the Equal Status Act 2000`s provisions regarding Disabled Access to Public Transport was backed up by the force of THAT leglislation and other associated bits and bobs which went to make up the greater "Disabled Access" package.

Then,in a rather low key manner word began to spread that the "Situation" was not as clear as we had supposed

It appears that the "Priority" afforded to a disabled person was challenged in a submission to the Equality Commissioner who after taking appropriate Legal advice came back to Bus Atha Cliath with some rather disconcerting advice.

Essentially it appears a Busdriver had taken a Person on with a laden buggy.

Subsequent to that a Wheelchair bound person arrived at the stop.

The Busdriver requested the Buggy person to remove the child and fold the buggy as the DESIGNATED Disabled space was now required by a DISABLED person.

For reasons as yet unclear,the Buggy person declined to fold and advised the Driver that she was on board first and that she was not obliged to fold.

It also appears that the Disabled person Insisted on their "Right" to utilize the "Disabled" space and a stand-off ensued which AFAIR ended up with the Buggy person being required to leave the bus in the rain etc etc under protest.

This incident may even have featured on a Liveline programme.

I am uncertain as to the exact events that ensued,but I do know that as a result of the Equality Authoritys subsequent deliberations a subtle policy alteration has been put in place.

Essentially a Driver in such a situation may REQUEST the Non-Disabled Passenger to fold and stow their buggy.

That able-bodied person may acceed to or decline the Drivers request and there ends the matter.

A Busdriver may NOT insist on or instruct that passenger to surrender the Disabled space to any DISABLED person who subsequently arrives.

Therefore it is First Come-First Served

Now,in typically Irish fashion this alteration was not exactly well flagged either internally or in the general media.
Oddly enough neither did the Equality Agency make much of this somewhat regressive situation.

In essence what we now have is a situation whereby a genuinely DISABLED wheelchair bound person now has NO actual priority at all.

If my interpretation of the situation is incorrect then I am most amenable to any of the movers and shakers in the Equal Status field correcting my errors

PS.If one wants to see how Policies such as this COULD and SHOULD be implemented in a no-nonsense clear and easily understood manner take a peep at the Lothian Buses methodology :

http://www.lothianbuses.com/Prams.php

Comments anybody ???

Alek is as usual 100% correct

There is no enforceable priority

I raised this here at the time of the change but no one was particularly interested

I also raised it with local management and the reply was that the legislation was not clear cut as too what a disability was and that you could be forcing one "disabled" person off a bus or out of the priority seat and discriminating against them because their disablement was not as visible.
And that the company would be leaving itself open to cases being brought against it on the basis that it was discriminating against one disabled person in favor of another.
The legal view I was told was that a man or woman with a child in a buggy has a mobility impairment and as such is technically disabled and has as much right to disability priority as any other disabled person wheelchair bound or not.
So the most DB can do is politely ask if they are willing or able to move if the answer is no then sorry to the wheelchair user you will have wait.

MiniD

You would hope in these situations that common sense and a bit of maturity would take over and people would show some kindness to other passengers, but it's not to be. I was on a 123 one day. It was overcrowded as usual and a lady with a buggy refused to fold it for a wheelchair user in James' Hospital. The bus was held up for ages with the driver claiming it was a wheelchair space. The lady insisted she was right to sit with her child in her pram. Eventually, another 123 came behind and took the wheelchair passenger. I feel for bus drivers who are faced with these dramas every day.

Taken from the Dublin Bus timetable, I wonder who will win in this example...

AlekSmart

Common Sense...Maturity...what is this stuff MiniDriver speaks of ?

This is Ireland (Republic of) a place where nothing is ever allowed to be simple or clear.

The interesting aspect for me is attempting to fathom how Lothian Buses management can devise,construct and issue a form of crystal clear wording of its policy and issue it to both customers and staff alike.

Equally important is the base EU leglislation which introduced the Low-Floor Easy Access concept into the Bus market is the exact same as what we are using.

Why oh why can somebody not for once in Ireland take a simple issue and implement it without this endless convoluted navel gazing which essentially makes a laugh of Disabled Accessibility rights as a principle ! :mad:

Beano

MYOB wrote: »

From the signs, is the flip seat not Wheelchair users companion > minder of buggy > everyone else?

why would the companion of a wheelchair user have priority over any other able-bodied person?

bazzer

Beano wrote: »

why would the companion of a wheelchair user have priority over any other able-bodied person?

Because the wheelchair user may be a child or someone who needs a carer to assist them.

Zoney

It's not about a lack of common sense. It is about the authorities wishing to take as little responsibility as possible.

dowlingm

once upon a time, we didn't need signs. If I was a 10 year old kit travelling with my parents, I'd be told to stand up if an old person had no seat. Fat chance of that happening these days.

Some friends of mine also complain they don't get a seat when pregnant, but the only one they'll get it from it is their fellow women as men live in dread of the tongue lashing they'd get for offering a "pregnant" woman their seat only to be told no baby was due!

L1011

Beano wrote: »

why would the companion of a wheelchair user have priority over any other able-bodied person?

Because they're companioning someone in a wheelchair, maybe.... I've also seen the flip seat used somehow to secure a wheelchair from moving before.

cbreeze

;been using buses to work lately because train is usually full - got injury and can't stand easily. If I have to change to another bus which is full I find that people will give me a seat - goodness of their hearts or worried that I'll topple over and crush them?!!!;);););)

I know I'll sound like an old wan, but I'm absolutely appalled at how nobody ever gives up their seats for elderly people, wheelchair users, etc. Got on a packed 16 the other day (standing room only), two elderly ladies got on after me and all the teenagers/college students sitting downstairs just looked at the floor. These two ladies were falling about all over the place, one had a walking stick. I was appalled. The next day I was standing downstairs on the 10, a group of students were sitting and standing in the disabled/priority space when a wheelchair user got on, these morons just continued sitting there and looked really put out when they had to be TOLD by the bus driver to move. It makes me ashamed to be young and Irish. Have people no manners?!

bazzer

College students seem to be getting thicker by the day. At the Belfield bus stop, they'll happily let a number 2, 3 and 10C (which all go to the city centre) fly past, jam their way onto a plain no.10 and all pile out at O'Connell Street.
You should hear the moans and tutting out of them when they realise that the No.10 has to turn onto Waterloo Road and two empty 46As and a 145 glide past on Leeson Street!

Thick. :rolleyes:

Moonbeam

Public transport is a nightmare in Dublin while pregnant. People generally do not offer you their seats but if you ask for one of the priority seats from someone young and able generally they are given to you.
No one has said no to be yet anyway.
What I have noticed is that the people that are nice are generally young married men,not sure why maybe their wives have been through it recently but they seem to be the only people that ever stand up.
Generally women are the worst by far.

AlekSmart

I think Bazzer unwittingly focuses a beam on one of the more fundemantally awful realities if modern Irish culture.

Why,after progressing through the first two levels of a supposedly first world educational system are so many of it`s graduates verging on disability when it comes to actually existing within that societies structures

For the past 16 years I have observed,initially with bemusment but latterly with a degree of fearful sadness,a distinct and largely unrecognized streak of unwillingness and/or inability to recognize and accept the strictures which any organized society requires if it is to function.

Another thread on here regarding an ejectment from the 56A bus route saw posters implying that the "Trinners" (sic) types just "knew" they were superior in every way to those neanderthal Busdrivers and their likes.

I am always open and receptive to those who are of a higher intellectual and intelligence capacity to myself.
That openness to utilize and learn from is I believe an essential part of the human capacity to co-exist and improve for the greater good.

However,that capacity to learn is a two way street and requires an ability to reverse-disseminate also....I`m afraid that is what appears missing from the scenario.

Sadly the "I`ve got 600,000 points in my Leaving,I`ve got my first choice in University...hey ! I`ve ARRIVED !!" attitude is not alone dominant but (with the aid of copious amounts of subsidized alcohol) aggressively so and nowhere more than on a Bus/Tram/Train servicing any of the groves of Irish Academe

I really do believe that it`s a serious problem which needs far more urgent research and not a little corrective training to address.

By the way,if anybody needs a theme tune to recognize it by....It`s "The fields of Athenry " :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad:

Beano

bazzer wrote: »

Because the wheelchair user may be a child or someone who needs a carer to assist them.

The question was why would the companion have priority over any other abled-bodied person assuming they are abled-bodied themselves. Cant that person stand next to the wheelchair user?

MYOB wrote: »

Because they're companioning someone in a wheelchair, maybe....

but that doesnt answer the question. Surely they're as capable of standing as any other able-bodied person?

Cookie_Monster

Beano wrote: »

but that doesnt answer the question. Surely they're as capable of standing as any other able-bodied person?

But they'll be tired from pushing around the wheelchair:pac:

L1011

Beano wrote: »

but that doesnt answer the question. Surely they're as capable of standing as any other able-bodied person?

I'm sure they are, but the entire arguments rather petty isn't it?

Demonique

DWCommuter wrote: »

For a start, pregnant women aren't actually featured in any promotion of special seating on state run public transport in Ireland. People with buggies are also neglected in nearly all of said promotion. So CIE are a total disaster area in terms of special needs seating.

Sorry for bumping an old thread, but pregnant women/people with buggies ARE NOT special needs.

Victor

Well, that depends, but certainly it can be a mobility impairment.

Demonique

A mobility impairment that they CHOSE to inflict on themselves

Victor

Demonique wrote: »

A mobility impairment that they CHOSE to inflict on themselves

Thats rather unfair. I presume you will want someone to look after you in your old age, so we need children now to do that.

Cookie_Monster

Victor wrote: »

Thats rather unfair. I presume you will want someone to look after you in your old age, so we need children now to do that.

not at all, haven't you seen "I, robot"?

the_syco

Demonique wrote: »

A mobility impairment that they CHOSE to inflict on themselves

Same for old people, people in wheelchairs, crutches, etc.

I'd still give most of them my seat, though.

LXFlyer

Demonique wrote: »

Sorry for bumping an old thread, but pregnant women/people with buggies ARE NOT special needs.

Demonique wrote: »

A mobility impairment that they CHOSE to inflict on themselves

Forget the terminology.

It is plain good manners to give up your seat to someone who needs it more than you do. I would class elderly people, pregnant women and those on crutches as being in that category over a fit able bodied person. Whether they inflicted their condition on themselves is in my view irrelevant and frankly is ridiculous in this situation.

There is a serious lack of thoughtfulness and good manners in people these days.