Playing standards degrading?

Kareir · 04-12-2008 8:43pm #1

Hey All,

I've only being playing bass for a comparably short time, but i've noticed something, which i guess may have spilled over to the other instruments.
It seems that many modern bands popular today seem to use the most basic bass lines. I assume this is the same for guitar/drums?
Honestly, so many modern songs are played the same way: pick, Drop D, E string only. It's like we've taken a massive step back, and interest in musical ability seems to have taken a back seat to how the bands are styled. Fall Out Boy are a prime example, and i would LOVE to see their bassist play something in front of me. I mean, i'm sure they're alright, but.. it all seems to have become simpler.
I'm not saying it's all so basic, but many modern, teenish songs are. It's a problem, as i'm almost 17, and they're all anyone wants to hear/play, rather than older but better (Better: Read "More interesting")music.
Am i right?

_Kar.

_Kar.

feylya · 04-12-2008 8:46pm

"Interesting" music doesn't sell. 3 chord trick songs have always been the highest selling. Blink 182 is a good example - Travis Barker is an extremely good drummer but his drumming in Blink 182 is basic because that's what people want to hear.

SoWatchaWant · 04-12-2008 11:34pm

I hear ya, buddy.

Well, might you be the person to change all this?:eek:

Rigsby · 05-12-2008 12:43pm

You have brought up some interesting points, most of what I agree with. A good bassist will only play bass lines that he thinks suits or enhances the song. A simple song requires simple bass lines. Playing busy, complex lines just for the sake of it, or to show off your prowess is not the way to go IMO.

Having said all that, I agree with you that a lot of today's modern music is ridiculously simple, but as feyla says, this is what people want to hear. There's a wealth of more interesting music to seek out and play. It's to your advantage that you are being discerning.

Doctor J · 06-12-2008 10:37am

Sometimes simple is better and it tends to suit a lot of the music doing the rounds at the moment. I'd rather see someone underplay than overplay. Not every bass line needs to be hard, sometimes just nailing the root with 8ths is the thing that really kicks the tune up the hole and it actually takes good disciplined playing to keep it locked down and simple. Bass is primarily a rhythm instrument, you lock in with the drums and everything else is built on that foundation, that where the song gets its groove and if the drums are playing it straight a complex bassline might be inappropriate. Play to suit the tune, not to impress any other bass players who might be in the crowd.

You've got to tie in with the drums first, if you don't you need to try guitar :P

-=al=- · 06-12-2008 3:23pm

u cant beat those classic funky classics basslines from the 70's

Stev_o · 06-12-2008 10:48pm

God damn over use of octaves have meant that many bands just rely on them to form a bland riff just the next chord progression i guess but it always gets on my nerves.

But anyway id echo whatever one else here is saying, most people who arent musicians or aren't that serious into the deeper sides of songs won notice and wont criticise a song like us musicians. I sort of envy in them in one way because its gotta to the stage where i can hardly enjoy any music without pointing out the flaws that it displays, it really narrows your enjoyment of music.

pug_ · 06-12-2008 11:26pm

Maybe it's just me but I've always thought that popular music was a pretty simplistic appeal to the masses type of affair going back decades. In my view if most people were asked to think of a decade they would probably be able to pick out maybe a couple of dozen bands that they thought were truly great which leaves the majority of music completely forgotten.

Rigsby · 07-12-2008 12:52pm

-=al=- wrote: »

u cant beat those classic funky classics basslines from the 70's

+1.

OP : Do a search on You Tube for James Jamerson, a brilliant bassist, and enjoy his amazing and original lines.

nyarlothothep · 08-12-2008 8:20pm

Totally, but there is still a place for complex music. I know they aren't amazing technically accomplished musicians, but Radiohead are hugely popular and write songs above the usual simplistic drivel, for example in unusual time sigs, experimenting with loops, effects etc.

Opeth, Tool, Trivium, Dragonforce, The Mars Volta, RCHP, these bands are bearing the torch for music with some technical ability and have formidable sales. Yeah bands like Coldplay are a joke, but they mostly appeal to those people who aren't that into music. There are a lot of them but there are a lot of people who are into music.

The problem imo is just an ideological shift which started in the late 70s, journalists always harping on about the golden era of punk bands and indie. A lot of promoted bands now seem to have the same influences over and over again, mostly indie sacred cows from the 80s. So its continually put out there through the media that indie is good, you like indie etc. as with britpop. And then record labels like Sony just want to sign these bands. I don't know why hard rock or metal isn't given the same focus, maybe because its more provocative, its not the musical equivalent of chocolate box art so it scares people.

Careful for what one wishes for, but I almost think that the era of Steps/Westlife/DJs was better for this fact alone, everyone knew it was sh1t cheesy music. The problem now is imo we have the same sh1t music except now its praised by the critics and appears either in the guise of indie, singer songwriter stuff or crappy female singers like Amy Winehouse and Duffy. This is far more dubious.

Kareir · 08-12-2008 9:44pm

I do know of James Jamerson, he's very good :P

I think the problem is that people tend to now prefer the classic Three Chord trick, or the same riff over and over and over, because they can follow the beat, and it sounds pretty dramatic (or it can)
I actually find myself now noticing bits in some songs that sound like they need.. more. whether a guitar solo part, or a drum or bass fill.. but it's still missing something.

_Kar

Rigsby · 08-12-2008 9:57pm

Kareir wrote: »

I do know of James Jamerson, he's very good :P
I actually find myself now noticing bits in some songs that sound like they need.. more. whether a guitar solo part, or a drum or bass fill.. but it's still missing something.

_Kar

If you think certain music is missing something, then look for more interesting music. James Jamerson and his music never lacked anything.

ham_n_mustard · 09-12-2008 12:09am

if you're a bass player and want something out of the 3 chord ordinary...listen to primus. some nice simple basslines there for you to learn

Doctor J · 09-12-2008 9:23am

nyarlothothep wrote: »

Opeth, Tool, Trivium, Dragonforce, The Mars Volta, RCHP, these bands are bearing the torch for music with some technical ability and have formidable sales. Yeah bands like Coldplay are a joke,

Nah man, Dragonforce are a joke, musical cold piss with no substance at all, Coldplay just fill a gap for the big mid-tempo balladeering which a lot of people actually like. They do what they do in the same way Tool do what they do, just trying to arrive at different points, that's all. Being complicated doesn't mean music is automatically good or clever.

nyarlothothep wrote: »

indie is good, you like indie etc. as with britpop.

In fairness, and I say this as a Metal fan for over 20 years, I'd rather listen to Johnny Marr or Bernard Butler play guitar over the schmoes from Dragonfarce or the through-the-motions monotony of Trivium any day.

nyarlothothep wrote: »

crappy female singers like Amy Winehouse and Duffy. This is far more dubious.

The only dubious thing is your judgement. Winehouse is a ****ing amazing singer by any standard. Whether you like the music or not, that woman has one of the finest singing voices for that style of music I've ever heard. You're not listening with your ears, but rather this looks like some reaction to popular media coverage of modern popular music. Just because the British media picks some band and hypes the **** out of them, as they tend to do far too often, it doesn't necessarily invalidate the quality of that band or artist. The best thing you'll ever do is learn to appreciate different styles of music. In the same way you don't eat exactly the same thing for dinner every day, a bit of variety in your listening will enhance your life incredibly.

Even simple music

nyarlothothep · 09-12-2008 11:56am

Doctor J wrote: »

Nah man, Dragonforce are a joke, musical cold piss with no substance at all, Coldplay just fill a gap for the big mid-tempo balladeering which a lot of people actually like. They do what they do in the same way Tool do what they do, just trying to arrive at different points, that's all. Being complicated doesn't mean music is automatically good or clever.

In fairness, and I say this as a Metal fan for over 20 years, I'd rather listen to Johnny Marr or Bernard Butler play guitar over the schmoes from Dragonfarce or the through-the-motions monotony of Trivium any day.

The only dubious thing is your judgement. Winehouse is a ****ing amazing singer by any standard. Whether you like the music or not, that woman has one of the finest singing voices for that style of music I've ever heard. You're not listening with your ears, but rather this looks like some reaction to popular media coverage of modern popular music. Just because the British media picks some band and hypes the **** out of them, as they tend to do far too often, it doesn't necessarily invalidate the quality of that band or artist. The best thing you'll ever do is learn to appreciate different styles of music. In the same way you don't eat exactly the same thing for dinner every day, a bit of variety in your listening will enhance your life incredibly.

Even simple music

I mentioned Dragonforce as (despite fcking up live) they actually insert musicianship into their music, which is what the OP was talking about. Anyway I like their deliberate cheesiness and sense of fun, but thats just me.

Yeah granted Winehouse is a good musician, but I hate her singing style and music, I find her lyrics infantile and whether the press likes it or not is irrelevant. I listened, I absorbed and it sucked ass. I have a broad taste in music, I like Suede, regardless of the NME hyping them, I like Coldplays first album, which imo is different from anything they've produced after album 2. etc. I actually dislike Tool and am not too fond of Trivium but again pointed them out as contrasts to the one note guitar soloing of many indie bands which are doubtless in the dominant position these days. That said I do have an extreme preference for complexity not just in music but in everything, art, animation, films etc. Simplicity generally bores me which is why I'm mostly indifferent to genres like punk. There tends to be a lack of complexity these days in popular music which the OP rightly pointed out.

Doctor J · 09-12-2008 12:23pm

There tends to be a lack of complexity these days in popular music

Popular music has always been rather simplistic, I don't think there's anything new about that. Again, why is that such a bad thing? What is wrong with a simple melody?

Here's one for you, check out Cynic, then check out Aeon Spoke, same musicians, very different approach to songs. Which is better or more vaild?

nyarlothothep · 09-12-2008 1:01pm

Doctor J wrote: »

Popular music has always been rather simplistic, I don't think there's anything new about that. Again, why is that such a bad thing? What is wrong with a simple melody?

Here's one for you, check out Cynic, then check out Aeon Spoke, same musicians, very different approach to songs. Which is better or more vaild?

will do, I don't think its a bad thing at all, I even like some Clash songs like Train in Vain and early Beatles stuff. You're right, most pop music has always been simple but in the 70s I think there was an acceptance for more ambitious music in the mainstream whereas now a lot of it is written off as self indulgent or a revival of Yes who have become a synonym for crap if most music journos are anything to go by.

Doctor J · 09-12-2008 1:03pm

The 70's was also the era of disco, don't forget

Ah look man, ignore what music journalists, it's just a load of people trying to say something different about the same thing so they keep their jobs and doing their best to keep themselves relevant. Yes, there was a technical music growth in the 70's, but it followed a popular musical and technical growth in the 60's, which followed a technical musical explosion called rock 'n' roll in the 50's. In the 80's technical rock was adapted by a lot of Metal bands and this continued into the 90's. Now ****head journalists are coming up with bollocks like "math rock" to describe something which doesn't adhere to 4/4. It's all bull**** and there was always a popular culture of disposable ditties running parallel to even the wildest musical explorations.

And Thu Jazz was there before all of it and Thu Jazz will still be there when it's all gone

the fnj · 09-12-2008 1:17pm

Rating the quality of music by technical proficiency and musical complexity is effectively reducing music to sport. It’s a super safe way of judging music because everything can be argued down to comparable statistics. This is not how art should be assessed, ever.

Technique is important but only as a means to an end and this is something a lot of musicians forget. Personally I always find technique focused players to be the most boring. Give be Cobain and his three power chord wonders over anything Dragon Force play.

Rigsby · 09-12-2008 4:52pm

the fnj wrote: »

Rating the quality of music by technical proficiency and musical complexity is effectively reducing music to sport. It’s a super safe way of judging music because everything can be argued down to comparable statistics. This is not how art should be assessed, ever.

Technique is important but only as a means to an end and this is something a lot of musicians forget. Personally I always find technique focused players to be the most boring. Give be Cobain and his three power chord wonders over anything Dragon Force play.

I agree completely about technique and when it should/should not be used. From the point of view of just listening, I find a lot of todays music (U2 for example ) utterly boring. I'm not sure why, but I suspect it is because there is not much substance to it. On the other hand, the early Beatles stuff was fairly simple and I still find that interesting. Maybe it's what you grow up with.

Dord · 09-12-2008 5:02pm

Rigsby wrote: »

I agree completely about technique and when it should/should not be used. From the point of view of just listening, I find a lot of todays music (U2 for example ) utterly boring. I'm not sure why, but I suspect it is because there is not much substance to it. On the other hand, the early Beatles stuff was fairly simple and I still find that interesting. Maybe it's what you grow up with.

Hmm... well I didn't grow up with the Beatles but they were some of the first songs I learned on guitar. So I do enjoy them, but I agree in saying that a lot of modern pop/rock is uninspiring and boring. I think it just doesn't have any feeling to it, very lifeless and lacks substance.

Rigsby · 09-12-2008 6:26pm

Dord wrote: »

Hmm... well I didn't grow up with the Beatles but they were some of the first songs I learned on guitar. So I do enjoy them

Yes, you are right, people of all ages seem to like the Beatles music, so I suppose that knocks the age theory on the head. There is certainly much more substance to their early three chord songs than a lot of today's.

Kareir · 10-12-2008 10:21pm

I wasn't suggesting that a simple melody is bad - far from it. I really enjoy playing a simple bassline, that has a few bits that just enhance the song.
But so many current bands seem to just go Root -> 5th -> 3rd over and over again.. It could be better :P
Also, it seems there's a lack of improvisation currently.. if you look at many of the "great" guitarists, they have parts of a solo made up, but really they make it up on the spot, and it means they can play to the mood of the crowd. But many modern bands seem to avoid this, if they do it at all.
Actually, on the live perspective, sound quality seems to be awful, especially in the RDS. I was coerced into seeing Fall Out Boy there, and, really.. it's the singer faintly over distorted, mangled nothingness. You might FEEL the bass drum sometimes, but that's it. I saw Queen (or half of them ) there years ago, and while their sound was slightly distorted, it was good.
Not all modern bands are that bad, though, it seems, as mentioned in above posts. Some i've not listened to, so i will have to do so. Currently, i'm listening to Fightstar, as i like their bassist. He adds these little runs on the higher strings at just the right moment in some songs, which is what should be normal. But hey, it's good to hear.

_Kar.

Switcharoo · 12-12-2008 8:18am

http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=Z1IuD6F3R5I

nyarlothothep · 12-12-2008 8:49pm

that bass isn't slap, its spank. I love the cheesy classical musical section, totally out of context, need more of this in contemporary music.

-=al=- · 13-12-2008 11:33am

i watched a little fot hat mama mia film last night, the basslines in that were amazin.. back then the bands were let off the leash a lot more, it was much better

CianRyan · 13-12-2008 3:37pm

Kareir wrote: »

Hey All,

I've only being playing bass for a comparably short time, but i've noticed something, which i guess may have spilled over to the other instruments.
It seems that many modern bands popular today seem to use the most basic bass lines. I assume this is the same for guitar/drums?
Honestly, so many modern songs are played the same way: pick, Drop D, E string only. It's like we've taken a massive step back, and interest in musical ability seems to have taken a back seat to how the bands are styled. Fall Out Boy are a prime example, and i would LOVE to see their bassist play something in front of me. I mean, i'm sure they're alright, but.. it all seems to have become simpler.
I'm not saying it's all so basic, but many modern, teenish songs are. It's a problem, as i'm almost 17, and they're all anyone wants to hear/play, rather than older but better (Better: Read "More interesting")music.
Am i right?

_Kar.

_Kar.

Here's something to play along to.