Our Politicians

fathersymes

Why is it that our politicians cannot speak publicly without reading notes, when they do speak they intersperse every second word with "Ehh", "Emm".

Will someone please tell Minster O'Keeffe that million is not pronounced milin.

Perhaps I will answer my own question by stating that largely these are uneducated people who should not be running a country as they have no training beyond shaking hands at every rural funeral.

When one watches the House of Commons the UK representatives are lightyears ahead in their ability to speak publically and they actually have a vocabulary.

dresden8

British Ministers learn their brief.

In Ireland, Minister is a part-time job. The main job is still constituency work. And planning applications.

Permabear

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mikemac

Back when I was a college bum and getting up at lunchtime I'd often watch Prime Minister's Question time

And see Tony Blair and William Hague rips shreds out of each other. Twas entertaining and impressive at the same time. Any random MP could ask some obscure question like about government support for some city project and the Prime Minister could stand up and talk away on the subject with little reference to notes.
In fact, just about all the MP's could stand up on live TV and deliver their speechs well with no notes.

Yes, they were briefed but the standard of the debate was far higher then you'd see in the Dáil. What happens in the Dáil is supposed to be serious business and not there to entertain us but it's pretty unimpressive to the person watching Oireachtas (sp?) report

mikemac

fathersymes wrote: »

Perhaps I will answer my own question by stating that largely these are uneducated people who should not be running a country as they have no training beyond shaking hands at every rural funeral.

Eh, my last post was against TD's but how can you say they are educated when many are teachers, solicitors, barristers or other professions?
In my experience, the best public speakers I've met were barristers, sure Michael McDowell was an example of this.
Sure I've read many a thread in this forum giving out about TDs who don't give up their permanent teaching posts.
If a teacher is uneducated, what hope have we?

I've also seen people giving out about TDs who study courses like political science as it's their mission to get elected and therefore are not doing it for the right reasons.
There are many TDs who are fools, I wouldn't say they are uneducated though

Should the minister for Education be a teacher? The minister for Finance an economist? What's your opinion OP?

P. Breathnach

Don't blame the TDs.

Blame the people who voted them in.

fathersymes

micmclo wrote: »

Eh, my last post was against TD's but how can you say they are educated when many are teachers, solicitors, barristers or other professions?

When I state they are uneducated, I am referring to their lack of holistic education and not their attainment of college degrees which does not necessarily encapsulate these individuals aesthetic, moral and emotional development.

As a previous poster stated, the UK MP's are briefed. So are ours but their lack of mental development results in faltering and waffling, they simply aren't equiped with the educational tools to communicate and express themselves in a coherent manner. Those that do, such as Peter Sutherland have long since move on.

Recently Mary O'Rourke was asked about her nephew Brian Lenehen TD, who is educationally on a different level to many of his peers. She was very fervent in stating that he's just an ordinary fellow with no notions!

Now I don't want an ordinary fellow managing our country, but Mary understands that her constituents want the normal Joe soap they can relate to, in power. I certainly don't.

fathersymes

micmclo wrote: »

If a teacher is uneducated, what hope have we?

Exactly, we have none, would you want your kids being taught by Batt O'Keeffe, Million is pronounced Milin. I wonder can he spell it or maybe he has a speech impediment.

O'Keeffe is a lecturer in UCC

RiverWilde

fathersymes wrote: »

She was very fervent in stating that he's just an ordinary fellow with no notions!

Now I don't want an ordinary fellow managing our country, but Mary understands that her constituents want the normal Joe soap they can relate to, in power. I certainly don't.

The impression I get of politics in Ireland and society in general is that if you express yourself coherently and have definite views on anything, you're demonised. Sheep bleating out of time perhaps?

Phototoxin

Yes, I get that impression too. Being well spoken in school makes you some sort of freak. Using words like 'rather' gets you slated to bits

simu

fathersymes wrote: »

Exactly, we have none, would you want your kids being taught by Batt O'Keeffe, Million is pronounced Milin. I wonder can he spell it or maybe he has a speech impediment.

O'Keeffe is a lecturer in UCC

No - he was a lecturer in CIT! Not quite the same thing.

I agree that many of our TDs are not well spoken but a person can be well spoken whilst having a "culchie" accent. Would you rather everyone in the country adopt Dortspeak?

Anyways, our leaders' lack of oratory skills is the least of our problems these days.

jmayo

fathersymes wrote: »

When I state they are uneducated, I am referring to their lack of holistic education and not their attainment of college degrees which does not necessarily encapsulate these individuals aesthetic, moral and emotional development.

As a previous poster stated, the UK MP's are briefed. So are ours but their lack of mental development results in faltering and waffling, they simply aren't equiped with the educational tools to communicate and express themselves in a coherent manner. Those that do, such as Peter Sutherland have long since move on.

Recently Mary O'Rourke was asked about her nephew Brian Lenehen TD, who is educationally on a different level to many of his peers. She was very fervent in stating that he's just an ordinary fellow with no notions!

Now I don't want an ordinary fellow managing our country, but Mary understands that her constituents want the normal Joe soap they can relate to, in power. I certainly don't.

So you want our politicans to be people that sound good, do not hemmm or haww or amm, basically are good orators and can make a speech without reference to notes ?

You see I don't really care if they "am" or" haw" in their sentences, if what they are saying is truthful, honest amd actually is telling us something.
Of course it would be a plus if they could pseak clearly but when they are spouting sh*** does it matter ?

It's doesn't matter if they sound like a Kerryman with a lisp or an Eton public school Oxford multi degreed don, if what they are saying is bullsh**.
It just may sound better but that really doesn't help.

I don't want academics running things, they can remain in their dream worlds in colleges and "talk the talk", I want people that can actually "walk the walk" and deliver real things in the real world.

Some of the best business brains in this and other countries did not finish secondary school never mind university education.
They did not take courses in elocution, but they damm well know what they are doing.

What have we got as our political leaders, a large bunch of people that fell into politics usually inheriting their seats, who left jobs working in the public sector where business acumen and cop on appear to be sorely lacking.

Permabear

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bigstar

there are a qiute few irish politicians who publicly wish to appear more 'folksy' to appeal to the public. this is patronising to the irish people and also questions their leadership. do you really want politicians that are afraid to show their intellect for fear of appearing out of touch. their actions or ideas, not accents define them as politicians. but maybe when your actions are not so laudable your accent must at least match your ideas

jmayo

donegalfella wrote: »

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As I also mentioned in my post, it would of course be a plus if they could string a few sentences together without some ahh, ehhhs and the usual fumblings.
But what is happening now is we are getting business speak which is full of jargon. Yey it means nothing.

It doesn't matter if it was delivered by a shakespearan actor or Jackie Healy Rae, becuase it is meaningless cr**.
Of course one would be more coherent and delivered better, but it is stil sh*** for the ears and needlessly fills airtime.

All we have had is ...
"the fundamentals are sound", "bringing finality", "going forward", "joined up thinking", "Manage Expectations", "at the end of the day" (or was that Roy of the Rovers), "thinking outside the box" and a few more.

I don't know if you have a problem with this but #i find it irrating in the extreme ?
I agree sometimes people, and not alone in our country but acorss the pond as well, would rather listen to and more readily believe someone that sounds like themselves as opposed to someone that sounds like a very educated master of English language.

As regards orators in the Dail, Michael D Higgins would probably be the only one that comes to mind.
Before him you had the likes of John Kelly, James Dillion and that's about it.

Like or loathe him and his believes Joe Higgins had a good turn of phrase and is missed for his contributions.
Remember his classic line
"asking the taoiseach questions is like playing handball against a haystack, there is dull thud and nothing comes back".

Permabear

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drkool

Country is in recetion we just got a neianderthal budget poor people push to the edge. Lads to be honest do we need a precident who's getting about 230,000EURO p.a with stat paid house, car,food,servants first class Traveling wow.I think prime minister, other ministers,TD's and rest of the polititions can do with out precident post.I also think cutting down the entitlement most of the govenment high ranking bodies want harm any one unlike our education and the helth. Education and helth has to be prioritize.It's time to reconsider how many polititions we really need. I feel sorry for our famers and little businessmen and women give them some thing anything to stand up,we should cut our food imports so Irish famers can produce the rest.main consumer products like vegetables and poultry price has to cut down. Lads must find a alternative energy resource like wind solor or any green enery resource. Need to remove Old cars from the streets.how meny foreign non EU's living here about million they pay tex,PRSI on top of that 150euro for GNIB card and 100euro for visa.Hay that's our mony for one more wind turbine or sola power or even for eduction or helth. Sorry for been so radical this is just my openian(Love Ireland not Politions they eat you slowly or kill you at once)

The_Minister

fathersymes wrote: »

Why is it that our politicians cannot speak publicly without reading notes,

I've seen Mary Herney speak for 40 minutes straight without notes.

It's a rare talent, that very few people have, most people need notes of some kind.

The Raven.

fathersymes wrote: »

Why is it that our politicians cannot speak publicly without reading notes, when they do speak they intersperse every second word with "Ehh", "Emm".

It’s not only peculiar to our politicians. Some others get away with it and are even described as ‘great orators’ ! They also come unstuck when their teleprompter breaks down.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ThEAO0lt4Dw&feature=related

Seriously though, I do agree that a lot of Irish politicians definitely need elocution lessons. I don’t think they realize how badly they come across, especially to audiences and viewers outside Ireland.

When one watches the House of Commons the UK representatives are lightyears ahead in their ability to speak publically and they actually have a vocabulary.

I totally agree. They are mostly very polished and articulate.

jmayo

The_Minister wrote: »

I've seen Mary Herney speak for 40 minutes straight without notes.

It's a rare talent, that very few people have, most people need notes of some kind.

Let me guess she wasn't talking about the HSE
She probably can't speak for one minute on it, since it has nothing to do with her, go talk to Mr Drumm eh :rolleyes:

gandalf

The_Minister wrote: »

I've seen Mary Herney speak for 40 minutes straight without notes.

Was she ordering dinner perchance?

jmayo

gandalf wrote: »

Was she ordering dinner perchance?

Boom, boom

gandalf

I'm sorry I couldn't resist it

oscarBravo

Maybe try harder next time...?

Cannibal Ox

fathersymes wrote:

Why is it that our politicians cannot speak publicly without reading notes

You try it :P I know it's there job, and yes, technically, they should be able to do it but it is very difficult to speak convincingly about something you're not an expert on in public. Notes make it a little easier to be convincing.

fathersymes wrote:

when they do speak they intersperse every second word with "Ehh", "Emm".

It's (as far as I'm aware) a peculiarly Irish turn of phrase. A *lot* of Irish people intersperse their sentences with "ehh" or "emm". It isn't so common outside of Ireland, which probably explains why British politicians aren't so fond of using it.

On the other hand, if you wanted to be cynical, you could just say they're stalling. Saying "ehh" gives you an extra second or two to think up a reply to a question.

ejmaztec

Eloquence isn't necessary when slitting open brown envelopes.

AlekSmart

Whilst on the subject of Ms Harney,Haircuts,Health and public speaking,I have often wondered why the lady only once ever threatened to withdraw from Government.

Incredibly enough the issue was`nt Health....No siree Jimbob it was Public Transport or more specifically Buses in Dublin.

Is there a compelling reason for such dedication to PD Public Transport principles whilst there were/are people actually DYING unnecessarily within HER Health system.

The womans priorities have never been satisfactorily answered IMO.;)

mike65

There have been a few Alan Dukes and the late John Kelly spring to mind while the "Shanarrd" has some like Shane Ross but its true that the average public rep would much sooner be seen as cute/folksy/unthreatening than in possession of a sharp intellect or even speak in a forthright fashion (I suspect the later would sound to "foreign" in the minds of many).

mountainyman

jmayo wrote: »

Some of the best business brains in this and other countries did not finish secondary school never mind university education.
They did not take courses in elocution, but they damm well know what they are doing.

People like you are a big part of the reason why this country is banjaxed. If some greedy sleveen makes himself a few million even though he left school when he was twelve you venerate him. Making money is a skill but not necessarily one that translates into anything else.

The cult of the entrepreneur has destroyed this country. Wealth is created collectively and teachers are much more important than businessman in enriching a country.

jmayo

mountainyman wrote: »

People like you are a big part of the reason why this country is banjaxed. If some greedy sleveen makes himself a few million even though he left school when he was twelve you venerate him. Making money is a skill but not necessarily one that translates into anything else.

The cult of the entrepreneur has destroyed this country. Wealth is created collectively and teachers are much more important than businessman in enriching a country.

You are mighty good at jumping to conclusions and making presumptions about me and others.
Did I say I venerate somebody that leaves school at 12, some sleveen who makes a lot of money ?
Please tell me where I state that ?

My point was a third level education does not necessarily mean one has more cop on and more accumen for the real world. Education helps but you may have all the qualififcations in the world and yet might not be able to work in, nevermind be successful in the real world.
What the country needs is political leaders who have real life cop on and ability and not a bunch of former public servants (be they teachers, union officials, or road university professors), lawyers, doctors or other sheltered professionals.

You need smart business minded people if you want to run sucessful operations that don't just wander aimlessly wasting money like some public sector bodies.
Fás would be good example where there was no one overseeing the spending and the enterprise was blowing money left right and centre.

Another good illustration is putting Drumm in charge of the HSE.
He might be a fine doctor, but does he know anything about running a large organisation and trying to make decisions on streamling a massive out of control organisation?

So you say think wealth is created collectively, entrepreneurs are evil and destroyed this country :rolleyes:

Teachers are more important than businessmen ?
Yes they do have an important role in shaping childrens outlook, in teaching the next generation and in imparting knowledge, but do they actaully create the businesses that provides employment and that brings in foreign revenue through exports which adds to the revenues of the country ?
In this country there appears to be a mindset that teachers along with nurses are some holy untouchables and thus can demand high salaries and very plum working conditions i.e. holidays.
Yes some work very hard, but from experience there are many who couldn't give a s***.

You need entrepeneurs, and I don't mean builders or developers here.
I mean the likes of the guys that found and/or run sustainable sucessful industries (Sean Quinn, Tony Ryan, Michael O'Leary, Denis Brosnan, Pádraig Ó’Céidigh, Martin Naughton, Pat McDonagh, Eugene and Brendan Murtagh etc) that bring employment and prosperity to numeorous people.

PS there are good and bad entrepreneurs, just like there are good and bad teachers.
Here I will jump to a conclusion and say you must be a teacher :rolleyes:

limklad

P. Breathnach wrote: »

Don't blame the TDs.

Blame the people who voted them in.

No, It is the quality of candidates (who want to be Politicians) on the list that we are asked to vote on. It is very difficult to pick the best of a bad bunch.

EamonnKeane

limklad wrote: »

No, It is the quality of candidates (who want to be Politicians) on the list that we are asked to vote on. It is very difficult to pick the best of a bad bunch.

And very easy to form your own political group.

trentf

who cares how they speak? its what they do that matters and if i was them the least of my concerns at the moment would be how i speak....

RiverWilde

trentf wrote: »

who cares how they speak? its what they do that matters and if i was them the least of my concerns at the moment would be how i speak....

Yes, you're correct to a certain degree.

However, when we get stories of govt. ineptitude and corruption filtering through the media on an almost daily basis. Fumbling, incoherent mumblings in the Dail and in interviews outside the chamber, a prime minister who looks more like a cattle dealer than the leader of the govt.
It does not inspire confidence.

Riv

luckat

Political oratory is a matter of fashion.

And the people of the Dáil are the ultimate Irish fashion victims. Since Bertie Ahern's style involved modest um-soaked waffling, that became the mode du jour. If Eamon Gilmore became Taoiseach, then clear, blunt, incisive speaking would be the new mode.

The 18th-century speakers praised by (I think it was) Donegalman in some nicely-written posts had a classical education, so they learned to speak with the crisp phrasing of the Greeks and Romans.

Burke, by the way, was so dull in his speaking manner that the House emptied when he spoke. It was only when people read his speeches that they were inflamed.

His education was in the same school as Napper Tandy, the Quaker boarding school in Ballitore, Co Kildare.

I wouldn't personally be leaping to praise Grattan, whose government was notoriously corrupt and viciously sectarian.

A side note: there was a speech teacher on the radio the other day who cured a company's staff of em-ing. He passed out water pistols, and anyone who heard someone saying "em" or "uhh" while on the phone had permission to soak the em-er. It might add colour and vigour to the Dáil debates if this practice were followed.

The comment about Mary Harney ordering dinner: shame on you (heh). The comment about her leaving government over Dublin's buses - now there's an idea: put her in charge of Dublin's transport. If she can't make the city run efficiently, at least we'll end the obesity problem because people will have to walk to work.

Red Alert

Brian Cowen's style has definitely brought down the tone and language in politics since he came in. Even take the gaffe about the Consumer Agency - anytime you see a microphone you should assume it's connected to something! He regularly blusters and blows about issues such as Lisbon, where he roars and shouts but doesn't address the very concise issues presented to him. His manner better suits an argument in a pub after 20 pints rather than civilised political discourse.

bmaxi

The dynastic selection system of the poltical parties almost guarantees inept politicians and by default inept governments. I would agree, what one has to say is more important than how one says it but even more important is that one knows what one is talking about.:)

Carawaystick

I always thought Jim Kemmy spoke well whenever I heard him - I used to liken his speeches to a recitation - not that they were rehearsed but the delivery flowed with a kind of poetic rhythm.

I saw Joe Jacob elected at a count after a week long recount and he gave a great speech, and held everyone in the audience, considerably different from what his junior ministry is known for - iodine tablets.