Tell me all about bujinkan

jim o doom

Hey all, Recently posted a similar thread about BJJ - I'm going to be posting similar threads for a while - I am a kenpo head & am looking for peoples real life experiences with their art; what the training is like (conditioning, physical side, stretching, techniques, how you learn it), real life application, and what you think of it in general! Any information is appreciated & the BJJ thread was quite enlightening.. So post on & tell me all about it

pearsquasher

You can check out the FAQ I wrote for my website. Any more questions after that are probably best answered at the dojo through watching a class and then, if it appeals to you, attending classes for a probationary period... this period is both for your and mine satisfaction of interest levels.

These steps would indicate to me that you had more than a passing interest and therefore I'd be more interested in answering questions about training.
I could waffle all day about by 20 years in the Bujinkan... but only as I got to know the person asking.

terry_s

pearsquasher wrote: »

You can check out the FAQ I wrote for my website.

could you post a link ?

TKD SC

Hi Jim,

A bit like you, I was looking for something to go along with my tkd. Therefore about 3 summers ago, I went to a load of different MA clubs in dublin to try things out, ranging from tai chi to sanda to bjj to bujinkan etc etc...

Anyway, I did a 10 week intro course with Bujinkan in Rathmines at the time. I think I met Pearsquasher down there, and he's very nice guy so you should try to get to his class and chat to him. I think these threads are useful for you to find out info on a class (hence I thought I'd post a comment myself on bujinkan), but as you probably know, you really need to physically go and try out a class to see if it's for you. I'd also recommend you trying classes out sooner than later and don't see a need for you to wait until your 1st Dan (although you prob won't have time for anything else in the months coming up to Dan grading but for now...)

Anyway, I did enjoy my 10 classes. But, bear in mind, it was only 10 classes so...
I found it wasn't for me (sorry Pearsquasher!), as I much prefer something with a sparring element. The backward and fwd rolls etc were good to learn. But, I didn't like some of the stances and way of punching. I didn't really want to learn more "stances" and a new way of punching! In the classes I did, after the rolls / breakfalls, you would usually then practise a technique / drill. One person would attack while the other would block / strike / trip / whatever. Some of these were good, but all a bit telegraphed, and reminded me a bit of aikido (looks great, but doubts to it really working! Sorry Maeve!).

There was no proper sparring with gloves on, so I'd really have doubts as to the techniques really working, or certainly the practioner being able to succesfully pull off the techniques more to the point, esp for example, if you were to throw a boxer or kickboxer in their midst.
Therefore, it is really a battlefield art, similar to japanese ju jutsu, good fun, something different, but don't like the lack of sparring and lack of that word "aliveness".

I'd still recommend you try out some classes - if you did some bjj classes and some bujinkan classes and then wrote what your experience of both were would be interesting...

pearsquasher

My Bujinkan FAQ link is at FAQ

I address the sparring issue in the "Is Bujinkan training competitive?" section. I should add that sparring is not done at the very beginning level as there's a ton of stuff to learn before "free", "alive" training.

There's also a progression towards "aliveness" (old concept new word!) in the Bujinkan that's related to the above issue but again it take a lot of work to get there.

This is all usually explained in person and it usually makes sense to people. "Crawling before you can walk" comes to mind. I did a LOT of sparring in my early days - standup, grappling - to know now that I needed a LOT more basics before it could become a usefull training tool.

mark.leonard

pearsquasher wrote: »

My Bujinkan FAQ link is at FAQ

I address the sparring issue in the "Is Bujinkan training competitive?" section. I should add that sparring is not done at the very beginning level as there's a ton of stuff to learn before "free", "alive" training.

There's also a progression towards "aliveness" (old concept new word!) in the Bujinkan that's related to the above issue but again it take a lot of work to get there.

This is all usually explained in person and it usually makes sense to people. "Crawling before you can walk" comes to mind. I did a LOT of sparring in my early days - standup, grappling - to know now that I needed a LOT more basics before it could become a usefull training tool.

Would someone who has done another art not be capable of sparring sooner rather than later?

pearsquasher

Would someone who has done another art not be capable of sparring sooner rather than later?

"Another" art?.. of course not. Sparring in Bujinkan != judo != karate != BJJ. In fact... Bujinkan isn't even a sparring art like these other diciplines so the focus on it different in when, how and why we spar. I'm only interested in explaining these in the dojo over a students natural training curve... just as I've learned it. It's a doing thing. I've seen manys a debate on these things and they come to nothing. If you're really interested you'll put the time in to find out on the mats. I think that's fair enough.

mark.leonard

pearsquasher wrote: »

"Another" art?.. of course not. Sparring in Bujinkan != judo != karate != BJJ. In fact... Bujinkan isn't even a sparring art like these other diciplines so the focus on it different in when, how and why we spar. I'm only interested in explaining these in the dojo over a students natural training curve... just as I've learned it. It's a doing thing. I've seen manys a debate on these things and they come to nothing. If you're really interested you'll put the time in to find out on the mats. I think that's fair enough.

Yep fair enough alright.

I was just wondering how someone who is able to spar wasn't being able to do it. Its happened to me a few times that I went to new clubs; in those instances it was usually the instructor keeping me at arm's length until he could guage my ability and whether he could maintain his invulnerable veneer if he took me on. I appreciate that different arts don't equate, for example someone joining Point Blank from a tkd background would have no idea how to spar on the ground, it just wouldn't translate. Someone moving from say Judo however would. Similarily moving from MMA into anything you would be fine to spar as you have covered all three ranges.

I hope that clarifies where I was coming from.

jim o doom

pearsquasher wrote: »

You can check out the FAQ I wrote for my website. Any more questions after that are probably best answered at the dojo through watching a class and then, if it appeals to you, attending classes for a probationary period... this period is both for your and mine satisfaction of interest levels.

These steps would indicate to me that you had more than a passing interest and therefore I'd be more interested in answering questions about training.
I could waffle all day about by 20 years in the Bujinkan... but only as I got to know the person asking.

Hey there, I will read your FAQ when my internet at home is working (only moved very recently so no web for a week or 2 or 3).. so my only resource at the mo is boards.. Can you compare bujinkan training &/or sparring to any other art at all? Just looking for info, and I won't be training anything until I am at leas 1st Dan kenpo - i know ppl say don't wait, but I only have so much time and energy, that's why I am researching all these other interesting arts as I go along - I'd quite like to know what each art focusses most on - so if I am weak in those areas I might try it once I'm kenpotastic cheers!

TKD SC

pearsquasher wrote: »

"Another" art?.. of course not. Sparring in Bujinkan != judo != karate != BJJ. In fact... Bujinkan isn't even a sparring art like these other diciplines so the focus on it different in when, how and why we spar. .

Mark - from my whole 10 weeks of trying out Bujinkan a couple years back!, my best description of the sparring / techniques thought (that I did / saw) was more along the lines of 3/2/1 step sparring in tkd, except more advanced and more techniques etc. That's what I would think anyway of the line above re it's not "a sparring art like these other disciplines", and my own way of looking at it...

ryoishin

Im not a boojer but from my experience of the bujinkan what happens in a class depends on the teacher.

Some spar some dont!

pearsquasher

There IS sparring in Bujinkan.. we call it "randori".

It's NOT done at beginning level.. there's much more to do before then.

It's different to competition sparring because Bujinkan is not a sport.

Why it's done, how its done and when its done all depends on the teacher's evaluation of the level of the student in Bujinkan Budo Taijutsu - not anything else.

This is all in my FAQ page.

Furious-Dave

pearsquasher, does Bujinkan have both Ippon and Jiyu Kumite? Also, what about styles like Kyokushin and Ashihara where beginners start Kumite almost immediately. I know some schools wait a few months before allowing beginners to spar, others allow it on the first day.

OSU.

pearsquasher

does Bujinkan have both Ippon and Jiyu Kumite

- We have "Randori" like I already said.

what about styles like Kyokushin and Ashihara

- I don't know anything about Kyokushin and Ashihara. I practice and teach Bujinkan Budo Taijutsu.

I know some schools wait a few months before allowing beginners to spar, others allow it on the first day.

- I've addressed the time frame for sparring already both here and in the FAQ. If anyone's that interested they can come and watch a class and ask me these questions in person. Read my previous post - http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=58139448&postcount=2

Furious-Dave

pearsquasher wrote: »

- We have "Randori" like I already said.

Sorry, I'm just not really familiar with using the term "Randori"...I am now though.

- I don't know anything about Kyokushin and Ashihara. I practice and teach Bujinkan Budo Taijutsu.

I know what you practice/teach, but that doesn't mean you mightn't know about other systems. My point was not about the systems themselves but rather the fact that people start sparring almost immediately, despite both systems being highly technical and also having a lot to learn. From my experience I found that people who start sparring (with contact) early on become efficient more quickly at Martial Arts in general than those who have to wait until they are at a certain level before they are allowed spar. Of course the Kihon also has to be good.

OSU.

TKD SC

pearsquasher wrote: »

It's different to competition sparring because Bujinkan is not a sport.

I think this sentence above is probably the key - IMHO most people would think of competition type MA sparring when they think of sparring.

Whether that is tkd, judo, bjj, kickboxing, muay thai, boxing, wrestling, sanda, mma, karate, sambo, etc etc. They all have a competitive element and hence sparring done in order to beat your opponent under the rules of the particular MA in q's.

Obviously these rules and MA styles (as listed above) differ hugely, but there is a common idea in place whereby you are competing, trying to get more punches / kicks / ippons / KO / submission / etc and hence win the fight / match / game. And both competitors are doing completely free sparring, whatever they want, when they want to, reacting in whatever way they want etc etc, once within the rules.

I think Bujinkan randori is probably like aikido randori rather than say judo randori, just from what I've seen. I must admit I find it hard to get my head around the idea of sparring without a competitive element. Surely then it is more a free practise of techniques on one another...perhaps that is what Bujinkan randori is? Ali, would that be a fair comment? For example, I know Wing Chun doesn't have a competitive sparring element either but they do various drills that might equate to bujinkan randori type sparring.

Good to throw these things out there anyway and learn more about other MAs!

Martin25

I know some of the old school Ninjitsu guys from up here and their version of sparring was to knock forty bells out of each other and anyone else who was game enough to do it with them!

CFC1969

Martin,


I see you are acquainted to Mr Lavery and Mr Mc Conville !!!!

Gary Mc was a very proficent boxer who represented NI at Commonwealths, was also a BBD Black Belt.

In Brian Mc Carthys Dojo, as Ali can testify to, everyone sparred and grappled, no matter the grade ..... aaahhh the good oul days !!!!!!

Martin25

We used to beat the hell out of each other,very therapeutic!
I was talking to Gary the other day.

Ug Lee

Martin25 wrote: »

I know some of the old school Ninjitsu guys from up here and their version of sparring was to knock forty bells out of each other and anyone else who was game enough to do it with them!

I don't know how the guys you mentioned above did/do it but a lot of the time there is no link between the technical training and the sparring.

The sparring should be a way of pressure testing the techical stuff taught in class. Too often the technical stuff goes out the window when pressure tested and the people just hammer away and they call it sparring as if it validates the unworkable techniques.

Martin25

Good point .The guys could technically spar and do it well ,they also had a fearsome reputation for "hammering". I think that the Japanese Instructors liked their style.

CFC1969

Ug Lee wrote: »

I don't know how the guys you mentioned above did/do it but a lot of the time there is no link between the technical training and the sparring.

The sparring should be a way of pressure testing the techical stuff taught in class. Too often the technical stuff goes out the window when pressure tested and the people just hammer away and they call it sparring as if it validates the unworkable techniques.

Don,t quite get your point, can you be more specific ......

Most lads who trained years ago had experience in Boxing, Thai , TKD, Karate , Judo etc ...., and as Ninjutsu is a living art each instructor had his own style, when sparring / technique part , only thing they all had in common was the hitting was hard, but with good intention.

CFC1969

Martin25 wrote: »

We used to beat the hell out of each other,very therapeutic!
I was talking to Gary the other day.

Yeah, Lawrence and Gary are gentlemen, even as the were beatin, the **** out of me !!!

ryoishin

sparing for tv in bujinkan hombu

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TehL9TyNYtQ

Same style different organisation shows some sparring

http://www.dailymotion.com/relevance/search/genbukan/video/x227sc_genbukan-shinken-bujutsu-i_extreme

Ug Lee

CFC1969 wrote: »

Don,t quite get your point, can you be more specific ......

Most lads who trained years ago had experience in Boxing, Thai , TKD, Karate , Judo etc ...., and as Ninjutsu is a living art each instructor had his own style, when sparring / technique part , only thing they all had in common was the hitting was hard, but with good intention.

I am not talking about the Ninjitsu guys. I was just talking in general about some martial arts. If you (not you personally) are teaching specific "techniques" which you claim works under pressure and say that sparring is evidence that these "techniques" work then these techniques have to come out in sparring. Say for example, Karate. If you practise blocking and then when you spar or are in a competition and you don't do any blocks then you cannot claim that you spar using your Karate as taught in class or that it is propertly pressure tested.

CFC1969

Ug Lee wrote: »

I am not talking about the Ninjitsu guys. I was just talking in general about some martial arts. If you (not you personally) are teaching specific "techniques" which you claim works under pressure and say that sparring is evidence that these "techniques" work then these techniques have to come out in sparring. Say for example, Karate. If you practise blocking and then when you spar or are in a competition and you don't do any blocks then you cannot claim that you spar using your Karate as taught in class or that it is propertly pressure tested.

True, In Bujinkan (old days, not involved anymore...) technique would be self defence / reactive (restraint, parry, strike, throw etc ..) , the sparring was offensive, not much technique used due to lack of surprise and level of opponent .... both were performed hard, and both had relevance in real world situations.

Ug Lee

CFC1969 wrote: »

True, In Bujinkan (old days, not involved anymore...) technique would be self defence / reactive (restraint, parry, strike, throw etc ..) , the sparring was offensive, not much technique used due to lack of surprise and level of opponent .... both were performed hard, and both had relevance in real world situations.

I know what you mean and they are all fair comments. I am sure you got a lot out of your sparring however I feel that people can sometimes get more out of it if they don't focus on the offensive aspect of sparring and focus instead on the defensive part. Yes they it will look like they lose more often however I feel that they will learn more in the long term.

weemate

Been reading through this thread and I really dont see your point.You say that the student would get a lot more out of sparring by only concentrating on defence?Personally I think that the 'sparring ' then becomes training technique at a pace.Techniques need to be pressure tested to be sure that they are of any use at all and what then is the point of practising effective striking unless you are able to put that to the test against a resisting opponent who is moving and counter striking at the same time?

Einstein

FWIW I studied Bujinkan for about 4 years when I was younger. I really really enjoyed it, found it great for fitness and conditioning, until the instructor became a bit too big for his boots. I struggled for a time to make regular training because of work commitments and the smart ass comments were coming a bit too often from him so i packed it in. Unfortunate because it really worked for me.

Ug Lee

weemate wrote: »

Been reading through this thread and I really dont see your point.You say that the student would get a lot more out of sparring by only concentrating on defence?Personally I think that the 'sparring ' then becomes training technique at a pace.Techniques need to be pressure tested to be sure that they are of any use at all and what then is the point of practising effective striking unless you are able to put that to the test against a resisting opponent who is moving and counter striking at the same time?

No problem. Guess what I am trying to say is instead of practising what you are good at, practise instead what you are not so good at instead of hammering away.Remember Rumble in the Jungle. Ali was afraid of getting caught on the ropes with Foreman. So when he was with his training partner he worked this and it looked like he was losing against his partner. However it stood to him in his fight against Foreman. Maybe in Thai you are great striking but not so good in clinch. Maybe then when "sparring" with a partner instead of hammering away to defeat your partner, instead let him get you in the clinch and work your defences from there.

weemate

What you are describing is ' situational ' sparring where you can develop the weaker part of your game,such as in BJJ for example where you start in your weakest position during rolling to strengthen that side of your art.
I think what the other guys were describing was free sparring but I can see what you are getting at now.

FruitLover

Ug Lee wrote: »

people just hammer away and they call it sparring

Let's not forget the benefits of a good baetin' either. Technique is all well and good, but IMO getting used to taking a bruising is also important.

Ug Lee

weemate wrote: »

What you are describing is ' situational ' sparring where you can develop the weaker part of your game,such as in BJJ for example where you start in your weakest position during rolling to strengthen that side of your art.
I think what the other guys were describing was free sparring but I can see what you are getting at now.

Cool :-) You can differentiate between the different types of sparring (situational and free) and can see the benefit of each. However the word "sparring" by itself is vague and is sometimes carelessly applied to activities that don't bring any real benefit.

jim o doom

FruitLover wrote: »

Let's not forget the benefits of a good baetin' either. Technique is all well and good, but IMO getting used to taking a bruising is also important.

I'd well agree with this - it also gets you used to ducking & avoiding, blocking with fast attacks coming in, trying to retaliate fast, it conditions you to fight as well. I don't agree that techniques need come in perfectly - in kenpo there's a lot of attacking weak points or ripping body parts or doing all sorts of things you can't do with a pair of gloves on.. or in fact with them off unless you are planning on putting an opponent in hospital.. that parts of the techniques that should come out is the foot work and learning to ride punches and your timing and stuff like that - but of course I can't apply that stuff to bujinkan because I know VERY little about it

pearsquasher

I can't apply that stuff to bujinkan because I know VERY little about it

Go visit a dojo... there's heaps of them at www.bujinkan.ie. Even better, spend some time visiting a few and arm yourself with as many questions as possible. I expect every visitor to view a full class AND show me they were taking it all in by asking questions in person... I mean you're the one interested right? I've never read anything on martial arts that, a few minutes with a qualified teacher didn't make me go "oh right... now I get you".

jim o doom

pearsquasher wrote: »

Go visit a dojo... there's heaps of them at www.bujinkan.ie. Even better, spend some time visiting a few and arm yourself with as many questions as possible. I expect every visitor to view a full class AND show me they were taking it all in by asking questions in person... I mean you're the one interested right? I've never read anything on martial arts that, a few minutes with a qualified teacher didn't make me go "oh right... now I get you".

That's fair enough pearsquasher - at the moment I really only have the time for internet questions - I just bought a gaff, getting married in June, have a job & have my brown belt test next wednesday - and working hard towards black, so you can imagine my spare time is pretty non existant at the moment! But when I finally do have time I am sure I will PM you and see if I can come along and check out the classes

Bujinkan

I'm not sure where your based Jim O Doom but I run 2 Bujinkan clubs, one in Lucan and one in Leixlip. I'm also an ex-Kempo black belt (IKKA). If you want to pop down and take a couple of classes in my clubs feel free. We do full contact sparring / Randori if you want to roll with my lads, it would be our pleasure. My details are on www.dwyerdojo.com

Marcus

CFC1969

jim o doom wrote: »

That's fair enough pearsquasher - at the moment I really only have the time for internet questions - I just bought a gaff, getting married in June, have a job & have my brown belt test next wednesday - and working hard towards black, so you can imagine my spare time is pretty non existant at the moment! But when I finally do have time I am sure I will PM you and see if I can come along and check out the classes

All the best with the Brown belt Jim