GSOC

Eru

Lads, seems to be some confusion about GSOC, their powers and what we have to answer or hand over. This is by no means complete just a few things I have spotted since they came in (includes a few sneaky tricks I know they have tried)

1. They have the same power of arrest for Gardai that Gardai have for everyone else. If its not an arrestable offence or a disciplinary only offence they cannot arrest or detain you.

2. There is no such thing as an 'informal' statement. Its either a statement or its not. GSOC only take cautioned statements from Gardai so be advised, if they ask for a statement its cautioned.

3. If your not directly named (includes shoulder number, etc) in the complaint you are not obliged to respond.

4. If you are a Garda witness you are not obliged to make a statement. They cannot force you to be a witness anymore than we can force civilians.

5. They have a power to enter and search any Garda installation however they cannot search your private belongings.

6. They require a warrant to seize any items not within eyeshot just as Gardai do. Do hot hand over evidence from a crime without prior authorisation.

7. They have authority to enter a crime scene however the commanding officer should be contacted prior to entry. A decision is then made between both senior officers concerning scene control.

8. They are not entitled to simple look through Garda files, evidence and any other items unless it is required for an active investigation. If they are in the station or whatever you can stop them from entering certain areas (cells) and viewing articles (custody record) unless its for an investigation. However if they require access this should be arranged in advance with the Super.

9. They can demand name, rank, etc from anyone in a Garda station however this does not include personal details such as address, car registration. The station is your address as far as they are concerned.

10. If an investigation against you is still active then its active. It has been tried by them to get statements from members by suggesting the case is going nowhere. If the case is going nowhere then it should be dropped and you should be cleared. They require evidence before approaching a suspect just like we do. If a complaint is withdrawn then its withdrawn and they have no business contacting you.

11. They can demand you account for your actions however this must be specific. They require a time and date and incident. They cant simple demand you tell them what you did for 8 hours. You are entitled to 'reasonable' time to respond. Take it, dont feel under pressure to answer straight away and consult the GRA.

12. The power to demand name, rank and account for actions can only be utilised for discipline. It cannot be used for a criminal investigation therefore if you are under investigation for a crime (lets say assault) they must act within their legal powers and afford you your legal rights. namely the right to silence.

13. If arrested, you have the full legal and constitutional rights as any other person arrested and/or detained. You should also be brought to an alternative station besides the one you work in.

14. important: They have no authority over civilians. Think about this, remember students are not members of AGS but are civilian trainees. It doesnt matter if your being investigated for a crime, a discipline case or even as a witness, they cannot demand anything of you or arrest you. This includes any events prior to attestation. Just because your a member now doesnt change the fact that you were a civilian at the time. I know a member and a student that were threatened with arrest even though they were only witnesses and not the subject of a complaint.

15. they can request Garda assistance in dealing with a suspect or scene but you are not obliged to do so.

16. Finally, an update to an old regulation and one I have only become aware of. You are not required to ID yourself when off duty unless acting as a member. In fact, now you should not.

Jay112

Handy to know, cheers Karlitos.

deadwood

Will they be allowed pepper spray us?

Eru

deadwood wrote: »

Will they be allowed pepper spray us?

yep then the ombudsman ombudsman will investigate the Garda ombudsman.

deadwood

Thans for clearing that up, Karl.

cushtac

Don't go near them without a decent solicitor, a friend of mine was called in for a 'chat' over a complaint against another member & ended up getting blamed by GSOC for the whole thing.

FGR

It's the one good thing about court experience..

You know the good solicitors from the poor ones. I know who I'd pick to represent me.


...I wonder could I look for legal aid?

pa990

Karl, Where did you get this info from.

I'd like to print off an 'official copy' and highlight the relevant sections

Paulzx

Karlitosway1978 wrote: »

14. important: They have no authority over civilians. .

Hmm. Interesting to hear that. I know a non Guard who gave them a statement. He was under the impression that they had got authority over him. They certainly didn't tell him otherwise

doingmybit

pa990 wrote: »

Karl, Where did you get this info from.

I'd like to print off an 'official copy' and highlight the relevant sections

Try this site
http://www.gardaombudsman.ie/gsoc-garda-ombudsman-information-for-garda.htm hope that helps.. Also, they are giving away heeps of information about GSOC to all that pass through the doors in templemore. You can also ask your training division if the station has one, they might help:)

Murph the Smurf

Hi everyone

I've been a long time lurker on this forum and find it extremly interesting so first of all I'd like to thank you all for hours of very informative reading material. This post particularly caught my attention because of something I recently read in the GSOC's annual report for 2007.

On page 34 of the report under sub-section 3.2 it states the following:

GSOC Annual Report wrote:

3.2 Significant Amendments to the Act to date.
• Section 98: removal of the restriction of GSOC powers and responsibilities to the member of the Garda Síochána under investigation. The original wording restricted GSOC’s ability to exercise its “garda-type” powers making them effective only in relation to the member of the Garda Síochána under investigation. The removal of that restriction allowed GSOC to conduct investigations more effectively by extending those powers to cover members of the Garda Síochána and members of the public alike.

given what Karlitosway1978 has said below:

Karlitosway1978 wrote: »

14. important: They have no authority over civilians. Think about this, remember students are not members of AGS but are civilian trainees. It doesnt matter if your being investigated for a crime, a discipline case or even as a witness, they cannot demand anything of you or arrest you. This includes any events prior to attestation. Just because your a member now doesnt change the fact that you were a civilian at the time. I know a member and a student that were threatened with arrest even though they were only witnesses and not the subject of a complaint.

I'm a little confused over the situation regarding the GSOC and civilians (be they members of the public who are witnesses or civilian members of AGS).
To be honest the article in the annual report frightened me at the start as my reading of this leads me to think that they've effectively established themselves (or at least they themselves believe that they've established themselves) as a quasi-police force who now have the same powers as AGS when dealing with civilians. Am I reading this the wrong way?

If this is the case then how could a civilian body be effectively given more powers than the true police agency of this state?

Eru

The GSOC website, Garda act 2005 and joint decisions on working relationship agreed between the big man and gsoc is where some of this is coming from. I also included some observations of my own and also what I have been told by GRA. Like all law, it can be a little confusing and of course, they aint going to highlight their own failings and restrictions.

As for civilians, they can recommend action against civilians for malicious complaints etc but again, cannot arrest them. They are here for one purpose only, to investigate complaints against Gardai so arresting civilians would make no sense and be counter productive for them. In regards Pauls friend, if they threatened him with arrest then thats something to worry about if not they simple failed to tell hiim everything.

Basically, as said above, dont go in for 'a chat' (AKA 'informal statement'). If they are talking to you they are investigating you with a view to prosecute just like we do when investigating a complaint.

Now, please dont loook on this as a definitive guide to GSOC. Its far from it, its simple clarification of some points which people seemed unsure about.

metman

I took the view that GSOC would have authority over civilians as well. It states on their website that they have power to investigate 'former Gardai' who, presumably, are civilians.

My basic understanding of their powers was that they have all the powers and entitlements of a member of AGS whilst investigating a complaint or initiating an investigation in the public interest.

Like everything else, until such time as their powers as tested by the courts, a lot of what they can and cannot do will be the subject of conjecture.

Eru

metman wrote: »

I took the view that GSOC would have authority over civilians as well. It states on their website that they have power to investigate 'former Gardai' who, presumably, are civilians.

My basic understanding of their powers was that they have all the powers and entitlements of a member of AGS whilst investigating a complaint or initiating an investigation in the public interest.

Like everything else, until such time as their powers as tested by the courts, a lot of what they can and cannot do will be the subject of conjecture.

True very true and personally, Im off the opinion that a good but of it will fail in court when challenged.

The civilain / Garda thing. Its all about what you were at the time of the incident. retired Garda but the complaint is about something he did when he was a Garda, can arrest. Garda who was a civilian at the time, no arrest. Of course the reality is if your retired they can only really go after you for a criminal act.

I also know they have made a number of mistakes, which in fairness happens and now the laws, powers and how they do things are being amended over time.

One thing I know that they have resolved is an incident involving a Garda and a civilian with both parties being suspects. Now they are leaving the investigation with Gardai and simple keeping informed of the case and then reviewing the finished file to see if they are happy enough everything is above board. good common sense there I think and again, they deserve credit for that.

eroo

I suppose the thing with the GSOC is that it is still 'learning to walk', and things will change through trial and error?

donvito99

Should be stickied, good piece of info on here.

pa990

doingmybit wrote: »

Try this site
http://www.gardaombudsman.ie/gsoc-garda-ombudsman-information-for-garda.htm hope that helps.. Also, they are giving away heeps of information about GSOC to all that pass through the doors in templemore. You can also ask your training division if the station has one, they might help:)

HA.. my cpd/inservice are complete rubbish

ScubaDave

pa990 wrote: »

HA.. my cpd/inservice are complete rubbish

Surely not! :rolleyes:

pa990

ScubaDave wrote: »

Surely not! :rolleyes:

i jest you not

Bren1609

Just going slightly off topic for a second. Where do they actually get the people who work in the GSOC? Are they ex members? Surely they would have to have some type of police training if they have powers of arrest?

metman

Some ex-guards, mostly ex-police from UK, Australia, NZ as well as people from customs/other investigative backgrounds.

doingmybit

metman wrote: »

Some ex-guards, mostly ex-police from UK, Australia, NZ as well as people from customs/other investigative backgrounds.

Didn't i hear in the news lately that the chairman is resigning, something to do with the problems they are having with their powers and some cases they are investigating at the mo. I think his name is Kevin Haugh?

Bren1609

metman wrote: »

Some ex-guards, mostly ex-police from UK, Australia, NZ as well as people from customs/other investigative backgrounds.

Interesting. You would imagine they still need some form of training?

metman

Which is why new investigators to GSOC undergo a structured training program through the University of Portsmouth. This is the same training desgined for, and undertaken by, the Independent Police Complaints Commission in the UK (IPCC).

From the GSOC website:

Training commenced in March 2007. The University of Portsmouth, which has had prior experience in providing training for both OPONI and IPCC, was awarded the training contract, having formed local partnerships in Ireland, including one with the Law School of the Honourable Society of the King’s Inns in Dublin.

From garda.ie:

Training programmes for all personnel are being conducted in Dublin by staff from the University of Portsmouth who also provide training for PONI and IPCC. GSOC has had the active co-operation of the King’s Inns Law School and the Garda College at Templemore who have provided invaluable written materials for use in its training programmes

TheNog

doingmybit wrote: »

Didn't i hear in the news lately that the chairman is resigning, something to do with the problems they are having with their powers and some cases they are investigating at the mo. I think his name is Kevin Haugh?

THE CHAIRMAN of the Garda Síochána Ombudsman Commission (GSOC), Mr Justice Kevin Haugh, has indicated his wish to leave the commission and return to the bench, The Irish Times has learned.

It is understood that Mr Justice Haugh wishes to return to the bench next February, when he will have served three years.

Mr Justice Haugh's appointment as chairman of the new body was announced in October 2005, but he, along with the other two commissioners, Conor Brady and Carmel Foley, did not receive their warrants until February 2006.

He will return to the bench as a High Court judge, although he was only appointed a High Court judge days before his appointment to the commission was announced. He had served for 10 years as a judge of the Circuit Court.

The legislation specifies that the chairman of the commission may be a judge of the superior courts, that is the High Court or Supreme Court. While it lays out conditions for the appointment of a judge to this position, and for his or her replacement while in it, it does not specify that the chairman must be a member of the judiciary. The GSOC was established to replace the old Garda Complaints Board system, which was seen as ineffective because it involved gardaí investigating gardaí.

Earlier this year the GSOC asked the Government to give it the power to opt out of fully investigating some of the public's complaints against gardaí. Instead, some complaints would be referred to the Garda Commissioner or, when warranted, could be wound down after a brief preliminary inquiry.

The commission stressed that only relatively minor complaints would be referred to the Garda Commissioner.

The commission would monitor the Garda's investigations and could at any time decide to take back control of a case. The then minister for justice, Brian Lenihan, met the commission last year and it was stated then that he had reached substantial agreement with the commission and that legislative changes would be brought to the Cabinet shortly thereafter.

The GSOC received almost 3,000 complaints in its first year of operation, according to its latest annual report, published in May. The report also stated that it was conducting 750 investigations into alleged criminal conduct and had sent nine cases to the Director of Public Prosecutions for consideration.

source

Eru

I love it, 750 cases, 9 files to the dpp. What people dont realise is you have to send a file to the dpp regardless of if the complaint is bull**** or not once the complaint involves a criminal accusation.

As for staff, originally it was solicitors, etc which recieved some training but not to police standards. They basically ****ed up a lot and as a result they started to draft in ex police. They have also sought serving Gardai as the ex members they drafted in where not used to current laws and systems of investigation. Nor where they 100% up on the Irish judicial system.

However, dont disregard their abilities or look down on them as 'inferior' detectives.