Different level groupsets - what does it actually mean??

StudentC

Hi

I've been lurking here a while and reading all the "newbie wants their first real bike" threads, as I'm one of those newbies too.

One thing that is confusing me is what quality of components I actually need, and what is the benefit of spending more money?

E.g I can see that the bikes I've been looking at have different Shimano groupsets - 2200, Tiagra, Sora, 105 etc etc. Obviously the more you pay the better the gear, but what does this actually mean? What sort of difference would I notice when cycling? If I'm just your average commuter, will I actually beneift from better components or would I not notice?

I still haven't decided between a road bike and a commuter - I've ridden both before and liked both, for different reasons. I'm looking at some of the Beone bikes in the CRC flood sale. Nice and cheap - obviously they are entry level but this is all I need for the moment (~10km commute, and maybe a 30-40 km ride at the weekend). What would I really gain from spending more?

Thanks for any advice

Chips Lovell

2200 = 8 speed
Sora and Tiagra = 9 speed
105 and up = 10 speed

2200 and Sora have a brake lever and thumb lever combo for shifting.

All other Shimno have brake lever and paddle for shifting. Most people prefer this, as unlike with Campagnolo components, the thumb lever is very poorly positioned.

Generally speaking with groupsets, moving from lower to mid range will result in smoother and more accurate shifting. Moving from mid to high end is more about weight savings and marginal performance benefits.

As an average commuter, you wouldn't notice too much of a difference. Shifting would be somewhat crisper moving up to mid-range and you probably wouldn't need to adjust the gears as much, that's all.

If you're really into your cycling, e.g. racing, then small difference really become apparent, as a mucky gear shift could see you losing ground etc.

xz

I have 2200 on my road bike, I have had absolutely no problems with it, and I personally find the thumb shift OK,
But in saying that, I am upgrading my groupset components to a mix of Tiagra and 105 (Tiagra shifters, and 105, everything else,only going 9 speed, its all I need).
2200 shifts nice and crisp and will suffice for what you are talking about.
But, as with me, you are starting with short distances in mind.
Believe me, the more you cycle and the fitter you get, the further you will want to go.
So my amateur advice would be, go for 105 10 speed if you can afford it right now, or you will end up, like me ,paying for it eventually, once you get hooked.
If you intend to stick to just commuting(which I doubt you will) any of the groupsets would be fine, but would push towards Tiagra, would be the best of the lower end groupsets, and not too much of a difference from 105

tunney

xz wrote: »

If you intend to stick to just commuting(which I doubt you will) any of the groupsets would be fine, but would push towards Tiagra, would be the best of the lower end groupsets, and not too much of a difference from 105

105 is hugely improved from Tiagra. Overkill for a commuter however.

StudentC

Thanks for the replies.

About the shifters - a road bike that I borrowed for a few months had Sora shifters I think and I found it fine - maybe because I didn't know any better! I did always like the look of other people's paddle shifters though.

XZ - I know what you mean about buying basic now, only to be upgrading and spendidng more next year. With me it's a 50-50 chance that I get really into it, or decide that I hate cycling completely, so am wary about spending too much. I never used to cycle, then moved to Canberra in Australia and cycled everywhere - flat, loads of bike lanes and bike paths, drivers who were used to cyclists. Being home now I am a bit of a chicken about cycling in Dublin!

I'm leaning towards entry level, but maybe not the absolute cheapest of the cheap. Somehting like this Beone, for e375

http://www.chainreactioncycles.com/Models.aspx?ModelID=25457

or a slightly higher model for e470

http://www.chainreactioncycles.com/Models.aspx?ModelID=25458

I was hoping to spend not more than e500 (student budget) and when I add some pedals and a new saddle (I'm a girl, and I like comfy saddles ) I'd be over budget already!

I think I'll get myself out on my old brick of a mountain bike this weekend , and try to decide how much I actually like this cycling lark !

Thanks for the advice

Lumen

tunney wrote: »

105 is hugely improved from Tiagra. Overkill for a commuter however.

Which bits are a huge improvement?

I just ordered a cyclocross bike with Tiagra, for £700. The 105 version was £1000, and most of the other components looked identical.

xz

Lumen wrote: »

Which bits are a huge improvement?

I just ordered a cyclocross bike with Tiagra, for £700. The 105 version was £1000, and most of the other components looked identical.

Like I was saying, NOT TOO MUCH DIFFERENCE;)

blorg

tunney wrote: »

105 is hugely improved from Tiagra. Overkill for a commuter however.

My own experience is limited to Sora, 105, Ultegra (& the SL variant) and rarely altogether in a complete group so difficult to put my finger on things. I will say that when I had it I thought Sora worked fine; generally even entry-level Shimano is well-engineered.

As Tunney says, it is generally considered that there is quite a jump between Tiagra and 105, 105 being the entry level "race" groupset. I have read that there is little difference in the mechanical operation above 105 and you are mostly looking at weight savings. Having said that the little difference there could be important (albeit unlikely on a commute.)

Another advantage of 105 is that it is 10 speed and 100% cross-compatible with Ultegra and 7800 Dura-Ace so you have an upgrade-in-bits option option to you.

Personally my minimum for a commute is Ultegra, if I can't have that I ditch the gears entirely and ride a fixie.

Lumen

blorg wrote: »

My own experience is limited to Sora, 105, Ultegra (& the SL variant) and rarely altogether in a complete group so difficult to put my finger on things.

You wouldn't have that problem with Campag.

(Duh-dum, tshhh, I'm here all week)

Seriously, I have Veloce on the road bike and it's fine, but it needs mechanical sympathy - shifting under load at low revs is clunky. I've also dropped the chain a couple of times when shifting front and rear simultaneously (to smaller cogs on both) probably due to releasing too much chain tension.

I'm probably shifting wrong, but I don't remember having these issues with my early-1990s Ultegra.

To bring some perspective, I'm currently looking at this small road bike (not for me) and it has a real mix of low-end componentry, but gets reviewed well nonetheless.

I asked a LBS mechanic about Tiagra at the weekend and he said it was a bit uglier and heavier than 105, but didn't seem to wear out any quicker.

I've also read that cyclocross racers prefer 9sp Tiagra to 10sp 105 and higher as the mud clearance is better.

Quigs Snr

Go for 105 for performance and upgradeability. The difference between 2200 and Tiagra is more significant than it used to be, but still probably not worth doing.

Besides, everyone knows that the higher the groupset, the bigger your man parts. (Or female equivalent).

CianRyan

Sorry to kind of hijack the thread, but...

There is a lot of gear talking going, and i today got VERY annoyed with my gears and how jerky they are, when i smashed my knee off the handle bars for the FIFTH time in one day, at this stage i just got of my bike and shouted at it, (i was in the middle of a forest so i think that makes it O.K.... :rolleyes:) and decided there and then, that i had to upgrade my gears.

My current shifters are SRAM SX4 8 speed, has anyone any experience with these? How do they compare to other gears? Can i actually get a smoother transition?

Seriously like, I've been riding BMXs all my life so this is all new to me.

So what would anyone recommend for an upgrade, keeping in mind, i mountain bike, not riding a road bike.

Thanks in advance lads.

Tau

I've been looking at the BeOne Briza:

http://www.chainreactioncycles.com/LargeImage.aspx?ModelID=25457&FileName=25457-4.Jpg

It's supposed to have Sora, which you say is 9 speed. Does it have 3 chain rings? (in the photo) isn't that unusual?

And, if you don't mind me asking a only slightly related question, how do you change gears with the Sora shifters?

http://www.chainreactioncycles.com/LargeImage.aspx?ModelID=25457&FileName=25457-3.Jpg

Is having paddles much of an advantage?

DirkVoodoo

A triple is fairly standard on an entry level road bike. It gives you more options and the smaller ring will make hill climbing easier if you aren't used to cycling.

Sora has a thumb shifter on the hoods and a brake lever shifter. What do you mean by paddles? The brake lever? Some people don't like the thumb shifter on a sora, I tried it out and didn't mind it, I wouldn't choose it over the integrated brake/shifters, but for entry level they are fine and mechanically sound.

Shimano Sora

That technical document shows the gear operation.

Tau

By paddle I meant something like what's behind the brake lever on this:

http://www.chainreactioncycles.com/Models.aspx?ModelID=13646

Is that an "integrated brake/shifter"?

(thanks for the link! - that made things a lot clearer)


Back to the Briza, if it has 3 chainrings where most road bikes have 2, are all the ratios different? Or could you effectively ignore the smallest one and have a similar set up to a roadbike with only 2 chainrings?

Chips Lovell

Thumb button or paddle, they're all integrated brake shifters.

blorg

Most triples are 52-39-30 or 50-39-30. Less common is a 42 middle chainring.

A standard road double is 53-39.

So if you have a 52-39-30 triple, yes, when not using the small ring your ratios will be pretty similar to a standard road double, around 1% off (given the same cassette.) The cassette you have on the back of course is more critical; you have a range of 21-28 commonly available for your biggest cog, and a choice of 11 or 12 for the smallest.

Most people find the "paddle" easier to shift from the drops than Sora's thumb lever, which is a very small protrusion quite unlike Campagnolo's version. However you are probably going to do most of your shifting from the hoods in any case and IIRC it is reachable in a pinch, some people have no problem with it. If I had a choice I would personally go for the paddle.

DirkVoodoo

If the shifters are really that big of a concern for you, the BeOne Storm 2.0 has Tiagra brake/shifters (paddles) and can be had for 38% off at €470.

BeOne Storm 2.0

E@gle.

Remeber if its not campag its not Euro

Chips Lovell

E@gle. wrote: »

Remeber if its not campag its not Euro

It's a lost cause. They'll never learn.

TinyExplosions

E@gle. wrote: »

Remeber if its not campag its not Euro

SRAM's allowed under some circumstances (If it's RED)

Chips Lovell

TinyExplosions wrote: »

SRAM's allowed under some circumstances (If it's RED)

Just because a product is owned by TinyExplosions, does not mean its cool. It doesn't work that way.

E@gle.

TinyExplosions wrote: »

SRAM's allowed under some circumstances (If it's RED)

Do you have SRAM red?? how do you find it ?

blorg

He doesn't have it. He is currently at the lusting after stage.

TinyExplosions

RED is but a pipe dream for me... next bike will have Force or Rival (I want Force, but Rival is such good value it's hard to say no -105 price for near DA performance/weight)

TinyExplosions

el tonto wrote: »

Just because a product is owned by TinyExplosions, does not mean its cool. It doesn't work that way.

Oh, but it does -cool, but not necessarily euro

E@gle.

TinyExplosions wrote: »

RED is but a pipe dream for me... next bike will have Force or Rival (I want Force, but Rival is such good value it's hard to say no -105 price for near DA performance/weight)

nah man go for campag super record 11, that will score you some serious euro points

TinyExplosions

E@gle. wrote: »

nah man go for campag super record 11, that will score you some serious euro points

ba! I don't need 11.... 10 is plenty, I'm hard don'tcha know

Tau

DirkVoodoo wrote: »

If the shifters are really that big of a concern for you, the BeOne Storm 2.0 has Tiagra brake/shifters (paddles) and can be had for 38% off at €470.

BeOne Storm 2.0

I've seen the Storm - it's very interesting looking.

Do people think the prices for the 2008 version will go down in the new year? Or are the sales so intense now, to get rid of the old model, that it won't be this cheap again until this time next year? I'm thinking that coming into summer might be a better time to buy one...

DirkVoodoo

The 08 stock will be cleared out soon, that price is probably as low as its going to get. If you want one I would advise buying soon as they may discontinue the size you want and you will have to pay more for the 09, I haven't checked the 09 for that model but 9 times out of 10 its just a new paintjob.

Boards Cycling Law #1 in effect again: Poor chap asks advice about groupset basics and it turns into a debate about why tiny's (possible) new SRAM groupset may or may not be cool.

I better start logging these...

Tau

Actually, sorry, to answer my own question, BeOne Storm 2009 is up and its way more expensive...

http://www.chainreactioncycles.com/Models.aspx?ModelID=31039

TinyExplosions

DirkVoodoo wrote: »

Boards Cycling Law #1 in effect again: Poor chap asks advice about groupset basics and it turns into a debate about why tiny's (possible) new SRAM groupset may or may not be cool.

I better start logging these...

Hey, I don't like to disappoint