Who's in Heaven now?

kelly1

Prompted by PDN remark about Heaven being a temporary waiting room, I'd be interested in knowing people's beliefs on these related questions:

Who's in Heaven right now?

Are all those who died in God's favour in Heaven now (albeit separated form their body)?

Does anyone believe that our souls only get to Heaven after the Final Judgment and Resurrection of the dead?

God bless,
Noel.

BrianCalgary

kelly1 wrote: »

Prompted by PDN remark about Heaven being a temporary waiting room, I'd be interested in knowing people's beliefs on these related questions:.

I missed this post. I wouldn't mind to know what PDN meant by this?

kelly1 wrote: »

Who's in Heaven right now? .

All those who have trusted in Jesus Christ.
As for the OT gang: those that trusted in God.

kelly1 wrote: »

Are all those who died in God's favour in Heaven now (albeit separated form their body)?.

Yes, but I understand that they are complete with body.

kelly1 wrote: »

Does anyone believe that our souls only get to Heaven after the Final Judgment and Resurrection of the dead?.

Not I. Absent from the body means present with the Lord.

PDN

BrianCalgary wrote: »

I missed this post. I wouldn't mind to know what PDN meant by this?

I meant that the idea of heaven as an eternal home that is so much better than earth owes more to Plato than to the Bible.

The biblical hope for the future is resurrection from the dead and living in God's presence in the New Jerusalem which descends to earth.

robindch

PDN wrote: »

the idea of heaven as an eternal home that is so much better than earth owes more to Plato than to the Bible.

...which is not surprising, since Plato influenced christian thought so profoundly. The Myth of Er, the λόγος of god and so on...

In fact, one could summarize much of christianity as a collection of improbable stories, built upon a small, hard core of mummified Judaic (and earlier) rules and stories, beneath a thick crust of simplified Platonism.

PDN

robindch wrote: »

In fact, one could summarize much of christianity as a collection of improbable stories, built upon a small, hard core of mummified Judaic (and earlier) rules and stories, beneath a thick crust of simplified Platonism.

One could, if one were an atheist who wanted to derail a thread about heaven by expressing their own highly subjective and biased opinion on Christianity in general.

philologos

Bear in mind, this is a question that Paul reminds us not to ask (Romans 10)

robindch

PDN wrote: »

One could, if one were an atheist who wanted to derail a thread about heaven by expressing their own highly subjective and biased opinion on Christianity in general.

Derailing? Gosh, and all I was doing was agreeing with something you'd said! I wasn't saying that it's false or even unreliable.

I'll put your tetchiness down to it being cold

Seaneh

Who is in Heaven now?

God, The Angels who follow him.
Christ

And a few of the prophets who accended.

Besides that, nobody, not your dog or your auntie mary or your granny or the lad down the road who died young or your friends baby who died at birth.

I'm not being horrible here, I just believe that nobody gets to heaven unitll the rapture happens, so we all go together.

I'll tell you who isn't in heaven right now, us.

kelly1

Seaneh wrote: »

Who is in Heaven now?

God, The Angels who follow him.
Christ

And a few of the prophets who accended.

Besides that, nobody, not your dog or your auntie mary or your granny or the lad down the road who died young or your friends baby who died at birth.

I'm not being horrible here, I just believe that nobody gets to heaven unitll the rapture happens, so we all go together.

I'll tell you who isn't in heaven right now, us.

This is the view I'm interested in discussing, thanks.

Where are the spirits of those who have died and were saved? What's to prevent them going to heaven immediately after they died?

What scripture do you base you view on?

God bless,
Noel.

Seaneh

kelly1 wrote: »

This is the view I'm interested in discussing, thanks.

Where are the spirits of those who have died and were saved? What's to prevent them going to heaven immediately after they died?

What scripture do you base you view on?

God bless,
Noel.

It's just my understanding of Revelations to be honest.

The spirit hibernates or sleeps or waits, but I don't think we can go to heaven untill prophecy has been completed.

kelly1

Seaneh wrote: »

It's just my understanding of Revelations to be honest.

The spirit hibernates or sleeps or waits, but I don't think we can go to heaven untill prophecy has been completed.

What about the Good Thief? "Today you will be with me in Paradise..."

JimiTime

kelly1 wrote: »

What about the Good Thief? "Today you will be with me in Paradise..."

Did Jesus go to paradise that day?

Also, If people go straight to heaven when thy die, what need is there for resurrection?

kelly1

JimiTime wrote: »

Did Jesus go to paradise that day? No he didn't, so it obviously meant something different.

How do you know? His body lay in the tomb but what about His human soul? Where was His soul between His death and resurrection?

JimiTime wrote: »

Also, If people go straight to heaven when thy die, what need is there for resurrection?

Resurrection is of the body. People in heaven are happy but incomlete without their bodies.

Didn't Moses and Elijah speak with Jesus at the Transfiguration?

See also

2 Cor 5:6 Therefore having always confidence, knowing that, while we are in the body, we are absent from the Lord. 7 (For we walk by faith, and not by sight.) 8 But we are confident, and have a good will to be absent rather from the body, and to be present with the Lord.

See http://www.globalserve.net/~bumblebee/ecclesia/soulslep.htm

JimiTime

kelly1 wrote: »

How do you know? His body lay in the tomb but what about His human soul? Where was His soul between His death and resurrection?

You got in before my edit:) Realised I jumped to a conclusion. Are you saying he was in paradise with the thief that day? And that Paradise is Abrahams Bosom by any chance?

Resurrection is of the body. People in heaven are happy but incomlete without their bodies.

Didn't Moses and Elijah speak with Jesus at the Transfiguration?

Also, Samuel was called up from the dead by the medium with King Saul. Its really about the state of the dead. Something there are many thoughts on I think. What is your view on it? I'm assuming your view represents the RC view? I'm not entirely sure what the RC view is, so I'd like to hear their official teaching on it.

kelly1

JimiTime wrote: »

You got in before my edit:) Realised I jumped to a conclusion. Are you saying he was in paradise with the thief that day? And that Paradise is Abrahams Bosom by any chance?

No, I mean Heaven.

What would be the point in keeping souls asleep until the resurrection? I can understand the delaying of the resurrection alright.

JimiTime wrote: »

Also, Samuel was called up from the dead by the medium with King Saul. Its really about the state of the dead. Something there are many thoughts on I think. What is your view on it?

I'm not familiar with this. What passage is it?

JimiTime wrote: »

I'm assuming your view represents the RC view? I'm not entirely sure what the RC view is, so I'd like to hear their official teaching on it.

The RCC teaches that souls immediately after death are judged and go to either hell, heaven or purgatory.

Did you read the link? A few quotes would be useful:

---

1 Peter 3:18-19
For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit: by which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison.


If the spirits in prison are dead and "know nothing", then why is Jesus preaching to them?

Matthew 22:31-32
...have ye not read that which was spoken unto you by God, saying, "I am the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob?" God is not the God of the dead, but of the living.


Revelation 20:4
I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus... they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.


Note that John saw only the souls of the martyrs.

---

Splendour

I'm kinda of the thinking that when we die we enter into some kind of waiting room be it called Heaven or Paradise. I have a couple of reasons for believing this and they are:

We are told that Heaven and Earth shall pass away thus indicating there will be a new Heaven and earth.

In Revelation we read of souls asking how long before judgement day comes around hence indicating they are not quite 'there' yet... ( I always think this kinda sad and a tad bit creepy...)

And last but not least is Lazarus and others who were raised from the dead before Jesus. Where did they go after death? I imagine they went to Paradise and because God willed it, they were pulled back to this earth. The thief on the cross may be still there waiting for the end times... Who knows but God...

Fanny Cradock

Interesting! I always thought that it was a case of either a temporal existence - here and now or the eternal planes - either heaven or hell. Looks like I stand to be corrected.

djeddy

Seaneh wrote: »

Who is in Heaven now?

God, The Angels who follow him.
Christ

And a few of the prophets who accended.

Besides that, nobody, not your dog or your auntie mary or your granny or the lad down the road who died young or your friends baby who died at birth.

I'm not being horrible here, I just believe that nobody gets to heaven unitll the rapture happens, so we all go together.

I'll tell you who isn't in heaven right now, us.

Then why did jesus say to the good thief (human like us) this day you will be with me in paradise?

PDN

djeddy wrote: »

Then why did jesus say to the good thief (human like us) this day you will be with me in paradise?

Because Paradise and heaven are two different places.

BTW, I do not subscribe to the theory of soul-sleep. I believe that, since the Resurrection of Christ, all who die in faith go to be with the Lord. Therefore those currently in heaven are God, the angels, the Old Testament saints, and every true believer in Christ who has died. There they wait for the fulfillment of what was promised to them - the resurrection from the dead followed by Eternity in God's presence when heaven and earth become one.

kelly1

PDN wrote: »

Because Paradise and heaven are two different places.

What's the difference?

PDN wrote: »

.....the resurrection from the dead followed by Eternity in God's presence when heaven and earth become one.

Why would earth be needed at all if we have heaven? Who would go to earth and who to heaven? And how would they become one?

PDN

kelly1 wrote: »

What's the difference?

Heaven is in the presence of God.

Before Christ's death & resurrection we do not read about people dying and going to heaven. They went to Sheol (Hebrew) or Hades (Greek translation of Sheol) which is the place of the dead. The Jews taught that the wicked suffered torment in lowest Sheol while the upper part of Sheol was Abraham's Bosom, or Paradise - a beautiful garden. This imagery is clearly seen in the Parable of the rich man and Lazarus in Luke 16.

We know that Jesus, following His ascension, is now seated at the right hand of the Father (in heaven). Since that ascension there is no more reference of a believer going to Sheol, Hades, Abraham's Bosom, or Paradise when they die. Instead Stephen asked Jesus to receive his spirit upon his death (Acts 7:59), while Paul described his death as going to be with Christ (Philippians 1:23).

Why would earth be needed at all if we have heaven? Who would go to earth and who to heaven? And how would they become one?

It's not so much a case of needing earth as that being what God has said he will do. Christians believe in a future general resurrection - that all of us will be raised (in new incorruptible resurrection bodies) and will exist as corporeal beings with a spirit, soul and body.

The New Testament closes with the creation of a new heaven and earth and a New Jerusalem descending from heaven to earth. There God's presence will dwell - so we have heaven and earth joined as one. All who are saved will spend eternity there.

Splendour

PDN wrote: »

Because Paradise and heaven are two different places.

BTW, I do not subscribe to the theory of soul-sleep. I believe that, since the Resurrection of Christ, all who die in faith go to be with the Lord. Therefore those currently in heaven are God, the angels, the Old Testament saints, and every true believer in Christ who has died. There they wait for the fulfillment of what was promised to them - the resurrection from the dead followed by Eternity in God's presence when heaven and earth become one.

Hi PDN, am a bit confused about what you've written here.

The thief on the cross we know went to Paradise with Jesus. You say that every true believer in Christ who has died (of which the thief is obviously one), are currently in Heaven. How then can you also say Heaven and Paradise are two separate places?

PDN

Splendour wrote: »

Hi PDN, am a bit confused about what you've written here.

The thief on the cross we know went to Paradise with Jesus. You say that every true believer in Christ who has died (of which the thief is obviously one), are currently in Heaven. How then can you also say Heaven and Paradise are two separate places?

Because when Jesus died he did not go to heaven. He went to Paradise, or Abraham's bosom. or Sheol/Hades. The mistranslation of Hades as 'Hell' has given rise to the misleading statement in the Apostles' Creed about Jesus descending into hell.

Therefore it says, "WHEN HE ASCENDED ON HIGH, HE LED CAPTIVE A HOST OF CAPTIVES, AND HE GAVE GIFTS TO MEN." (Now this expression, "He ascended," what does it mean except that He also had descended into the lower parts of the earth? He who descended is Himself also He who ascended far above all the heavens, so that He might fill all things.) (Ephesians 4:8-10)

At Christ's resurrection he led captivity captive and brought everyone in Paradise (Abraham's Bosom or Upper Sheol/Hades) into the presence of God.

So the thief on the Cross was not in heaven on Good Friday, but he was on Easter Sunday!

Splendour

Sorry for late response PDN, due to illness, I don't get on here as much as I'd like. Am still a still a little confused but I think I can see where you're coming from.
So are you saying that if 'the thief on the cross' were now to recognise Jesus for who he is then he would go directly to Heaven and not Paradise. In other words, are you saying Paradise is now obsolete?

PDN

Splendour wrote: »

Sorry for late response PDN, due to illness, I don't get on here as much as I'd like. Am still a still a little confused but I think I can see where you're coming from.
So are you saying that if 'the thief on the cross' were now to recognise Jesus for who he is then he would go directly to Heaven and not Paradise. In other words, are you saying Paradise is now obsolete?

That's it. No more paradise since the Resurrection of Christ - the saved go straight to heaven where they await the ultimate goal of salvation which is the resurrection from the dead and Eternity in God's presence.