Belt systems and why they suck

monosharp

Spent nearly a year learning TKD in Korea, its actually pretty intensive here. When I went to sign up I was told I had to come every night (Mon - Fri) and he really meant it. Missing a class was very impolite.

Anyhow. I did it and got a blue belt, my mate did it longer and got a black belt. Now in all fairness it was very physically demanding. 1 & 1/2 hours 5 days a week for nearly a year and I was starting to get very fit.

But there was huge emphasis on the TKD kata's. You needed to know them to up a belt. Now I told the instructor I didn't give a rats ass about upgrading belt status for the sake of upgrading but he seemed to think that was the only reason I and the other guy were coming. Or at least that was my opinion.

Now the other guy has a black belt in it, I have a blue and God love us but I have to say personally we really do not deserve them.

So I can do 5 or 6 kata's, amn't I great. Means nothing in real life as far as I'm concerned.

Now I did learn to do a lot of stuff quite well and I did get fit but I still don't believe I deserve anything but a 'late beginner-early intermediate' tag at very best.

Whats with the belt stuff ?

yomchi

monosharp wrote: »

Spent nearly a year learning TKD in Korea, its actually pretty intensive here. When I went to sign up I was told I had to come every night (Mon - Fri) and he really meant it. Missing a class was very impolite.

Anyhow. I did it and got a blue belt, my mate did it longer and got a black belt. Now in all fairness it was very physically demanding. 1 & 1/2 hours 5 days a week for nearly a year and I was starting to get very fit.

But there was huge emphasis on the TKD kata's. You needed to know them to up a belt. Now I told the instructor I didn't give a rats ass about upgrading belt status for the sake of upgrading but he seemed to think that was the only reason I and the other guy were coming. Or at least that was my opinion.

Now the other guy has a black belt in it, I have a blue and God love us but I have to say personally we really do not deserve them.

So I can do 5 or 6 kata's, amn't I great. Means nothing in real life as far as I'm concerned.

Now I did learn to do a lot of stuff quite well and I did get fit but I still don't believe I deserve anything but a 'late beginner-early intermediate' tag at very best.

Whats with the belt stuff ?

Money!
But in fairness, the belt system has been so long In place that people don't question it. It has become a thing that just comes part in parcel with martiall arts. Unfortunately, most systems concern themselves with material add ons than actual skill (the topic of my next fighter column!).
Some people like the belt system as it gives them a short term goal to achieve (important for children), some people see the belt as an actual representation of skill (which is wrong) and others simply don't question it as "it's always been there".

What you should have done was went to a system that doesn't promote the belt system. That way you wouldn't feel so let down by it. You're obviously a person not interested in the material add ons!

Congrats on the Blue belt BTW

pearsquasher

I'm glad to be in a martial arts where the modern belt (dan/kyu) system has been adopted but with the tradition of the old sytem - menkyo - in mind. I'm talking Japanese budo here and specifically Bujinkan.

The system is: A grade is between student and teacher nothing more, nothing less. I'm training 20 years in the art and have seen grades been given for all sorts of reasons - and they always work out for the best. When you find a teacher you wish to train with I assume its because you want to be as skillfull as them. If thats the case then you receive their grade no matter what the reason and accept that what they have in mind is in your best interest - otherwise you discontinue study with them.... very simple.

Of course corruption can occur with respect to power-mongering and money but I've never seen it in my own personal training across about a dozen dojo in 2 decades. Maybe I'm lucky, maybe I'm carefull who I train with.

Belt systems don't suck.... the people behind them clearly sometimes do :rolleyes:

jim o doom

Yeah I'm inclined to agree with pearsquasher - in Kenpo, you don't just learn kata - but also techniques, sets & then when you progress further, you have to also spar as part of your grading as well. Each belt containing a certain amount of things to learn, means you have a way to record your progression through the art - it also gives you something to works towards (which helps progression). When time for a grading comes up, you start working extra hard, polishing up what you have learned so you are & look good when the time comes!

beGood

The belt ranking system was created by Professor Jigoro Kano-shihan, the founder of Judo. It was created with the best of intentions but unfortunately it is open to abuse.

I suggest you work hard at your TKD and not to worry about the colour of the belt keeping your jacket closed.

TKD SC

Hi,

Yes I was going to also say wasn't it Kano Jiguro that started the belt system. This was around 1880's, and originally I think it was just white and black. It was in the early 1900's that colour belts were then introduced. Therefore, it's not exactly an ancient tradition!

Monosharp - yes, there is an emphasis on tkd patterns. Especially in gradings, where roughly 70% of the marks are weighted towards patterns. I would have thought in an average class though that you would probably spend at least 50% (if not more depending) of your time on sparring, drills, etc. and not on patterns. Not sure what Korea is like. Then again, even in Dublin clubs alone there is a huge difference from club to club on how much time is spent on patterns / fundamental movements vs sparring, pad work, conditioning side of things...

I suppose a belt means different things to different people. I think it can be a good thing to aim for, can keep people motivated to improve and keeps things moving on, new things to learn etc etc. However, depending on the style, one should acknowledge what exactly it is they are getting better at. As you say, you know 5/6 more patterns than you did a year ago but where's that going to get you!! I would have hoped that your sparring etc would have improved a good bit too, but if they are that kata focused then maybe not...

I think people can get caught up with the belt system too. It's 15 years since I started tkd. Due to various things (which I won't bore you with!) I took the scenic route and took 11 years to finally get my black belt (on my 3rd attempt too!). The way my mind was, I wasn't going to stop until I got the BB. For years at the beginning I didnt question patterns etc, I just kept trying to learn them as I went along (hand in this position, no another half centimetre this way, yes, that's it!!), caught up with the idea of the next grade and progressing. For years I didnt stop to think what skills I was progressing in! Luckily though, most of the clubs I've been in have always had a good sparring & competition element though.

At the BB stage, I failed twice because of my "sine wave" in patterns and "flexibility" etc. I never forgot a pattern but just wasn't doing them nicely basically! I did the self defence well enough and sparred well. It was annoying to see some people get the grade even though they could barely even punch in the sparring but they could do a mean pattern! Anyway 4 yrs on and I haven't gone for my 2nd dan (even though I know the patterns) and probably never will. I'm still glad I got the BB though and it does mean a lot to me even now. I trained hard for it and had to show a lot of resilience and mental strength to get it on the 3rd time. So it does mean a lot to me in my own way, but def not 'cos I can do x number of patterns!!

So, yeh, depending on where your head it at, don't worry about the colour of the belt. As Jon says, it's the actual skills versus the material add-ons. Looking fwd to that article Jon!
If you enjoy tkd, keep it up. If its really getting to you, then maybe switch to a non belt MA like MMA, or boxing, or one like Judo, BJJ where the gradings are sparring based rather than pattern based. Or keep doing tkd if you enjoy it and dont let the belt system let you down, take it for what it is and train hard yourself to improve the skills you think are important.

Anyway, rant over. Way too long a post!! Tired now and had much more in my head but forgotten it now, probably just as well!
Best of luck and let us know how you get on...

Maldini2706

The BJJ system seems to work better than TMAs, mainly because the instructors are far more stingy with their belts.

BobbyOLeary

The BJJ system seems to work better than TMAs, mainly because the instructors are far more stingy with their belts.

Hahaha thats brilliant! The BJJ belt system is more effective because it uses a objective measurement and applies its standards consistently (well it seems to in Ireland at least), its got nothing to do with stinginess.

Maldini2706

BobbyOLeary wrote: »

Hahaha thats brilliant! The BJJ belt system is more effective because it uses a objective measurement and applies its standards consistently (well it seems to in Ireland at least), its got nothing to do with stinginess.

My use of the phrase "stingy" was purely colloquial mate. My point was that BJJ belts aren't given until they're truly deserved because if they are the instructor loses credibility when their students are consistently destroyed in competition, so the instructors are more "stingy"

BobbyOLeary

My use of the phrase "stingy" was purely colloquial mate. My point was that BJJ belts aren't given until they're truly deserved because if they are the instructor loses credibility when their students are consistently destroyed in competition, so the instructors are more "stingy"

Cool

Ug Lee

Would there ever be a situation in BJJ where students are held back so that they do better in competitions. For example someone who should be a purple belt is kept at blue belt for a period so that they do very well against a real blue belt in a competition and makes the instructor/school/organisation look good?

Kind of like giving a false handicap when playing golf so that you do better.

Nothingcompares

yeah sandbagging happens from time to time. some coaches use competitions as a method for promoting their students, if you win the blue belt division you might get your purple as a result. no grading system is perfect, none can be taken out of context. There are blue belts and there are blue belt standards they're usually the same people but not always.

Clive

Ug Lee wrote: »

Would there ever be a situation in BJJ where students are held back so that they do better in competitions. For example someone who should be a purple belt is kept at blue belt for a period so that they do very well against a real blue belt in a competition and makes the instructor/school/organisation look good?

Kind of like giving a false handicap when playing golf so that you do better.

It's very common in Brazil, but not really here.

ColinJennings

monosharp wrote: »

Now I did learn to do a lot of stuff quite well and I did get fit but I still don't believe I deserve anything but a 'late beginner-early intermediate' tag at very best.

Thats what a blue belt is. It is when you are getting slightly competent. You know only about 20 attacks and 20 blocks at that stage. Thats nothing! I'm sure a BJJ blue belt knows 100s of locks, holds etc

From then until your first degree black belt (which is still considdered to be a beginner stage if you believe Gen Choi) you learn more techniques and more importantly you learn to apply all the tecnhiques you have learned in a nautral way, rather than having to consciously think of each technique and its application.

I feel the belts are an incentive system. Something to push you along and give you something to work toward. If you think a blue belt is good, go compete and see what level other blue belts are at.

deegs

I think belts / ranks from instructors are kinda pointless. A peer (accredited) reviewed grading and award of belt title, is a far better indication of level.

Jason Mc

I like the judo belt system. You have to fight to get your belt and you have to pass a theory test as well.

WolfForager

Belt systems are great! If your happy to show everyone you can do this and that pattern.. However in a tournament they don't mean a monkeys ass.

They are the perfect system for showing people what level you are in your movements and theory, however i think a different system should be adopted for sparring. Too many times have i seen a 2nd or 3rd dan go out against a newly appointed 1st degree and see the higher dna getting his ass kicked. Thus is my reasoning behind a new system. Don't ask me what this system should be because i really wouldn't know which way to go about it, POSSIBLY a points ranking system, ie. a fight:win ratio.

yomchi

It's called being seeded, or ranked and you're right especially in the Taekwon-Do circuit. It's not great. In kickboxing you have the novice, intermediate and advanced sections all worked out from your ring experience rather than actual belt, as the belt signifies nothing really, only how long you've been training and how many patterns you know.

j walsh

In my humble opinion most people take up Martial Arts to improve their fighting ability and i think that one of the fairest systems is Judo for this,
as i've seen some really bad fighters who are black belts.
But there's a lot of people who aren't interested in fighting at all and thats the two sides to martial arts,
I've seen some technically amazing people who aren't good fighters but i'd still have to take my hat to them "their kicking and kata's or forms are brilliant".

Niall Keane

"In my humble opinion most people take up Martial Arts to improve their fighting ability"

Not in mine, I did, have fought, and train fighters. In my opinion the vast majority of people in martial arts get involved to "be able to say" that they can fight. They hang out and tell people about the fighters in their systems and gyms, and such fighters achievements. I.e. look at him I do what he does therefore I'm a badass too.
Take tai chi chuan, I can state that 99.99% of Tai Chi "players" have no idea of how to fight. Whole brands of tai chi exist with pajama wearing masters etc. where no one can fight. A lot of these other sub-styles intensely dislike practical tai chi chuan because of its emphasis on the martial. Yet, and here is the thing I have heard and read articles by these other styles, where, when they have been questioned by others as to tai chi's martial effectiveness they point in the direction of the achievements of fighters from our style. I.e. using the - I do what they do, so I can kick your ass argument.
Fact is they don't do anything recognizable to what we do. Even with in my classes, people drop down to learn the art based on the reputation, but out of every 10 people that come through the door, 2 might stay longer than six months before they give up, due to the demands of the training. But I only train fighters, as I don't rely on students as my income.
And therein lies the point, it is financial suicide to teach martial arts to solely train fighters. To finance a gym, you cannot afford for 8 out of 10 to give up.
Take the Vos Gym it has fighter and public training times and facilities. If you go there as Joe Public you will not be sparing with Hoost, you won't even meet the fighters. You will not be training to the level they require. In effect you would be going to a standard kickboxing fitness gym with rights to the Vos brand name. And be able to tell the lads down the pub, that you do train and spar with Hoost, and knocked him out last week....but in fairness that was a lucky shot.
So belts exist to allow average students to map their progression, fight records exist for those with the time to compete and do the required level of training (which is it has to be acknowledged is a luxury).

Martin25

In JKD we don't have belts but do have rank if someone wants it. It depends on what you want to do. I have no problem either way as long as it is earned with good training and a positive atttitude and not bought.