Vehicle records and regs which are "not found" in the cartell.ie database

BrianD3

It seems to be common knowledge here that the Irish vehicle database was computerised in 1993 and any vehicle that was scrapped or untaxed when the switchover occured was not automatically transferred to the computerised database.

Presumably if you had your car taxed in 1992, left it untaxed for a year and then tried to retax it in 1994 it would have been entered in the database as an additional entry then?

Year later, cartell.ie acquires the data but loads of older registrations come up as "not found" presumably because of the holes in the computerised system.

First of all, is my understanding correct? Does anyone know for sure? 1993 seems extremely late to start computerising vehicle records, we can't have been that antiquated surely

Was the VRO formed in 1993? pre 1993 how was the system administered - was there a central (paper) database of all registrations or did each county council administer its own registrations.

I wonder if there are any paper records of the "lost" registrations sitting in county council basements or some central repository

carchaeologist

Seems 93 is the general concensus,did it become centalised in shannon around then,or am i mistaken?In my own case i have a beetle chassis that was last taxed in mid 1992(JZX148),i have the last tax disc,and it doesnt show on cartell.
The old mans jetta(81KY110)was scrapped,and the book sent back to the tax office in 96,yet its still listed on cartell.
A car that was retaxed afterwards will presumably show alright as it will be back in the system.
I reckon the reason untaxed cars at the time were left out is because it was less typing for the people entering the info into the computer.There would have been loads of useless entries. As an example,from RZX1 to RZX350,theres only 49 vehicles(mainly tractors) listed.Think of the time saved over all the registration variations entering only entries that were valid.If a number turned up after the system was active it was easy to amend the listing then.
Or am i completly missing the point!?:PAny arguments welcome!

Max_Damage

Sure my parent's '82 Ford Escort (263 PZU) is still listed on Cartell, and that was scrapped in June 1993.

carchaeologist

pre 1993 how was the system administered - was there a central (paper) database of all registrations or did each county council administer its own registrations.

I think each county council did,all on paper presumably?

I wonder if there are any paper records of the "lost" registrations sitting in county council basements or some central repository

Id like to have a look in there if there is!!

BrianD3

Things would be clearer if cartell were to do another free promotion. When the site was launched, for the first day or so, the 2 star report (which gives info on vehicle status and tax liability dates) was free. I went on a frenzy entering as many regsitrations as I could to see what came up. I think a few others on this forum did the same and unsurprisingly the site crashed several times

I seem to remember that if I entered a reg I'd either get
"not found"
or, if the reg was found, the tax liability would be mid nineties or later. Even vehicles that were officially scrapped/destroyed in mid nineties or later came up.

At the time I was not aware that 1993 had any significance so didn't keep very close eye on the tax liability dates that were coming up

Now obviously I don't know anything about the regs that came up as "not found" as nothing at all came up for them

Did anyone notice any cars coming up as "found" with a tax liability of pre 1993?

carchaeologist

Slightly off topic,but the tax office wont tell me who the first three owners of my beetle were(i have a replacement book).I went in twice to two different people and they both said they couldnt disclose that info,though if i had the original book the owners name would have been in that anyway so i dont see why they cant tell me.Does anyone have any idea how i can find out where its been?

Max_Damage

How come you don't have the original book? My Micra has the original log book and it has all the previous owners listed in it. (I think the log book was changed in 1993 if I'm not mistaken).

BrianD3

carchaeologist wrote: »

Slightly off topic,but the tax office wont tell me who the first three owners of my beetle were(i have a replacement book).I went in twice to two different people and they both said they couldnt disclose that info,though if i had the original book the owners name would have been in that anyway so i dont see why they cant tell me.Does anyone have any idea how i can find out where its been?

I don't know how you'd find that out but if the tax office were to say "we have the data but can't disclose it" that is interesting - because it means that they still have access to (maybe paper?) records for cars that don't appear on cartell.

(I'm presuming here that you are talking about your Beetle that hasn't been taxed since 92 and doesn't appear on cartell)

carchaeologist

Max_Damage wrote: »

How come you don't have the original book? My Micra has the original log book and it has all the previous owners listed in it. (I think the log book was changed in 1993 if I'm not mistaken).

Dont know what happened to the original book,it was given a replacement around 8 years ago,and listed as taxed only once on it,im curious as to why it was taxed just th once,maybe it was done online afterwards.The capri has a replacement too as the previous owner lost it.Its a small thing,but its nice to have the original,the datsuns is:)
The tax book died in 1993 alright,they changed to the form type then

carchaeologist

BrianD3 wrote: »

I don't know how you'd find that out but if the tax office were to say "we have the data but can't disclose it" that is interesting - because it means that they still have access to (maybe paper?) records for cars that don't appear on cartell.

(I'm presuming here that you are talking about your Beetle that hasn't been taxed since 92 and doesn't appear on cartell)

No,my latest project,its actually still taxed till next june..:):p
I got the impression they had the info on the computer when i asked,but couldnt tell me for some reason.

Max_Damage

^ When was the '86 Corsa last registered just as a mater of interest?

VolvoMan

BrianD3 wrote: »

I seem to remember that if I entered a reg I'd either get
"not found"
or, if the reg was found, the tax liability would be mid nineties or later. Even vehicles that were officially scrapped/destroyed in mid nineties or later came up.

I think it was only in recent years that you had to get a certificate of destruction. I did a check on our '93 Volvo 850 that we had a few years ago and a little red box came up at the end saying that the car had been destroyed/disposed of. Needless to say it put a lump in my throat to find out that it was no longer around as it held many memories, including the day I watched the new owner drive it off in to the distance.:(

carchaeologist

Max_Damage wrote: »

^ When was the '86 Corsa last registered just as a mater of interest?

2004 IIRC,i must get that running one of the days actually!

BrianD3

VolvoMan wrote: »

I think it was only in recent years that you had to get a certificate of destruction. I did a check on our '93 Volvo 850 that we had a few years ago and a little red box came up at the end saying that the car had been destroyed/disposed of. Needless to say it put a lump in my throat to find out that it was no longer around as it held many memories, including the day I watched the new owner drive it off in to the distance.:(

Me too. When cartell was free I checked around 35 years worth of the family's cars. Only some recent ones 8 years old or less are still around. The rest are either "not found", have tax expired for many years (i.e very likely scrapped) or have status
"This Vehicle is recorded as SCRAPPED VEHICLE DESTROYED on our roads"


The ones that have that status met their end in the 1995-97 period, no prizes for guessing what was happening at that time.....

Max_Damage

Scrapeage scheme, That's what got a lot of original Irish-reg. cars of the road.

carchaeologist

Max_Damage wrote: »

Scrapeage scheme, That's what got a lot of original Irish-reg. cars of the road.

As well as a lot of very good straight cars that shouldnt have been...:mad:

unkel

The scrappage scheme prevented a huge embarrassment for the government just before the EU was going to force this country to use mandatory car testing. Sure some good cars were scrapped, but a lot of bangers were taken off the roads too. It is likely lives were saved because of the scrappage scheme.

Let's not be too nostalgic here

carchaeologist

unkel wrote: »

The scrappage scheme prevented a huge embarrassment for the government just before the EU was going to force this country to use mandatory car testing. Sure some good cars were scrapped, but a lot of bangers were taken off the roads too. It is likely lives were saved because of the scrappage scheme.

Let's not be too nostalgic here

A fair point,but i wonder did the scrappage scheme/NCT test make a big difference to the amount killed on the road in the years they were introduced,does anyone have figures for that?

How do you mean it prevented a huge embarrasment for the government,in what way?The NCT would have gotten rid of the bangers anyway a few years later?Alot of people got rid of their cars before the NCT was introduced anyway in fear that they wouldnt pass.

BrianD3

Over 60,000 cars were lost to the scrappage scheme which ran from 1995-1997. Obviously there would have been natural wastage anyway even with no scrappage scheme. Hard to say how many extra cars were scrapped because of the existence of the scheme. Also, there would have been natural wastage in addition to the 60,000 eg scrapping of cars which were <10 years old at the time.

The NCT did result in some potential classics going to the crusher however I'd say the numbers were less significant than those for the scrappage scheme. However I know of some decent cars scrapped before the NCT even came in as people got paranoid about the test.

I reckon that it would have been a bad political decision to have introduced the NCT without first introducing the scrappage. Imagine the outcry as owners of ould bangers were "put off the road" by the NCT. Having the scrappage a few year previously softened the impact considerably.

Max_Damage

Another thing that alot of people forget is that leaded petrol was banned in this country (and the rest of the EU) in 2000. That would have been another contributing factor in the scrapping of older cars that ran on leaded petrol. I guess many owners wouldn't want to pay a few hunderd pounds at the time to get the engine converted to unleaded.

BrianD3

The Celtic Tiger/increased prosperity would also have been a factor, people developed a more throwaway attitude to everything resulting in cars which still had life left in them being scrapped.

The other day I was reminded that Fiat used to be the 2nd best selling make in Ireland (after Ford IIRC) Nowadays Fiat isn't even in the top ten manufacturers, how times have changed.

Bitten & Hisses

carchaeologist wrote: »

Alot of people got rid of their cars before the NCT was introduced anyway in fear that they wouldnt pass.

Needlessly so in a lot of cases. I have mixed feelings about the scrappage scheme. I got rid of some woeful deathtraps like a neighbour's Peugeot 305 which was almost held together with sellotape, but another neighbour scrapped a mintier than minty 1982 petrol Jetta.
The paranoia about the NCT was just mad. People scrapped perfectly good cars out of fear, even though the fail/advisory system in the early years cushioned the blow significantly.

carchaeologist

Bitten & Hisses wrote: »

Needlessly so in a lot of cases. I have mixed feelings about the scrappage scheme. I got rid of some woeful deathtraps like a neighbour's Peugeot 305 which was almost held together with sellotape, but another neighbour scrapped a mintier than minty 1982 petrol Jetta.
The paranoia about the NCT was just mad. People scrapped perfectly good cars out of fear, even though the fail/advisory system in the early years cushioned the blow significantly.

My sentiments exactly..That jetta wasnt a green one was it?

L1011

BrianD3 wrote: »

The other day I was reminded that Fiat used to be the 2nd best selling make in Ireland (after Ford IIRC) Nowadays Fiat isn't even in the top ten manufacturers, how times have changed.

Prior to July 08 they weren't in the top TWENTY - that might have changed as they got a bounce from the VRT rates.

Systematic mismanagment from the top, poor dealers, not holding on to dealers - or not holding on to the good ones - and a reputation that won't shift seem to be the problem. You don't offer 5 year/unlimited warranties if cars break down but people don't seem to realise that.

VolvoMan

MYOB wrote: »

Systematic mismanagment from the top, poor dealers, not holding on to dealers - or not holding on to the good ones - and a reputation that won't shift seem to be the problem. You don't offer 5 year/unlimited warranties if cars break down but people don't seem to realise that.

That's one thing I've noticed. For a mass production car manufacturer they have a tiny dealer network here and any dealers they have their showrooms are in sh1te. We needed a job done on the Punto and I couldn't think of anyone half reputable to take it to.

FIAT Ireland really does need a massive shakeup as regarding their dealer network. Just think of how many sales they are missing out on in this current climate when the only cars that are selling are small cars like the Panda and 500.

L1011

I've found a dealer that goes a good job - for me anyway - but I've even read bad stuff about them on other sites! Its only a recent enough franchise (2004 for cars, had vans beforehand), whole family drives Fiats and gets them serviced there and I bought my current one there...

VolvoMan

MYOB wrote: »

I've found a dealer that goes a good job - for me anyway - but I've even read bad stuff about them on other sites! Its only a recent enough franchise (2004 for cars, had vans beforehand), whole family drives Fiats and gets them serviced there and I bought my current one there...

Well I can't think of any FIAT dealers in Dublin besides Ambrose Glass, Donohoes or Michael Barrable. About 3 years ago there were a few more but most of them have either given up the franchise or went out of business.

L1011

Airton Motors, Tallaght
Tractamators, Blanchardstown (these have been around long enough to have sold cars that might be considered 'classics' soon enough and all)

Think we've managed to derail this topic completely!