Mental Health Act Training in AGS

sam34

Hi folks,

i'm just wondering what sort of training ye get in the mental health act?

as a psychiatrist, i often see patients brought in by the gardai for a variety of reasons, with a view to involuntary admission.

it varies greatly from garda to garda whether they have the appropriate forms completed.

a good few times, gardai have said to me that they dont know which ones to fill in, or they dont know what to do after making the application... sometimes they bring the patient straight to the psych ward without getting a gp recommendation.

other cops have every t crossed and every i dotted on the forms.

i found the training provided by the mental health commission to doctors to be quite poor, and im just wondering if they or anyone else provided adequate training to members of AGS?

FGR

Much the same, sadly. There's so much involved in our work that it's difficult to recall every single requirement for a particular task.

The last instance I was required to bring someone in for GP assessment I ensured that I checked, double checked with Sgt and eventually with the GP himself as to what forms he would require. Utilising powers under the Mental Health Act is exceptionally serious business and I don't think enough training is provided. It seems, like the Ample Probe course; a quick five minute dash is provided to members to avoid liability.

That is, IMO.

sam34

ForegoneReality wrote: »

Much the same, sadly. There's so much involved in our work that it's difficult to recall every single requirement for a particular task.

The last instance I was required to bring someone in for GP assessment I ensured that I checked, double checked with Sgt and eventually with the GP himself as to what forms he would require. Utilising powers under the Mental Health Act is exceptionally serious business and I don't think enough training is provided. It seems, like the Ample Probe course; a quick five minute dash is provided to members to avoid liability.

That is, IMO.

yeah, ive worked in many psych units in different counties, and it varies from place to place, even from station to station. there are so many forms and particulars in that new act, i find it quite ahrd keep on top of it myself, so i can only imagine what its like for ye guys, one of many acts!

Eru

sam34 wrote: »

yeah, ive worked in many psych units in different counties, and it varies from place to place, even from station to station. there are so many forms and particulars in that new act, i find it quite ahrd keep on top of it myself, so i can only imagine what its like for ye guys, one of many acts!

You can train train train but like everything, its only when you have to deal with a real situation and make the mistakes that it really sticks. Chances are the ones getting it right have been there and made the mistakes before.

Bang Bang

There is no training on this subject given to Ambulance crews in Ireland. Even since the change from the "Pink" form to the new multi form format there has been no familiarisation. There are many times when an Ambulance crew along with the Gardai arrive at someones house only to be handed the relevent forms by a family member, leaving both the Paramedics and Garda members to figure out if all is in order.
The signatory doctor often leaves the scene well before these crews arrive.

FGR

Bang Bang wrote: »

The signatory doctor often leaves the scene well before these crews arrive.

Yes. This!

sam34

Bang Bang wrote: »

... leaving both the Paramedics and Garda members to figure out if all is in order.
The signatory doctor often leaves the scene well before these crews arrive.

i think half the problem is that the GP's havent gotten much training on it either, and they dont know what forms to use, or the finer details that need to be correct... i'd say thats one big reason why they scarper!

recently ive even seen a gp use an old pink form (y'know, the ones that have been obsolete for more than 2 yrs..)

sometimes, you'll find that when someone is brought in, the forms are incorrect for some reason, frequently the timings might be out of synch, and thats a huge nightmare for the psych staff. if you use the forms anyway, the tribunal will come along and discharge the patient as they deem the detention was illegal. so what do you do? if you let the patient walk out, you are potentially letting a very sick person out, and that goes against all instincts and the patients best interests. if you hold onto them (under "common law") while youre getting new forms correctly made out, there can be hassle carrying this out in practice - eg the gardai and gp involved may be gone off duty and thus you have no applicant....

NIGHTMARE!

the new act has made things very difficult for psychiatrists.
there are many flaws in the act, and many many grey areas

deadwood

Unfortuntely it has become a real "cover your ass" routine for everyone concerned.

I have experienced the old and new systems. The old ways were a bit by the seat of your pants. The new system would make Winston Smith complain about bureaucracy.


I also think it's grossly inappropriate for people in these circumstances to be carted off in marked patrol cars by police with no real training in this area.

Traumadoc

I returned from abroad to the new laws, I have tried to get training from the mental health comission and they have been less than helpful ( to put it mildly)

sam34

Traumadoc wrote: »

I returned from abroad to the new laws, I have tried to get training from the mental health comission and they have been less than helpful ( to put it mildly)

tell me about it!
any time we have queries about procedural stuff, and we ring the commission for advicce, they trot out the line "seek your own legal advice".
very helpful, thanks :rolleyes:
there have been so many changes to the act, and challenges and new rulings, they should really be running mandatory training updates, but afaik theres no plans for this.

Paulzx

sam34 wrote: »

recently ive even seen a gp use an old pink form (y'know, the ones that have been obsolete for more than 2 yrs..)

Never even knew there was a new system. I wasn't exactly up to speed on the old forms but had some experiences with them. Wouldn't have a clue now whats required if i get a patient in this situation

LadyMayBelle

Hi there, this is kinda off topic , but when I saw Mental health training I said I'd post. I know there is a certifiable elearning course on the mhcirl.ie website , it's about 15 hours to do, anyone know anything more about it? As a trainee I have been encouraged to to it. I know as Guards ye need a more official training but has anyone done this one online? (it's currently being updated or something)

Sorry this is in the wrong place, not sure where to put it.

Eru

Lads, seems to be a bit of a regular thing when it comes to health, etc. Lots of changes and lots of ass covering wittout really being realistic in in practice.

Anyone ever do the child first training? I applied, didnt get it but the guys that did it said it was useless.

then you have Juvenile prisoners and the new custody records, impossible to operate effectively under the new regime.

Is this across the board? The state simple covering its ass and leaving the actual ground forces in an impossible situation?

Bang Bang

Karlitosway1978 wrote: »

Lads, seems to be a bit of a regular thing when it comes to health, etc. Lots of changes and lots of ass covering wittout really being realistic in in practice.

Anyone ever do the child first training? I applied, didnt get it but the guys that did it said it was useless.

then you have Juvenile prisoners and the new custody records, impossible to operate effectively under the new regime.

Is this across the board? The state simple covering its ass and leaving the actual ground forces in an impossible situation?

The Ambulance service introduced a course on the recognition and treatment of child abuse cases along with the legal duties etc relating to such a case.

They (management) then sent NON operational officers (desk officers) on these course's. They don't respond to calls (only major incidents) so will rarely or never be responded to a child call.
Another classic ass covering job and complete waste of money as the crews on the street never got the opportunity to do this course and it is they who respond to such calls.

flyton5

Recently the Central Mental Hospital provided a 5week course for training sergeants in DMR South with a view to introducing a better understanding of people suffering from mental health issues.....seems to be a fairly run course from what i've heard and there are plans to bring more and more in-service trainers onto the next few courses....should be interesting to see what affect it has on members of AGS....

Odysseus

Karlitosway1978 wrote: »

Anyone ever do the child first training? I applied, didnt get it but the guys that did it said it was useless.

Save you CPD days for something better mate, I have been on some ****e training days over the years, but I really doubt you would learn anything here that you didn't already know. Its all well and good having mandatory reporting but if the support services aren't there it means a lot slip through the net, I sure you see this often enough yourself.