Novice Cross Country

brutes

Anyone running this? Am going up to make up the numbers ...think ill need a jet engine at the start if last year is anything to go by, amazingly fast ...

Who would be favourites for the race??, Ive heard rumours that Ballyhaise is a fairly rough course, is this true..

cfitz

brutes wrote: »

Anyone running this? Am going up to make up the numbers ...think ill need a jet engine at the start if last year is anything to go by, amazingly fast ...

Who would be favourites for the race??, Ive heard rumours that Ballyhaise is a fairly rough course, is this true..

I ran in Ballyhaise about 10 years ago. The field was like a mini-mountain, it had a peak in the centre! It was really muddy. I wasn't near the front at the start so I got covered in the spray of mud from the people in front, face, mouth, everywhere. It was really slippy, almost impossible to keep your balance, often times you were running on a slanted "surface". I lost a spike during the race too.

It was a great introduction to the All-Irelands

It's always difficult to know who the favourites for the Novice are coz anyone could turn up.

thirtyfoot

cfitz wrote: »

I ran in Ballyhaise about 10 years ago. The field was like a mini-mountain, it had a peak in the centre! It was really muddy. I wasn't near the front at the start so I got covered in the spray of mud from the people in front, face, mouth, everywhere. It was really slippy, almost impossible to keep your balance, often times you were running on a slanted "surface". I lost a spike during the race too.

.

I can remember running there too maybe 15 or so years ago and yes the slanted surface was a killer. It was sticky muck when I ran. I can vaguely remember there been a lake or pond that you run beside (is that right) on the loop out on the slanted surface and then when you negotiate the hill you loop back in on higher ground. Maybe I'm getting mixed up Catriona McKiernan ran that day and glided over the muck and sh*te.

cfitz

Tingle wrote: »

I can remember running there too maybe 15 or so years ago and yes the slanted surface was a killer. It was sticky muck when I ran. I can vaguely remember there been a lake or pond that you run beside (is that right) on the loop out on the slanted surface and then when you negotiate the hill you loop back in on higher ground. Maybe I'm getting mixed up Catriona McKiernan ran that day and glided over the muck and sh*te.

My memory of it is fairly vague. I don't remember a pond, but the rest sounds fairly similar to the course I ran on. The start in a bit of a hollow, so you started into a fairly big hill. After running around the edge of the field for a while you then turned into the middle of the field and went toward the top by doing two u-turns up the slanted surface. I could be missing some important parts though, the whole race sort of passed me by. Unless I'm mixing it up with another year,I think the Senior race was won by Seamus Power - a brilliant win, he kept falling off the pace and then catching up again.

Stupid_Private

Oh joy... I'm fairly sure I'll be going up for it. Sounds like it's going to be a laugh!

Racing Flat

Same course for all of us I suppose.

Will I have the luxury of a shower after the race? Or will it be like most years when I shiver all the way home on the bus, glad that I don't have to go as far as Donegal or West Cork?

tunney

Any ideas on the times the National novice XC kicks off this weekend?

Mens in particular.

Racing Flat

Thread below on this - might be merged?

Not really sure of who'll be there - seems to be a kind of quiet year for the Novice. Apparently Alan O'Brien won Dublin fairly handily, so he might be in with a shout?

Any young bucks coming up?

Any teams with a favourite tag?

Stupid_Private

tunney wrote: »

Any ideas on the times the National novice XC kicks off this weekend?

Mens in particular.

12.15 Girls U/13

12.25 Boys U/13

12.40 Girls U/15

12.50 Boys U/15

1.10pm Girls U/17

1.20pm Boys U/17

1.30pm Girls U/19

1.40pm Boys U/19

2.00pm Womens Novice

2.15pm Mens Novice

okidoki987

Is it going to be €10 admission per adult?

HaileGeb

Novice men
U19 Ian Ward
U17 Shane Qquinn
U15 Shane Fitzsimons/Ruairi Finnegan
U13

Novice Women
U19
U17 Joanne Mills
U15 Amy O'Donoghue
U13 Linda Conroy

Racing Flat

Anyone know how to get to Ballyhaise?

okidoki987

Google maps is your friend.
It's on the main Dublin Cavan road N3, go through Cavan and turn right onto the Cavan Road R212.
It's 98 kms from Ashbourne if that's any help.

Racing Flat

Directions, parking, course map etc here: http://web.mac.com/miriam.griffin/ANNALEE_AC/Welcome.html

6 1k laps for Novice Men by looks of it.

Racing Flat

Novice Men

1 Alan O'Brien
2 Barry Minnock

Boys U19 very close, ?Ian Ward won, but not sure.
Shane Quinn won U17 well.
I think Tara Jameson won.


Some accurate course descriptions above. Frozen for early races, ankle deep mud later on. Very heavy. Very tough!

thirtyfoot

Conditions were atrocious. Underfoot was very dangerous with the field full of cattle divits which when frozen were lethal. Also, 10-15 minutes walk for a bit of warmth for the younger kids after their race was not the best. Parking was a problem. Considering all that local organising cttee did well considering the conditions but questions must be asked how venues are picked for these champs.

Considering all that Alan O' Brien dominated the mens novice and once Barry Minnock couldn't lose him on the hill each of the 5 times he was always going to win.

The young lad from Mullingar was like cross-country running in motion over the muck, hills and frost.

helpisontheway

I think sometimes its more who will host the competitions rather than being picked by AAI as there is generally very little interest in hosting national competitions due to the work involved.
If the people in the above posts knew that the course was bad from previous experience then you would think AAI also knew but probably had no other choice.

Any full results anywhere yet?

cfitz

Tingle wrote: »

Conditions were atrocious. Underfoot was very dangerous with the field full of cattle divits which when frozen were lethal.

helpisontheway wrote: »

If the people in the above posts knew that the course was bad from previous experience then you would think AAI also knew but probably had no other choice.

I wasn't running myself, but I was pleasantly surprised by the course. Some of it was hard with frost but all in all it was ok. Much nicer than Rathdrum or Heywood for the Leinsters.

ss43

Tingle wrote: »

Conditions were atrocious. Underfoot was very dangerous with the field full of cattle divits which when frozen were lethal. Also, 10-15 minutes walk for a bit of warmth for the younger kids after their race was not the best. Parking was a problem. Considering all that local organising cttee did well considering the conditions but questions must be asked how venues are picked for these champs.

Considering all that Alan O' Brien dominated the mens novice and once Barry Minnock couldn't lose him on the hill each of the 5 times he was always going to win.

The young lad from Mullingar was like cross-country running in motion over the muck, hills and frost.

Was the course itself that bad? I walked it and didn't think it was bad enough to be called atrocious. I wouldn't have liked it myself but didn't think it was that unreasonable. The infield was pretty bad though. Did you run or did you hear athletes complaining? I didn't run so can't comment from experience but didn't hear any complaints or see any problems during the races.

The walk was a bit long but it's hard find an ideal venue. Luckily it didn't rain or it would have been really miserable.

O'Brien put a lot of distance between himself and Minnock once he left him - very impressive.

Having been near the finish area for the under 11 races I really wonder about the wisdom of having these races. A very high percentage of the under 11 girls were crying after the race. Plenty others looked traumatised. The same happened to a lesser extent in the boys' under11 and girls' under13 races also. What purpose is the race serving if most of the people running it are coming out miserable. I'm sure there was a few who had a good experience but I don't think they were the majority in the early races.

thirtyfoot

cfitz wrote: »

I wasn't running myself, but I was pleasantly surprised by the course. Some of it was hard with frost but all in all it was ok. Much nicer than Rathdrum or Heywood for the Leinsters.

I don't know, I walked it at 11.45 and the pock marks up and down the hills were lethal, lucky none of the younger kids didn't do any serious damage. I think the races did thaw it out and flatten much of it for the older runners.

CelticSpirit

it was pretty tough. It was that real heavy sticky mud and was quite thick in places. Hard work.

Regarding conditions, why complain...it's cross country for f$%k's sake!!

Quite a large number of kids sprained ankles etc and I think the medical crew were fairly busy. I saw one young fella gettin carried off in a stretcher with a neck brace on!! :eek:

VR46

Most dangerous course i've ever ran on. Fair play to anyone that didn't go over on their ankle at least once!!
It was well cut up by the novice men's race, a proper mud-fest the way xc should be

ChickenTikka

ss43 wrote: »

Having been near the finish area for the under 11 races I really wonder about the wisdom of having these races. A very high percentage of the under 11 girls were crying after the race. Plenty others looked traumatised. The same happened to a lesser extent in the boys' under11 and girls' under13 races also. What purpose is the race serving if most of the people running it are coming out miserable. I'm sure there was a few who had a good experience but I don't think they were the majority in the early races.

The course was rough enough for the younger races but didn't have the heavy muck that appeared as the day progressed. I think the frost from the morning kept it dryer for the first few races and then the constant pounding thawed the top surface and pounded it into muck.

I agree that its not the best experience for some of the younger kids. They don't understand the "its all about participation" piece and some coaches don't either. The distance is short for cross country at 800m for u11s and is practically a sprint for some. If you don't get out fast, you get blocked once the course narrowed. You have runners who did very well in their county competition due to smaller numbers in the race and no blockages. They go to the All-Irelands with false expectations of doing very well and these expectations come "unstuck in the mud". Its a pity that there is not some format of competition for the younger ages that rewards participation at this level. These kids did well in their county, qualified from their province, are all super runners - way ahead of their peers in school - yet come away in many cases with quite a negative experience from All-Ireland cross-country.

At least with track and field at National level, a young athlete will often have the satisfaction of getting a new PB. In cross-country you don't get that - the only measure of success seems to be the medal dangling around your neck on the way home.

Regarding the course, I think the host club did a super job. Why would any club volunteer to host a national cross country. Its probaby a real pain in the neck and involves loads of work on the same people who do all the work within their own club. So we should be very grateful to Annalee and if we think we can do better, then lets stick our hands up within our own club to host it next year.

Racing Flat

ChickenTikka wrote: »

Why would any club volunteer to host a national cross country. Its probaby a real pain in the neck and involves loads of work on the same people who do all the work within their own club.

Maybe all clubs should have to take turns. Annoys me how some clubs never do it.

No showers are the killer for me. You could have future Olympians running there, winning the U11s sitting freezing in a car all the way home. (Probably won't make the Games anyway as they'll be in a nice shower at a GAA ground next year instead of at a XC). We were talking about the lack of athletics facilities, in this regard, afterwards, and as someone pointed out, showers aren't athletics facilities, they're basic amenities...

Racing Flat

VR46 wrote: »

Most dangerous course i've ever ran on.

Certainly I never 'almost' went over on my ankles as many times, and I never saw as many people drop out - but that might have been more down to the heavy sticky deep mud on the hill rather than injuries (for the Novices anyway), but I thought it was quite a nice, albeit tough, course. The danger was purely due to the weather. Not many places in the country would have been much better today I'd say.

Clum

I ran the Novice Men's race. By that stage the course was well dug up and softened so it was just a hard slog, as you'd expect for cross country. But early in the day that ground was too hard for kids to run on. It was frozen solid and lethal in places. It took a few races to soften it up and unfortunately it was the younger ones who had to suffer the hard ground.

It's almost catch 22. Call off the younger age group races to avoid injuries, but then the ground doesn't get softened for the older age groups so nobody gets to run. Some sporting events around the country over the weekend were postponed due to frozen ground and I'd imagine a course inspection was carried out in Ballyhaise before the races began on Sunday and an official decision was made about giving the all clear...

I didn't mind the walk from the college to the course, but I wasn't bringing kids with me so no idea how it affected them.

Stupid_Private

I can only comment on the course for the men's novice as that's when I was going around. The course was perfect by that stage and was as "dangerous" as any other cross country out there. Tough mud at the ends and a fast middle section - I don't think I had an unstable step throughout. As was said above, it's cross country, what do you expect? I'm by and large crap at cross country but really felt comfortable on that course yesterday. It probably was tough on the earlier races but by the time the men's race was on there should be no complaints.

I ran a hell of a lot worse/tougher courses than that last year in the UK - none of which ever had showers afterwards. It seems to be the case that if a course is muddy the showers mysteriously are always out of order. That was the first XC race I've run in Ireland and I was well impressed by it. There was even free tea afterwards from the refreshments tent.

Besides shower's, what facilities do people expect? The walk from the registration to the course can't be an issue either, they were right beside each other. What more do people want?

thirtyfoot

Stupid_Private wrote: »

I can only comment on the course for the men's novice as that's when I was going around. The course was perfect by that stage and was as "dangerous" as any other cross country out there. Tough mud at the ends and a fast middle section - I don't think I had an unstable step throughout. As was said above, it's cross country, what do you expect? I'm by and large crap at cross country but really felt comfortable on that course yesterday. It probably was tough on the earlier races but by the time the men's race was on there should be no complaints.

I ran a hell of a lot worse/tougher courses than that last year in the UK - none of which ever had showers afterwards. It seems to be the case that if a course is muddy the showers mysteriously are always out of order. That was the first XC race I've run in Ireland and I was well impressed by it. There was even free tea afterwards from the refreshments tent.

Besides shower's, what facilities do people expect? The walk from the registration to the course can't be an issue either, they were right beside each other. What more do people want?

I think the general feeling from people you have negative feedback on the underfoot conditions and lack of facilities are in relation to the effects these had on the younger athletes from 10 years up. By and large the older athletes are there by choice and know what to expect but this is not the case for younger athletes. Yes its cross-country and yes its all about being tough and a war of attrition. But as mentioned by some posters there were sprained ankles and kids as young as 10 shivering and crying. This is not going to keep them and encourage their parents to keep them in the sport. Times have changed in Ireland and we need to change too (we are much softer now!!). If I had an 11 year old I wouldn't let them near cross-country based on what I saw yesterday and would probably bring them to the (God forbid!) RDS to watch Leinster Rugby or the local GAA ground to watch a game there. Maybe getting rid of the younger ages will make it better as the older ones can suck it up better. Question on that, has U11 always been on the card at all-ireland level?

tunney

Any results for this yet?

Stupid_Private

tunney wrote: »

Any results for this yet?

How nowhere has the results for this is beyond me - they still hadn't posted the mens and womens results by the time we left. The only site with some form of indication that they do exist somewhere is Clonliffe's who have the positions for each of their athletes posted.

Torres

Stupid_Private wrote: »

The only site with some form of indication that they do exist somewhere is Clonliffe's who have the positions for each of their athletes posted.

That was just an estimated count by a spectator! Fingers crossed I'll have done a little better than that... Novice Women's were just finished when we left at 4.00.

Peterx

Ran in the novice mens, good race, conditions were tough but the same for everyone. We were lucky with the weather and the organisers did a good job with a poor location, the races i saw started pretty much on time.
As for the frozen ground that would have been the case wherever it was run yesterday but I can easily see how so many turned their ankles before it softened up.
The finish to the u19 boys race was pure class, very exciting and a close run thing.
Didn't see the finish of my race but heard it on the commentary which was handy as I had lost count of the laps and was dreading the possibility I'd another one to go
There were showers but they flooded after a while apparently. The college canteen had plenty of hot soup and tea at a very reasonable price.

CelticSpirit

The results are up on the aai website.

bazman

Results: http://www.athleticsireland.ie/content/?page_id=160

The big problem for me in relation to race organising was that there there appeared to be very little effort put into the course. It was obviously a farmers field where cattle were grazing recently. Due to the freezing conditions this resulted in huge ankle breaking divots. Thankfully for the novice races this was largely broken up and turned into mud, although with so many possibly lines to take there were still areas rock hard and dangerous. It was hard enough to break 2 of my 15mm spikes! I can't believe the underage groups were allowed race to be honest - a bad decision in my book. The field should have been rolled and gritted in preparation for a national championship in my opinion ...

My only other complaint in terms of the organisation would be the parking - with the narrow roads it wasn't ideal for handling a large crowd. Otherwise it was pretty good I felt - good canteen, large registration area, good changing and shower facilities (unfortunate that they flooded out).

In terms of the novice mens race, it was a slow pace - I seemed to be the only one willing the push the pace a little, everyone else happy to just sit. It needed a few mad men racing like it was only a 3k race : ) Oh, & by the way it was 6.5k, not 6k - that explains the times ...

Was disappointed that there was no real hill on the course? There was talk of a mini-mountain, but to be honest it was a very flat course - the mud was what made it slow. A much easier course than Avondale or Heywood, but yet pace was slower than both those races. That was partly due to mud, but more so due to leaders running cautiously.

My lap times were (measured from finish junction):
start 00:02:28
lap 1 00:06:14 00:03:46
lap 2 00:10:02 00:03:48
lap 3 00:14:02 00:04:00
lap 4 00:18:00 00:03:58
lap 5 00:21:49 00:03:49
finish 00:22:46

or for actual pace: http://trail.motionbased.com/trail/player/7262362

Tactically I got things a little wrong - probably should have sit back on laps 1&2 and pushed really hard on laps 3&4, instead it was almost the other way around. As Tingle has said, once Alan O'Brien was with leaders going into last lap he was always most likely to win and he did finish very well. Still, delighted with my run - still progressing. Was a good turnaround for me considering I was behind a few of the top 10 in the inter-counties only 2 weeks ago ... onwards and upwards for the intermediate : ) Little did I think that I'd be capable of a silver after running my first novice about 4 years ago, finishing 55th I think : )

cfitz

Congrats on the medal. Everyone did look to be running fairly cautious considering the National Novice can sometimes be a cavalry charge early on. The mini-mountain that I had been warning people about was on a field on the other side of the road. Was raging to miss the race, my best finish is 27th and I think if I hadn't been injured I would have been closer to top 15 on Sunday.

brutes

Well done Bazman , watched it from the sidelines with a few cracked ribs, and was glad to miss it, course looked like cross country on ice the way lads were dancing on the mud/hard ground , only the top ten looked any way into a rhythm.
It was a good race out front, probably not as stacked thru the field with talent as last year, as it seemed most of the speedy young lads ran Tramore last week, and there were big gaps from lap 4 on. Thats a super improvement , would love to be able to make that kind of step up, all the mountain runs is that the key do you think??
Had heard bad vibes about the course and set up, but it wasnt too bad spectator wise, free food always good, but then I wasnt running and missed the younger races..

Racing Flat

Well done bazman. A great run. The Intermediates might suit you better being a bit longer. Being in Santry, conditions 2 (or ?3) years ago there were more muddy than Sunday, so could be another slow one. Just a question bazman - did you stop your watch every lap? Or does it do it automatically? I've thrown away the watch for cross country, try to focus on breathing etc. rather than lap times, but it would be nice to know afterwards how I went...

80s for me after being in 130's and 140's previously, so happy with that. Only 123 finishers this year though, compared to 150-160 or so last few years - I wonder how many started? Seemed to be a fair few drop outs. A minute faster and I'd be top 50, so that's next years goal.

Clum

Racing Flat wrote: »

I've thrown away the watch for cross country

I'm pretty bad for loosing count of laps on these types of courses (I know there was only 6 of them but still...) so I used my watch to keep track of the laps, working in multiples of approx 4 minutes per lap. Came in handy too at the start of lap 5 when I didn't know if it was lap 4, 5 or 6!

Looking at my result I actually ran marathon pace over the 6k (or 6.5k)...shows how slow it is in the mud.

bazman

Pity it wasn't in the mountain field so : ) Maybe it was a last minute decision to change?

Regarding my improvements - it purely down to training - & for me it quantity over quality at this time of year. The quality will begin in april for me. 4 years ago I only averaged 25mpw during winter, 3 years ago big jump to about 50mpw - since then smaller jumps to about 60mpw last year and this year 70-75mpw. For me this seems to be about optimum - I've tried a 90mile week, but think I would break down in no time. One 25-40min tempo and 1 interval (normally 6-10 x 1k reps) per week - that's about it : ) Not so good at core / stretching / strength work. Obviously mountain running has given me strength, but I no longer train in the mountains - just the odd race here and there : ) I would recommend at least one hill run every week or 2, but I just haven't got around to it. Eamonn Coughlans book is worth a read - he did a lot of miles and he was focusing on the mile - for me that says it all.

Re lap times - I just switched on my garmin 405 - never look at watch during cross country race for click lap button, as it's about racing, not timing. It's just good to analyse afterwards - I got lap times by using the player (link above).

Racing Flat

55th to 2nd is phenomenal. There's hope for us all!

bazman

Found those old results - I was actually 65th back in 2005 : )
http://www.athleticsireland.ie/XCC_NOV/MEN/05XCCIND.HTM

I also ran in 2004 it seems - hardly remember that one - I was 112th!

60 seconds improvement can get you 40 places, so there's hope for hope for anyone - particularly people with some natural speed, but lacking endurance.

CelticSpirit

Little did I think that I'd be capable of a silver after running my first novice about 4 years ago, finishing 55th I think : )[/quote]

I finished 55th on Sunday. Maybe it's a sign of things to come for me!

T runner

bazman wrote: »

Found those old results - I was actually 65th back in 2005 : )
http://www.athleticsireland.ie/XCC_NOV/MEN/05XCCIND.HTM

I also ran in 2004 it seems - hardly remember that one - I was 112th!

60 seconds improvement can get you 40 places, so there's hope for hope for anyone - particularly people with some natural speed, but lacking endurance.

Well done Bazman, super run on Sunday!

I think I remember that one (2004). Bazman, were you the guy with the hamburger in his mouth pinning on his number when the gun went off?

Went out a bit fast myself that day. Found a nice quick line along a fence. Was actually leading after 150m. Remember being stampeded by the entire field shortly after. Dont think I made the top 150: was gutted after the promising start.

mrak

Awesome running bazman - an improvement of 64 places.

I was 89th in 2005 in athlone wasn't it? That was my last one before this. I still remember the hill into the trees that day. I was 29th on Sunday, an improvement of 60 places from 2005 but my heart wasn't in it - I think I ran poorly - just didn't give a sh1t on the day and was going throuigh motions. The sticky mud didn't really suit me - you'd have to be feeling up for it.

Nowso

Good win 4 Shane Fitzsimons winning again