Integrated/automatic or not??

horseflesh

We're getting a new kitchen, and at the moment have factored in an integrated coffee machine (Siemens).
I'm having second thoughts though.
Skimming over some threads here there doesn't seem to be a lot of enthusiasm for integrated machines.
Also it takes up quite a lot of cupboard space and is very pricey (I think about €1400)

So, what are my options?
I'm not a "technical" coffee expert, but do love a nice cup (particularly an excellent espresso).

Gran Hermano

I'd avoid integrated. They are a crazy price for what you get.
For similar money you'll easily get both a good and stylish
grinder and separate espresso machine.

horseflesh

Gran Hermano wrote: »

I'd avoid integrated. They are a crazy price for what you get.
For similar money you'll easily get both a good and stylish
grinder and separate espresso machine.

That's what I've been thinking.
Sure, the convenience would be handy, but for the outrageous price and the quality (presuming it's not quite as good as a stand alone machine) I'm going off the idea.

So, what do I need?
And is it hard work??

Gran Hermano

I'd recommend the Gaggia Classic with an Iberital MC2

http://www.happydonkey.co.uk/iberitalmc2.html


or the Rancilio Silvia / Rocky

http://www.ristrettocoffee.com/shop/Scripts/prodView.asp?idproduct=25


What type of coffee drinks are you looking for? Espresso, latte, etc..
How do see yourself using it?

RE*AC*TOR

I agree with Gran Hermano - these machines typically aren't great. They look great, but they don't deliver.

With regards to what you SHOULD get, it depends on what you like to drink.

Number one is a decent grinder, this makes everything else possible.

If you like a long black coffee as your preffered drink, maybe an espresso machine is not needed, instead some manner of filter maker.

If espresso / americano is your main drink, then a single boiler machine could be a good choice (Gaggia Classic <<< Rancilio Silvia <<< Isomac Zaffiro).

If you plan on doing a lot of milk drinks, cappas and lattés, then a HX (Expobar Pulser <<< Bezzera BZ07 <<< Quickmill Andreja Premium) or Dual Boiler (Expobar Brewtus II <<< La Spaz Vivaldi <<< Dalla Corte Mini <<< Izzo Alex Duetto) machine would make sense. Although a budget of €1400 more or less precludes a dual boiler and a decent grinder.

Of course then aesthetics are an issue for many as well, so size, and general appearance come into play.

horseflesh

Gran Hermano wrote: »

I'd recommend the Gaggia Classic with an Iberital MC2

http://www.happydonkey.co.uk/iberitalmc2.html


or the Rancilio Silvia / Rocky

http://www.ristrettocoffee.com/shop/Scripts/prodView.asp?idproduct=25


What type of coffee drinks are you looking for? Espresso, latte, etc..
How do see yourself using it?

Thanks, I'll have a look into them.
Is there a difference in the quality between an automatic & manual grinder?
It won't be working 24/7. I'd probably have an espresso (or 2, LOL) first thing in the morning, wife maybe a couple of cups during the day, maybe one or two more between us in the evening.
She like mocha (I know that's probably sacrilage, LOL).

How much time/work does it take to make a cup, start to finish?

Sorry for all the questions, if it sounds like I don't have much of a clue, it's probably because I don't

horseflesh

RE*AC*TOR wrote: »

I agree with Gran Hermano - these machines typically aren't great. They look great, but they don't deliver.

With regards to what you SHOULD get, it depends on what you like to drink.

Number one is a decent grinder, this makes everything else possible.

If you like a long black coffee as your preffered drink, maybe an espresso machine is not needed, instead some manner of filter maker.

If espresso / americano is your main drink, then a single boiler machine could be a good choice (Gaggia Classic <<< Rancilio Silvia <<< Isomac Zaffiro).

If you plan on doing a lot of milk drinks, cappas and lattés, then a HX (Expobar Pulser <<< Bezzera BZ07 <<< Quickmill Andreja Premium) or Dual Boiler (Expobar Brewtus II <<< La Spaz Vivaldi <<< Dalla Corte Mini <<< Izzo Alex Duetto) machine would make sense. Although a budget of €1400 more or less precludes a dual boiler and a decent grinder.

Of course then aesthetics are an issue for many as well, so size, and general appearance come into play.

Thanks to you too.
What's a dual boiler, and what's it's purpose?

As well as the actual machine and grinder, are a lot of extras/accessories needed?

RE*AC*TOR

A single boiler machine, as the name suggests has one boiler. It can, however, be run at two temperatures, one suitable for brewing espresso, and one for producing steam. After brewing a shot, a button or switch is pressed to change the temperature for steam. Depending on the machine this can be relatively quick or quite slow.

A HX machine also has a single boiler, but the temperature is always at that suitable for steam. Water for brewing espresso is cooled in a heat exchanger on route from the boiler. This kind of machine allows brewing and steaming at the same time, or with no gap in time. However, there are some tricks to learn to get the best brew temperature, this generally involves flushing a certain amount of water before every shot (called a cooling flush).

A dual boiler machine has two boilers, one at steam temperature, and one at brew temperature. Always on steam and always on brew water. The advantage of this over a HX machine is that the brew water is always at the correct temperature, and typically can be controlled either digitally or analogly (DC Mini). This is the most convenient type of espresso machine, but it is also the most expensive, with the current cheapest machine being the Expobar Brewtus II at €1200.

As well as the machine and grinder, you need fresh (within 2 weeks or less) roasted coffee beans, a proper tamper, and a steaming pitcher for milk. I'd also recommend a group head brush, a backflush disc, and some cafiza detergent to keep everything clean.

horseflesh

RE*AC*TOR wrote: »

A single boiler machine, as the name suggests has one boiler. It can, however, be run at two temperatures, one suitable for brewing espresso, and one for producing steam. After brewing a shot, a button or switch is pressed to change the temperature for steam. Depending on the machine this can be relatively quick or quite slow.

A HX machine also has a single boiler, but the temperature is always at that suitable for steam. Water for brewing espresso is cooled in a heat exchanger on route from the boiler. This kind of machine allows brewing and steaming at the same time, or with no gap in time. However, there are some tricks to learn to get the best brew temperature, this generally involves flushing a certain amount of water before every shot (called a cooling flush).

A dual boiler machine has two boilers, one at steam temperature, and one at brew temperature. Always on steam and always on brew water. The advantage of this over a HX machine is that the brew water is always at the correct temperature, and typically can be controlled either digitally or analogly (DC Mini). This is the most convenient type of espresso machine, but it is also the most expensive, with the current cheapest machine being the Expobar Brewtus II at €1200.

As well as the machine and grinder, you need fresh (within 2 weeks or less) roasted coffee beans, a proper tamper, and a steaming pitcher for milk. I'd also recommend a group head brush, a backflush disc, and some cafiza detergent to keep everything clean.

Thanks for the excellently comprehensive reply.
Budget wise, with the dual boiler option I think is out, if the cheapest is €1200.
What about the Rancilio machine Gran Hermano linked to? I like the all-in-one/tidy aspect of that.

(Grinder Type: Doser/no Doser......what's that mean??)

RE*AC*TOR

The Rancilio Silvia certainly in the US is one of the most popular single boiler machines on the market. It's a great machine for the price. There is a huge wealth of knowledge about the machine and how to get the best out of it on the internet.

As for grinder - a doser is a chamber at the front of the machine. A lever at the side releases a volumetric dose from this chamber. It is not hugely practical in a home environment from a dosing point of view, however, it is useful in breaking up clumps in the grind, which can be an issue with some grinders.

Depending on the grinder these can be a help or a hindrance. I wouldn't go with the doser on the Iberital MC2 for example, because it's a conical grinder, and clumping is much less of an issue with conicals. On the Mazzers clumping can be an issues, so the doser can be useful for that, however, the dosers on them does tend to leave a bit of ground coffee behind in the chamber, which will stale, so you'll end up having to clean that out regularly.

horseflesh

RE*AC*TOR wrote: »

The Rancilio Silvia certainly in the US is one of the most popular single boiler machines on the market. It's a great machine for the price. There is a huge wealth of knowledge about the machine and how to get the best out of it on the internet.

As for grinder - a doser is a chamber at the front of the machine. A lever at the side releases a volumetric dose from this chamber. It is not hugely practical in a home environment from a dosing point of view, however, it is useful in breaking up clumps in the grind, which can be an issue with some grinders.

Depending on the grinder these can be a help or a hindrance. I wouldn't go with the doser on the Iberital MC2 for example, because it's a conical grinder, and clumping is much less of an issue with conicals. On the Mazzers clumping can be an issues, so the doser can be useful for that, however, the dosers on them does tend to leave a bit of ground coffee behind in the chamber, which will stale, so you'll end up having to clean that out regularly.

Would you recommend a doser for that Rocky grinder?

How do you know all this stuff?!?!? :eek:

RE*AC*TOR

horseflesh wrote: »

Would you recommend a doser for that Rocky grinder?

How do you know all this stuff?!?!? :eek:

I haven't used a Rocky - but I think the doserless is more popular.

I know all this stuff from too much wasted time

Dero

If you're interested in the Rancilio route, then this link may be of interest. It's a sort of a kind of a blog that charts the writers coffee journey from neophyte to connoisseur via (initially) a Rancilio Silvia & Rocky combo.

Even if you're only mildly curious about coffee making I'd recommend it anyway.

fm

i have the neff integrated coffee machine at work.my experiences of these machines are that they are very handy machines to have as they are fully automatic,bean to cup and they rinse and clean themselves.they are the same size as an integrated microwave so dont take up a huge amount of space,but i suppose comparing them to a freestanding machine they are big.the price is a big issue though 1500 for the neff one is alot.i havent owned any other coffee machine to compare its taste to but i do love the coffee for it,havent tried the espresso or milk frotter. i am a coffee lover but a complete novice and im sure other people on here can help you better.