2012 London Olympics - Shooting Venue change to hand?

Sparks

As noted on the NSRA website:

We can't hold 2012 shooting at Woolwich, says Army chief
The head of the Army has come out against the plan to hold the Olympic shooting at Woolwich Barracks in a blow likely to be terminal to the venue. General Sir Richard Dannatt, the chief of the general staff, says the Army has an "operational requirement" for the barracks which precludes their use as an Olympic site. Since being chosen for the Games in 2005, Woolwich has become busier as other London garrisons have closed.

And in the Evening Standard:

We can't hold 2012 shooting at Woolwich, says Army chief

Historic: Woolwich was chosen for the 2012 shooting events in the belief that it would provide an iconic backdrop for TV cameras

THE HEAD of the Army has come out against the plan to hold the Olympic shooting at Woolwich Barracks in a blow likely to be terminal to the venue.

General Sir Richard Dannatt, the chief of the general staff, says the Army has an "operational requirement" for the barracks which precludes their use as an Olympic site. Since being chosen for the Games in 2005, Woolwich has become busier as other London garrisons have closed.

Glynn Alger, secretary-general of the National Rifle Association, told the Standard: "General Dannatt personally approached me to write the shooting element of a minute from him to the Defence Secretary asking that the shooting be moved from Woolwich. I have spoken to him and he is quite happy for me to tell you that the Army do not want the Games at Woolwich because they have an operational requirement for Woolwich."

The Ministry of Defence yesterday refused to deny that General Dannatt had intervened.

Key military units, including the King's Troop, Royal Horse Artillery, which guards the royal family, are moving into Woolwich because barracks at Chelsea and St John's Wood are closing. The Woolwich site also accommodates hundreds of soldiers and their families. There are fears they would have to be moved for safety reasons.

General Dannatt's minute, to the then Defence Secretary, Des Browne, said that the Army could not do without the barracks if it was to perform its full range of London duties. Mr Alger said: "The brief was given to Des Browne and is supposed to have been passed on to the Department of Culture, Media and Sport. Sir Richard's ADC is currently chasing how far it has been distributed."

General Dannatt shook the Government in 2006 when he told a newspaper that British policy in Iraq was a failure. He is known for his strong support of his troops and is understood to be unhappy that they will face further upheaval so soon after moving.

Woolwich has long been among the most controversial Olympic venues. It emerged this week that it will cost at least £42million - well above the original estimate of £30million. It is strongly opposed by the NRA and by British Shooting, the sport's governing body, who are concerned that the venue will leave no permanent legacy. British Shooting wants to move the event back to Bisley in Surrey, the venue in the original Olympic bid.

Mr Alger said: "We are ready with a full plan, a building plan, an accommodation plan, a transport and security plan for Bisley. We come in at about half the budget for Woolwich and we are mystified that we cannot get through the door to discuss it."

Shooting was moved to Woolwich in the belief that the barracks would offer an "iconic" backdrop for television cameras.

However, their position in a built-up area will cause huge safety problems. The South Circular Road, which runs alongside, and another road used to access the local hospital will have to be closed in case motorists are injured by stray bullets.

The Olympic Development Authority was last week revealed to be considering a purpose-built facility in Barking. Sources said it was believed that Bisley could deliver the shooting for £30 million.

If Woolwich is out, and the range in Kent has also been ruled out, that leaves Bisley as a viable candidate again - though not everyone in the NSRA thinks it's a great idea, since it'd disrupt shooting until a *lot* of construction was completed, and after the Games, the NSRA would be stuck with a facility that was even more underused and even more expensive to run than the LRC in Bisley is at the moment.

bigred

Sparks wrote: »

If Woolwich is out, and the range in Kent has also been ruled out, that leaves Bisley as a viable candidate again - though not everyone in the NSRA thinks it's a great idea, since it'd disrupt shooting until a *lot* of construction was completed, and after the Games, the NSRA would be stuck with a facility that was even more underused and even more expensive to run than the LRC in Bisley is at the moment.

What about Wilkinstown... not far from the border, I'm sure the 6 firing points would suffice??!!??

rrpc

Sparks wrote: »

As noted on the NSRA website:
And in the Evening Standard:

If Woolwich is out, and the range in Kent has also been ruled out, that leaves Bisley as a viable candidate again - though not everyone in the NSRA thinks it's a great idea, since it'd disrupt shooting until a *lot* of construction was completed, and after the Games, the NSRA would be stuck with a facility that was even more underused and even more expensive to run than the LRC in Bisley is at the moment.

Well we'd love to have that problem here

They've been moaning about not having a legacy after 2012, and tbh Bisley is the best place in the UK for such a legacy. It badly needs upgrading in a number of areas and certainly would be fantastic if in the future they could hold World Cups there.

So 104 years after Bisley hosted the Olympics, they may be back!

pullandbang

Can't understand why they'd want to build new facilities that would be wasted after the two weeks of competition. Stupid idea not to use Bisley.

Sparks

Problem with Bisley is that the LRC doesn't pay for itself right now, is heavily underused except during national competitions, and a lot of the non-ISSF NSRA shooters (25yd, double dewar and the like aren't ISSF matches) don't see the point in the amount they pay to keep the Lord Roberts Centre running.
Plus, to run the Games there, they'd effectively have to completely rebuild the LRC. The airgun hall floor bounces too much, there's no room for spectators (don't forget, we're talking about spectator levels of 2,500 to 3,000 people in the finals hall of the last two games - you'd be pressed to fit that many in the entire LRC building, let alone in a finals hall that it doesn't have yet), and there's nowhere near enough firing points, no press facilities, insufficient on-site accomodation (they're planning a hotel beside the LRC allright, but right now you're looking at tents and caravans more than anything else).

And on top of all of that, there's the argument that most shooters in the UK don't travel to Bisley, so the idea of a temporary range that's built and then dismantled and then has all the equipment distributed amongst the various ranges all over the UK is one with a lot of merit. Assuming they build it with that in mind, that is.

pullandbang

Sparks wrote: »

Plus, to run the Games there, they'd effectively have to completely rebuild the LRC. The airgun hall floor bounces too much, there's no room for spectators (don't forget, we're talking about spectator levels of 2,500 to 3,000 people in the finals hall of the last two games - you'd be pressed to fit that many in the entire LRC building, let alone in a finals hall that it doesn't have yet), and there's nowhere near enough firing points, no press facilities, insufficient on-site accomodation (they're planning a hotel beside the LRC allright, but right now you're looking at tents and caravans more than anything else).

I've never been there but have flicked through their website and it sounds impressive.

Set in 3000 acres of Surrey heathland some 30 miles from Central London, Bisley played host to all the shooting disciplines of the Manchester Commonwealth Games.

Surely with that much land they could host the games. Of course I'm thinking shotguns rather than rifles/pistols so I can't comment on them. However it would make sense to a layman to build on existing facilities and keep them in situ for the future.

Sparks wrote: »

and then has all the equipment distributed amongst the various ranges all over the UK is one with a lot of merit. Assuming they build it with that in mind, that is.

On the other hand, that would also be nice, assuming as you say, that's what would happen.

Sparks

The website is impressive, and the LRC is impressive compared to anything we have; but compared to Munich or Athens or Beijing, the LRC is, well, somewhat less than pokey.

The land is a bit complicated - the land the LRC sits on is NSRA property as I understand it, but the Bisley Camp itself is owned by the NRA, the fullbore chaps. Any major development would impact on the NSRA, the NRA and the CPSA simultaenously. So it gets complicated and political very quickly.

Bananaman

jaysus - they only need one target each - hardly the millenium dome is it

Sparks

Actually, as construction projects go, it's pretty close to the Dome.

From the ISSF rulebook:

3.5.1 The following minimum range installations are required for the World Championships and Olympic Games:
Event|World Championships|Olympic Games|Finals
300 m Targets|50|--|--|
50 m Targets|80|60|10|
25 m|10 groups|8 groups|3 groups|
Trap|3|3|1|
Double Trap|3|3|1|
Skeet|3|3|1|
50m Running Target Ranges|2|--|--|
10m Running Target Ranges|4|--|--|
Air Rifle and Pistol|80|60|10

Note: The ISSF recommends that for World Cups the number of targets specified for World Championships should be available.

3.5.1.1 Trap and Skeet ranges may be combined. Trap ranges must be convertible to Double Trap unless separate Double Trap ranges are provided.

3.5.1.2 The area used by shooters on rifle and pistol ranges must be protected from sun, wind and rain.

3.5.1.3 Air gun ranges for World Championships and Olympic Games must be installed indoors.

3.5.1.4 Electronic target systems, of makes and models approved by the ISSF, must be used for Pistol and Rifle Qualification and Finals of the Olympic Games and for Finals, as a minimum, in ISSF World Cups and World Championships.Ranges for competitions other than the Olympic Games may combine electronic targets and other systems using paper targets.

3.5.2 The following facilities must be provided on or near the shooting ranges:

3.5.2.1 shelters against sun, wind and rain for shooters and officials;
3.5.2.2 team rooms where the shooters can relax, change clothes and store guns, ammunition and equipment;
3.5.2.3 meeting rooms for use by ISSF officials, Committees and Juries;
3.5.2.4 rooms for offices, target scoring, production of results and storage of targets and related material, etc;
3.5.2.5 a Main Scoreboard for the posting of official results;
3.5.2.6 a suitable place for arms and equipment control;
3.5.2.7 a gunsmith's shop with suitable work benches and vices;
3.5.2.8 appropriate free facilities for firearms and equipment manufacturers to service their products (a fee may be charged for commercial displays);
3.5.2.9 a restaurant or facilities for food service and refreshments;
3.5.2.10 toilets and washrooms;
3.5.2.11 postal, telephone and electronic mail facilities;
3.5.2.12 an area for victory ceremonies;
3.5.2.13 facilities for press, radio and television representatives;
3.5.2.14 appropriate medical facilities and facilities for Doping Control (Article 3.7.12);
3.5.2.15 parking facilities.

3.5.3 The ISSF Technical Delegates are responsible for examining the ranges and other facilities to ensure that they meet ISSF standards (including Article 3.5.2) and are suitable for conducting Championships. The Technical Committee will provide checklists in accordance with the ISSF Regulations and Rules for use by the Technical Delegates in examining the ranges (see Annex T).

3.5.4 Samples of all paper targets (five (5) of each type) and clay targets (twenty (20) qualification targets and twenty (20) powder filled Finals targets) which are to be used in competitions where World Records may be established must be submitted to the Secretary General for testing and verification of specifications at least six (6) months prior to the start of such competitions.Where Electronic Scoring Targets are used, they must be of a type approved by the ISSF.

3.5.5 Outdoor ranges to be used for World Championships and Olympic Games should be completed one (1) year in advance. If the range is not completed, the detailed plans, construction schedule and financial plan must be submitted to the Secretary General one (1) year in advance, and the range must be completed three (3) months in advance.

pullandbang

Sparks wrote: »

Any major development would impact on the NSRA, the NRA and the CPSA simultaenously. So it gets complicated and political very quickly.

You'd think that all the different organizations would sing off the same hymn sheet.....................now where have I heard that before?:)

Sparks

In fairness, the NRA, NSRA and CPSA are actually merging into one body, but it's not a rapid process and won't be done in time for 2012.

trapmando

It's very sad to think that UK/England as such a proud shooting nation, which has a good tradition of Olympic competitors, and where clay shooting is so popular, that they can’t host an ISSF World Cup event, because they don’t have the facilities! And yet places like Cyprus can!

They go on about people like George Digweed (I know he's sporting only) and Richard Faulds being multiple world champions and Olympic champion (in Richards case), yet they can’t hold a world cup event. It's shocking to think that such an event as the Olympics is on its way and they can’t build a state of the art facility for the future generations of shooters. They'll never get the chance again!

Why not build it somewhere central, around the midlands somewhere, where is it would be used after 2012. Not all events at the last Olympics took place in Beijing!

Sparks

Well, when the IOC selected the London bid, Bisley was ruled out because of distance from London. To drop Woolwich now and go with Bisley would be a tad embarressing. On the other hand of course, they're going to have to have the army escort the pistol shooters around as it stands (to secure the public from the shooters rather than to secure the shooters from the public), so if you're being embarressed, might as well be for a sheep as for a prostitute as the Tory saying goes...

FowlerC

At the very least not having it at an army barracks is a PR coup for shooting sports. The original guidelines had spectators behind bullet-proof protective barriers and armed soldiers overseeing the shooting AFAIR.

jwshooter

trapmando wrote: »

It's very sad to think that UK/England as such a proud shooting nation, which has a good tradition of Olympic competitors, and where clay shooting is so popular, that they can’t host an ISSF World Cup event, because they don’t have the facilities! And yet places like Cyprus can!

They go on about people like George Digweed (I know he's sporting only) and Richard Faulds being multiple world champions and Olympic champion (in Richards case), yet they can’t hold a world cup event. It's shocking to think that such an event as the Olympics is on its way and they can’t build a state of the art facility for the future generations of shooters. They'll never get the chance again!

Why not build it somewhere central, around the midlands somewhere, where is it would be used after 2012. Not all events at the last Olympics took place in Beijing!

its a far point ,were not much better here ashbourne is stuck back in the 60s .what part of the midlands ? athlone

pullandbang

jwshooter wrote: »

its a far point ,were not much better here ashbourne is stuck back in the 60s

Nothing wrong with Ashbourne apart from untidy grass. The targets are spot on and any shoot run there usually goes like clockwork.

target

Some recent footage from a BBC news item last Monday about Bisley and Woolich.

Features Phil Boakes of the CPSA and John Leighton-Dyson.

BBC website link

Sparks

Unfortunately, JLD's been let go since that item. Well, more accurately, he looked at the British Shooting funding numbers - they had their funding cut by 78% after Beijing - and saw that there wasn't money there to keep him on as Performance Director, and resigned.

Which means that whereever they host London's shooting in 2012, Team GB just lost even more ability to take advantage of home advantage.

It really is getting to silly buggers stage over there. Even if they choose Bisley and build it up to Olympic standard, they can't host ISSF World Cups or World Championships because of the pistol ban; best they can do is the European Airgun Championships. And events like those would be vital to funding the post-Olympic maintainance of such a facility.

edit:Well, they can do the shotgun World Cups, of course, but they can do those allready. They need the extra funding from rifle&pistol Cups too.

Sparks

The decision's to be made this week, day after tomorrow in fact.
From Reuters:

Shooting provides 2012 organisers with headache
Tue Mar 17, 2009 2:42pm GMT
By Avril Ormsby

LONDON (Reuters) - Olympic organisers could decide this week on the shooting venue for the London 2012 Games, setting themselves on a potential collision course with the international governing body.

It is one of the last venues to be settled and, after years of wrangling, the issue is up for discussion at a British Olympic Board meeting on Thursday, Games organisers said.

The International Olympic Committee (IOC), which has given organisers until the end of this month to make a decision, wants a compact Games centred on London and a site at the Royal Artillery Barracks in Woolwich has been earmarked.

The British Olympic Board, meanwhile, under pressure from the shooting lobby, has been delaying its decision.

British Shooting, the sport's national governing body, has campaigned for a site 56 km outside London in Bisley, Surrey.

The National Shooting Centre at Bisley was the initial choice of the 2012 organisers but was ditched during the bidding process after the IOC made its views clear.

British Shooting has garnered support from lawmakers and attracted signatures to a Downing Street online petition in support of Bisley with a campaign playing on the Olympic Board's concerns over costs and its promise of a post-Games legacy.

Holding shooting at Bisley would cost up to 32 million pounds, considerably cheaper than Woolwich, while Bisley would provide a legacy unlike Woolwich which would only be temporary.

"It's because their case isn't good enough to absolutely shut us up," said Phil Boakes, chairman of British Shooting.

"We are an itch they cannot scratch because we've got too good a case."

British Shooting argues that Bisley, which is near a college that could house the expected 500 shooters, is a better choice in terms of accommodation since Woolwich is a working army barracks and hundreds of soldiers and their families live there.

Upgrading Bisley to Olympic standard would involve expanding on to a Site of Special Scientific Interest (SSSI), which are conservation areas protected under British law.

English Nature, responsible for SSSIs in England, told Reuters it was waiting for details of the development's exact location before commenting but Boakes said the matter was a "red herring" because Bisley's current range contains an SSSI site.

Another group waiting on this week's decision is the London Borough of Barking and Dagenham, which is about five miles from the Olympic Park in Stratford, east London. It was brought into the equation after the stand-off over Bisley and Woolwich.

It has proposed building a venue on a brownfield site providing regeneration and a legacy and it would cost 15 million pounds less than the other options, according to the council's chief executive Rob Whiteman.

The London Olympic Organising Committee (LOCOG), which is responsible for staging the Games, would not comment but issued a statement saying "Woolwich is our preferred venue."

jwshooter

Sparks wrote: »

The decision's to be made this week, day after tomorrow in fact.
From Reuters:

fingers crossed be great to see it at bisley ,

Sparks

Looks like they're sticking to Woolwich

Woolwich to remain as shooting venue for London 2012

March 17 - Woolwich will remain as the shooting venue for the 2012 London Olympics, it was confirmed today despite opposition from the sport's officials who wanted it to be moved to Bisley.

insidethegames had predicted last night that the sport would remain at Woolwich.

The decision by the Olympic Board - which consists of Olympic Minister Tessa Jowell, London 2012 chairman Sebastian Coe, London Mayor Boris Johnson and British Olympic Association chairman Colin Moynihan - will also disappointed Barking and Dagenham Council who had yesterday launched a last-ditch effort to get the events moved there

But Olympic Delivery Authority (ODA) have agreed that feasibility work should be carried out into the proposed venue at Barking Reach as a reserve option in case there is an unexpected problem with Woolwich.

There is little support within the sport for it to be held at the Royal Artillery Barracks in Woolwich because they believe it does not offer them any legacy.

They have been lobbying hard for it to be included at the National Shooting Centre (NSC) at Bisley in Surrey, which was the original location for the sport but was changed during London's bid on the advice of the International Olympic Committee (IOC) to make it more compact.



But the Board ruled out Bisley because they claimed none of the existing ranges there are suitable for Olympic and Paralympic competition and that it would require extra athlete and officials' accommodation.

They also claimed that the land ownership at Bisley Camp is complex and separate agreements would need to be made with the different gun clubs who are based there

They were also concerned that the site lies within a greenbelt area adjacent to housing and is a desginated site of Special Scientific Interest (SSSI) and securing planning constent represented a signifcant risk.

Coe said: "The ODA has conducted a thorough review process of all three locations.

"However, the Board still feels that Woolwich is the best choice of venue.

"It is an iconic venue close to the Olympic VIllage, with a strong shooting heritage, and is one of the Greenwich cluster of Olympic and Paralympic venues.



"We will now work closely with the Ministry of Defence (MoD) and all interested parties to ensure all arrangements are in place for a first-class venue for shooting."

Despite the opposition of British Shooting, the decision was backed by Horst Schreiber, the secretary general of the International Shooting Federation (ISSF).

He said: "We are delighted that Woolwich has been selected.

"The ISSF is in full support of the selected venue and we believe that the Royal Artillery Barracks will host a stunning event.
te venue than Bisley that meets all our requirements and allows our athletes to stay in the Olympic Village, reducing their travel time each day and bringing together athletes from all sports."

This was British Shooting's last opportunity to force a change.

The IOC had warned London in December that any venue changes must be decided by the end of this March ahead of the meeting of their ruling Executive Board in Denver next week.

Any proposals to change venues after that date are likely to be blocked by the IOC.

An Army spokesman said: "Woolwich Barracks is an historic defence location and the MoD is working closely with the London 2012 organisers to enable the shooting events to take place there.

"We are confident that together we can provide a first-class venue with minimal disruption to military duties, Army personnel and their families."

trapmando

jwshooter wrote: »

its a far point ,were not much better here ashbourne is stuck back in the 60s .what part of the midlands ? athlone

Yeah, Athlone wouldn't be too bad! didn't think of there

I see Southern Counties -http://www.southerncountiesleisure.com/shooting/index.php -is holding a shotgun world cup event in 2010, so why couldn't they hold the olympics there, the standard is obviously good enough

Running the olympics shooting events without leaving a legacy ground is crazy, I'm amazed that uk shooting, with their proud shooting tradition, are allowing this to happen

Sparks

From the NRA website:

Olympic Developments
Dear Members

As you are aware the National Rifle Association have been working hard with members of Parliament to get the London Organising Committee of the Games and the Olympic Delivery Authority to reconsider Bisley as a possible venue for the 2012 shooting.

It had become apparent during the original assessment of Bisley that a potentially less than honest appraisal of the National Shooting Centre had been carried out with intention of making it difficult for the Olympic Board to choose shootings preferred venue.

It has got to the stage where we have wide ranging support for this work from the Lords as a result of large numbers of you writing to your MPs and in particular Lord Corbett.

As a result of this pressure and despite efforts by the Olympic authorities to derail the process, Lord Corbett has asked the ODA to attend a presentation of 'The Bisley Bid' in front of members of the Lords and Commons and then to explain the rationale for their rejection of Bisley as a venue.

The support of the Lords and MPs shows what can be achieved if we all work together in concert towards common goals.

Glynn Alger
Secretary General

Corbett's letter is attached (and would make you wish for mandatory typing lessons, but anyway).