Islamic terrorists attack in Mumbai (Bombay)

mike65

Co-ordinated attacks have killed dozens in Indias primary city with western friendly locations the target, several Indian MPs are being held or are in hiding in a hotel along with others.

Mike

Kristopherus

On Sky News and all the other news networks on satellite - even bloody Fox:D

ChocolateSauce

*insert anti-theistic declaration*

merrionsq

ChocolateSauce wrote: »

*insert anti-theistic declaration*

Or, should we respect their right to express themselves?

SeanW

My first thoughts are for the victims and their families of what is clearly an act of war.

unlike this guy ...

ChocolateSauce wrote: »

*insert anti-theistic declaration*

Go on, tell us about how Islam (or at least in its Wahabist forms) is "the religion of peace" and explain why most of the terrorism, murder, bombings and rampages in this world is committed by people who were taught to hate Kaffirs from the age of 3.

I could use a good laugh.

oscarBravo

Sole and only warning to SeanW and others: if you decide to make this thread a vehicle for anti-Islamic bile, you will be permanently banned.

Not up for discussion.

turgon

Im not too familiar with the politics of India, or this attack for that matter.

As far as I know though India has a fairly stable and democratic government. Its strikes me as a pity then when these attacks occur, de stabilizing regions where the government is actually there (unlike, say Iraq)

mumhaabu

What are the chances this is Kashmiri related??

IRISH RAIL

highly likely reports from haaretz say the terrorists spoke urdu with a kashmere accent.
atm its still ongoing with two blasts reported at the chabad centre in the south of the city.
indian commandos are storming each location but it looks at the moment to be a disaster.
very bad press coming from there right now this could be for operational reasons.
and the likelyhood of it spiralling out of control with an indian pakistan conflict is high it would get out of control very quickly, this is one attack that has hit them very hard and right on a nerve.
the next move i think is up to mr Singh the indian pm

FTA69

SeanW wrote: »

My first thoughts are for the victims and their families of what is clearly an act of war.

unlike this guy ...

Go on, tell us about how Islam (or at least in its Wahabist forms) is "the religion of peace" and explain why most of the terrorism, murder, bombings and rampages in this world is committed by people who were taught to hate Kaffirs from the age of 3.

I could use a good laugh.

I know, the way these pinko-liberals go on you'd swear Christian nations were off invading places and aerially bombarding them.

jonny72

SeanW wrote: »

My first thoughts are for the victims and their families of what is clearly an act of war.

unlike this guy ...

Go on, tell us about how Islam (or at least in its Wahabist forms) is "the religion of peace" and explain why most of the terrorism, murder, bombings and rampages in this world is committed by people who were taught to hate Kaffirs from the age of 3.

I could use a good laugh.

Theres been plenty of horrendous acts in India recently what makes this so special that it deserves the 'act of war' declaration.

Wow all these decades and centuries and horror and terror and murder and bombings from Islam.. oh wait.. yes thats right.. 2001.. you getting it yet?

Nodin

turgon wrote: »

Im not too familiar with the politics of India, or this attack for that matter.

As far as I know though India has a fairly stable and democratic government.

...however its provinces see a great deal of sectarian conflict between Christian and Hindu (particularily bad this year), Hindu and Muslim, as well as upper caste Hindu v lower caste Hindu. Plus theres one or two groups of seperatists.

djpbarry

IRISH RAIL wrote: »

...the likelyhood of it spiralling out of control with an indian pakistan conflict is high it would get out of control very quickly...

I don't know about that. To my memory, the US is the only country to launch a military campaign on the back of a terrorist attack (in recent years) and look how that's worked out for them. I can't imagine either India or Pakistan would be prepared to allow things to spiral out of control to such a degree.

ChocolateSauce

SeanW wrote: »

My first thoughts are for the victims and their families of what is clearly an act of war.

unlike this guy ...

Go on, tell us about how Islam (or at least in its Wahabist forms) is "the religion of peace" and explain why most of the terrorism, murder, bombings and rampages in this world is committed by people who were taught to hate Kaffirs from the age of 3.

I could use a good laugh.

I would, but that isn't what I believe. You seem to have gotten my statement confused with its anti-thesis? Anyway, I like this forum so I don't feel the need to permanantly banned by going off topic.

Ahem....back on topic, India is now blaming its neighbours for harbouring the terrorist. I don't think this will result in better ties between India and Pakistan. I think it is a diplomatic insult to do such a thing.

wes

ChocolateSauce wrote: »

Ahem....back on topic, India is now blaming its neighbours for harbouring the terrorist. I don't think this will result in better ties between India and Pakistan. I think it is a diplomatic insult to do such a thing.

India, has a habit of blaming, pretty much everything they can on Pakistan. The Pakistani government, are no position to attack India, as they are basically fighting a civil war, in there tribal regions.

I don't doubt the terrorists involved want relations to worsen, between the 2 countries.

ChocolateSauce

wes wrote: »

I don't doubt the terrorists involved want relations to worsen, between the 2 countries.

Me either. The fact that they are both nuclear-armed isn't a nice thought either. They both have policies of not striking first (with nukes), so in the event of war this will hopefully take effect....but when Pakistan started loosing, they might get desperate and it is full of militant Muslims who would love to get their hands on a nuclear arsenal.

I wouldn't be entirely surprised, however, if the US anticipated such a thing and had a plan to deprive Pakistan of its nukes in the event of a fundamentalist take-over.

wes

ChocolateSauce wrote: »

Me either. The fact that they are both nuclear-armed isn't a nice thought either. They both have policies of not striking first (with nukes), so in the event of war this will hopefully take effect....but when Pakistan started loosing, they might get desperate and it is full of militant Muslims who would love to get their hands on a nuclear arsenal.

I don't think India, would be insane enough to try and occupy Pakistan. They have enough trouble with Kashmir as it is. Also, the war between the 2 have never really had either side completely win out. The most likely situation, is a long prolonged war, were thousands (potentially millions) would die.

ChocolateSauce wrote: »

I wouldn't be entirely surprised, however, if the US anticipated such a thing and had a plan to deprive Pakistan of its nukes in the event of a fundamentalist take-over.

I think a US invasion would pretty much, end with fundamentalist getting the Nukes.

Also, the fundamentalists are in no position to take over all of Pakistan. There is potential for the tribal regions to split, but for them to take over the whole country is unlikely imho. Remember, while there is a religous element to the militants in the tribal belt, there is also the simple fact that they are ethnically and cultural different from other parts of Pakistan and that this plays just as much of a role in what going on there.

merrionsq

FTA69 wrote: »

I know, the way these pinko-liberals go on you'd swear Christian nations were off invading places and aerially bombarding them.

Yeh man, no-one like has the right to criticize them, or why they did it, cause other people are doing bad sh1t as well for different reasons.

djpbarry

ChocolateSauce wrote: »

I wouldn't be entirely surprised, however, if the US anticipated such a thing and had a plan to deprive Pakistan of its nukes in the event of a fundamentalist take-over.

As wes has said, US interventions don't tend to end well and it's probably the worst thing that could happen in the region at the moment.

I'm probably just repeating wes again here too, but, as he alluded to, a fundamentalist takeover of Pakistan is extremely unlikely and is not something that any of us should concern ourselves with. Remember that the fundamentalists are targeting Pakistani civilians on a regular basis and they have virtually no support among the general populace. A Sinn Féin takeover of Ireland is probably more likely at this point.

IRISH RAIL

Its been rumored in the past that the ICI have been involved in attacks on indian soil, must see if theres any proof of that
but look at the scale of this attack multiple locations each with its own significance high class hotels etc
could be that india will want revenge for economic losses from these guys and who better to blame than those sneeky b+()*)&^%%$ next door

djpbarry

IRISH RAIL wrote: »

...but look at the scale of this attack multiple locations each with its own significance high class hotels etc

Look at the level of sophistication that was involved in the attacks on the WTC and Pentagon. It was still a terrorist attack though (unless you want to delve into the realms of the conspiracy theorist).

Sand

I'm confused - I didnt know India was working hand in hand with the evil Zionist Israelis to murder as many innocent Palestinians as possible? Or that they were an imperialistic power invading the middle east for oil? What does this mean for those who believe these are the root causes of all Islamic....wait, not, Arabic....nah....middle eastern? .....something terrorism?

The most ironic thing I saw today was an Richard Whelan [ who wrote a very good book on Islamic terrorism by the way] in the Irish Times claiming that Al Queda "detests western-style progress and democracy which makes more difficult its task of restoring the Islamic Caliphate and imposing Sharia law".

Doesnt he know its dreadfully common of him to claim that "they hate our freedoms"?

wes

Sand wrote: »

I'm confused - I didnt know India was working hand in hand with the evil Zionist Israelis to murder as many innocent Palestinians as possible? Or that they were an imperialistic power invading the middle east for oil? What does this mean for those who believe these are the root causes of all Islamic....wait, not, Arabic....nah....middle eastern? .....something terrorism?

No one is making any such suggestions. You seem to be alone in that here.

Also, you do realize, there are several major extremist groups in India. There are Hindu, Muslim and Maoist groups. Who engage in attacks for various local reasons.

Sand wrote: »

The most ironic thing I saw today was an Richard Whelan [ who wrote a very good book on Islamic terrorism by the way] in the Irish Times claiming that Al Queda "detests western-style progress and democracy which makes more difficult its task of restoring the Islamic Caliphate and imposing Sharia law".

Yes, they do. However, Al Qaeda, may very well not be involved in this. Also, there motivations include ending occupation of Muslim lands and they would consider Kashmir occupied as well. So if there involved, its fits there stated past reasoning.

Sand wrote: »

Doesnt he know its dreadfully common of him to claim that "they hate our freedoms"?

I would say its far more complicated, than a simple sound bite.

IRISH RAIL

djpbarry wrote: »

Look at the level of sophistication that was involved in the attacks on the WTC and Pentagon. It was still a terrorist attack though (unless you want to delve into the realms of the conspiracy theorist).

not a chance do i want to even go there but i dont think these guys are on the same scale as al qaida. and al qaida had immunity in afganistan to plan all that, also when these new groups spring up it always raises a question in my head who are financing them, theres not a global fund for these guys it has to come down to a few common denominators.

this mornings events are interesting the times india reporting the attacker who survived from the railway station claims pakistan helped him.
pakistan are reportedly sending a senior official to assist.
a trawler has been found with the captains throat slit (sky news seem to be making a big deal of the fact a gps was found im assuming most trawlers would have these)

and the toll continues to rise how sad

wes

IRISH RAIL wrote: »

this mornings events are interesting the times india reporting the attacker who survived from the railway station claims pakistan helped him.
pakistan are reportedly sending a senior official to assist.

I wouldn't trust the media reports too much at this early stage. All kind of claims are being made and retracted. Some papers were reporting that British Pakistani's were involved and I just saw on Sky News, that a Indian Minister (who the papers claimed said it), denys saying any such thing.

So, I would take these claims with a bit of salt for a little while.

purple'n'gold

ChocolateSauce wrote: »

Me either. The fact that they are both nuclear-armed isn't a nice thought either. They both have policies of not striking first (with nukes), so in the event of war this will hopefully take effect....but when Pakistan started loosing, they might get desperate and it is full of militant Muslims who would love to get their hands on a nuclear arsenal.

I wouldn't be entirely surprised, however, if the US anticipated such a thing and had a plan to deprive Pakistan of its nukes in the event of a fundamentalist take-over.

How would the USA go about doing that? Depriving Pakistan of their nukes? Invade Pakistan?

Nodin

Sand wrote: »

I'm confused - I didnt know India was working hand in hand with the evil Zionist Israelis to murder as many innocent Palestinians as possible? Or that they were an imperialistic power invading the middle east for oil? What does this mean for those who believe these are the root causes of all Islamic....wait, not, Arabic....nah....middle eastern? .....something terrorism?

You've heard of Kashmir, presumably? And are aware of tensions between Hindu, Sikh, Christian and Muslim in India?

pratheesh

IRISH RAIL wrote: »

(sky news seem to be making a big deal of the fact a gps was found im assuming most trawlers would have these)
(

The reason they were focussing on the gps was the fact that they found coordinates for a return trip to a port in pakistan, which could suggest that some of these terrorists had plans to return back.

pratheesh

IRISH RAIL wrote: »

Its been rumored in the past that the ICI have been involved in attacks on indian soil, must see if theres any proof of that

I know Indian Authorities keep blaming Pakistan Military, especially their ISI (Inter Services Intelligence) for assisting and training terrorists in attacking Indian soil. But there is good cause for this. My Dad served in the Indian Airforce for 35 years and has seen action twice involving Pakistan in 1971 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indo-Pakistani_War_of_1971) and more recently 1999 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kargil_War) and we have ample reasons to believe in the validity of these blames.
Both these wars ended in decisive victory for Indian armed forces. If you read about Kargil war and see pictures and videos you'll find that even though Pakistan army denied any involvement at first, it was their military leaders who ultimately had to come forward and accept the bodies of their soldiers who were with the militants actively involved.

Nodin

pratheesh wrote: »

I know ...(snip)....actively involved.

Indeedy. The Pakistani Government might be univolved, but the ISI and/or the army behind it. It's early days yet.

pratheesh

Heard on cnn live (i've spent best part of past three days and nights watching it) that, One of the terrorists apprehended said that they were trained by LET (lashkar e toiba), a militant group based in Pakistan for three months.
They were 12 in total, came via a merchant ship from pakistan, hijacked a indian fishing vessel, killed 4 crew on the spot and the rest after they reached near Indian coast.
A previous team had travelled to india couple of months back to prepare collect full info on the targets.

They were made to memorise the layout of the Hotels and were to travel in groups of two and to "kill till they were killed". Urine tests revealed that they were given drugs to keep going for long.

Some parts of the whole attack seemed to have been taken straight out of the movie "The Kingdom"

IRISH RAIL

ici was a typo sorry knew it was isi only time will tell if they had any involvement

on a slightly off topic rant I just wanted to give out about the star`s lack of reporting on the Chabad house that was attacked every other building was covered in detail except that maybe the star is showing there true colours ??

jonny72

Sand wrote: »

I'm confused - I didnt know India was working hand in hand with the evil Zionist Israelis to murder as many innocent Palestinians as possible? Or that they were an imperialistic power invading the middle east for oil? What does this mean for those who believe these are the root causes of all Islamic....wait, not, Arabic....nah....middle eastern? .....something terrorism?

The most ironic thing I saw today was an Richard Whelan [ who wrote a very good book on Islamic terrorism by the way] in the Irish Times claiming that Al Queda "detests western-style progress and democracy which makes more difficult its task of restoring the Islamic Caliphate and imposing Sharia law".

Doesnt he know its dreadfully common of him to claim that "they hate our freedoms"?

The bitterness in the tone of this is incredible, if only terrible events could prove points. US is a very hard target, Europe medium and everywhere else is generally a soft target. In an Al Qaeda perfect world, everywhere would be the equivalent of pre-2001 Afghanistan, with Taliban style rulings.

Medieval Christianity was infinitely more violent and terrible than extreme Islam is today, and thats where these people live, in the middle ages, with a middle ages mindset, not very hard to understand.

pratheesh

CNN Live is doing a good job. They've been telecasting round the clock live video's from all three locations. Felt very sad when they said that the 5 hostages in Chabad House were killed. We were all hoping that they will be rescued.

pratheesh

The information gathered from the captured terrorist

http://www.dancewithshadows.com/politics/the-versace-terrorist-is-captured-put-me-on-saline-i-dont-want-to-die/

http://www.dnaindia.com/mobile/report.asp?n=1210104

Sand

No one is making any such suggestions. You seem to be alone in that here.

Your response is both factual and yet not addressing the point made. You might as well have said "Water is wet". Bravo.

Also, you do realize, there are several major extremist groups in India. There are Hindu, Muslim and Maoist groups. Who engage in attacks for various local reasons.

Are there? Next youll be telling me theres a long history of Hindu-Muslim violence in India. Or that there are tensions between India and Pakistan over Kashmir. Or some other such craziness.

Yes, they do. However, Al Qaeda, may very well not be involved in this. Also, there motivations include ending occupation of Muslim lands and they would consider Kashmir occupied as well. So if there involved, its fits there stated past reasoning.

They most likely are not, as Al Qaeda is not a terrorist group with "footsoldiers" on the ground as such but rather a supporting infrastructure for various regional terrorist groups. Hence, a local Indian or Pakistani group may have carried out the attacks, with Al Qaedas involvement limited to training, funding and intelligence support.

However, many reports note that American and British nationals were singled out from the hostages, and the targeting of the Jewish center indicates that motives other than Kashmir motivated the planning and execution of the attack.

I would say its far more complicated, than a simple sound bite.

But a soundbite that is factually correct? It just amuses me that this concept was so derided, and yet its inescapable that yes, Al Qaeda despise what it views as the immorality, secularism and "loose living" of the west and despises and fears such influences on the Muslim world. Hence the attacks on the hotels frequented by westerners and the Indian elite.

If anything, the viewpoint that ignores the jihadist motivations and instead presents them as merely a reactionary force with no real goals or aims of their own is perhaps the source of the most simplistic soundbites.

The bitterness in the tone of this is incredible, if only terrible events could prove points. US is a very hard target, Europe medium and everywhere else is generally a soft target. In an Al Qaeda perfect world, everywhere would be the equivalent of pre-2001 Afghanistan, with Taliban style rulings.

Medieval Christianity was infinitely more violent and terrible than extreme Islam is today, and thats where these people live, in the middle ages, with a middle ages mindset, not very hard to understand.

I've read this a couple of times, but Im still stuggling to grasp if there was a point. Feel free to have another go.

wes

Sand wrote: »

Your response is both factual and yet not addressing the point made. You might as well have said "Water is wet". Bravo.

Your clearly looking for an argument. Sorry no going to give it to you on this. The world is way more complicated, than your trying to make it out to be.

Sand wrote: »

Are there? Next youll be telling me theres a long history of Hindu-Muslim violence in India. Or that there are tensions between India and Pakistan over Kashmir. Or some other such craziness.

There is tension between all communities. Communal violence is very common. Just last month Christians were being murdered in India. Violence in India, is common across all communities, yes and Muslims are very much involved in it, as well as at time being victims.

Sand wrote: »

They most likely are not, as Al Qaeda is not a terrorist group with "footsoldiers" on the ground as such but rather a supporting infrastructure for various regional terrorist groups. Hence, a local Indian or Pakistani group may have carried out the attacks, with Al Qaedas involvement limited to training, funding and intelligence support.

These groups, existed long before Al Qaeda. They have there own networks and there own tactics. The attackers seems to be taking tactics from Lakshar E Toba (or however you spell it). Its possible, they didn't even assist, as these groups are capable of stuff on there own.

Sand wrote: »

However, many reports note that American and British nationals were singled out from the hostages, and the targeting of the Jewish center indicates that motives other than Kashmir motivated the planning and execution of the attack.

The vast majority killed were Indians. This is being ignored by so many. Attacking foreigners gurantees publicity. They may have other reason true, but Kashmir is probably the main one, due to the majority of targets being locals.

Sand wrote: »

But a soundbite that is factually correct? It just amuses me that this concept was so derided, and yet its inescapable that yes, Al Qaeda despise what it views as the immorality, secularism and "loose living" of the west and despises and fears such influences on the Muslim world. Hence the attacks on the hotels frequented by westerners and the Indian elite.

Your partially correct. The problem is that the sound bite, simplifies things, which have multiple reasons. They hate the West, but I think it ridiculous to pretend that the mass graves in Kashmir, aren't a great motivator here. I actually agree with you to a degree, but I find it hard to believe stuff like, the mass murder of civilians doesn't piss people off.

Sand wrote: »

If anything, the viewpoint that ignores the jihadist motivations and instead presents them as merely a reactionary force with no real goals or aims of their own is perhaps the source of the most simplistic soundbites.

I agree with you there. However, the "they hate us for the freedom", is just as bad. There motivations are a combination of both a hatred for the West and revenge for stuff both real and imagined. There is no reason, why it can't be both, seeing as they tend to go about there hatred of the West, as well as stuff like Iraq and Kashmir. People are capable of complex motivations and these guys are no different.

To say its one or the other, is a disservice to the situation. Look these people are monsters, no 2 ways about it. However, mass graves in Kashmir and other atrocities, give these guys ammunition, not to mention being terrible crimes in there own right.

IRISH RAIL

pratheesh wrote: »

CNN Live is doing a good job. They've been telecasting round the clock live video's from all three locations. Felt very sad when they said that the 5 hostages in Chabad House were killed. We were all hoping that they will be rescued.

unfortunatly haaretz and ynet are reporting 9 now 7 identified

nickpr53

pratheesh wrote: »

They were made to memorise the layout of the Hotels and were to travel in groups of two and to "kill till they were killed".

eeeem.. it's not exactly that hard to go to a city, perhaps one you've visited before, and memmorize a couple of rather memorable buildings and street names.

No you might wanna ask yourself this though. why was the synagogue left for last? when it could have been such a small operation, why did it take 62 hours? since when do such sieges take 62 hours?

Is the indian security forces incompetent.. or is possible at all that there's a purpose to this all?

http://www.spinwhip.com/mumbai

nickpr53

wes is right, the targetting of foreigners was only for the purpose of global publicity.

why? I reckon... global publicity increase the sense indians will have in having to respond, and fight with pakistan.

perversely though, this works both ways.. because I reckon.. this is exactly what the terrorists wanted.. why? http://www.spinwhip.com/mumbai ... to free themselves in pakistan from the central government, which WILL break if war occurs.. it is at it's weakest since decades..

jonny72

Sand wrote: »

But a soundbite that is factually correct? It just amuses me that this concept was so derided, and yet its inescapable that yes, Al Qaeda despise what it views as the immorality, secularism and "loose living" of the west and despises and fears such influences on the Muslim world."

Right

Hence the attacks on the hotels frequented by westerners and the Indian elite.

Mostly wrong. This is part of the brain-washing and trying to encourage the masses, but its mainly about hate, revenge, and point scoring. Islam just happens to be an incredibly efficient tool for this.

You could harp on about the Hindus hating the Christians in India because they 'hate their freedums' or some rubbish, but its just down to simple basic human emotions, manipulated into mob mentalities. Certain religions, as I said, make great tools for violence and the justification for it.

US/Russian foreign policy and 'evil zionism' has a lot to do with creating this hate in the first place. Denying that is like saying the IRA would have been bombing London anyway if the English had never invaded Ireland.