Another dealer caught price fixing

Seth Brundle

A car dealership and its two directors are to be sentenced at Dublin Circuit Criminal Court in relation to price fixing in the selling of Citroen vehicles in Leinster over a period of six years.

Gowan Motors (Parkgate) Ltd, Parkgate Street, Dublin, pleaded guilty through solicitor Mr Anthony Lang, that on dates between July 1996 and May 2002 within Leinster it entered an agreement with other undertakings to attempt to prevent, restrict or distort competition in the motor vehicle trade by directly or indirectly fixing the selling prices of Citroen vehicles.

The company directors, Brian Smyth, of Castlelands, Balbriggan, and Michael Patrick Gibbs, of Upper Carrickhill Road, Portmarnock, pleaded guilty to authorising or consenting to the same offence.

Judge Katherine Delahunt remanded Smyth and Gibbs on continuing bail until the sentence date next year when full facts will be heard in the case.

www.breakingnews.ie/text/ireland/mhidqlqlmhgb

I'm surprised at who it is though. I wonder what Peugeot have to say about it all!

Drummerboy08

These boyos should be reprimanded somethin serious. Its reasons like this that cause the public to be so wary of dealers.

Guy:Incognito

Who else was involved in the price fixing?

Robbo

Stekelly wrote: »

Who else was involved in the price fixing?

Basically, the Citroen dealers would have a sit down and agree their prices for delivery charges and the like.

I remember Prime Time doing a piece on this at the time.

Kashkai

I wonder if SIMI will go after these price fixing scumbags with the same intensity with which they have targeted UK imports after they asked their members to report people driving cars with UK plates.

And as someone who shops around when buying a car, I've noticed that most dealers quote within €100 of each other when doing a trade in. Bearing in mind that they have leeway on the trade in price and their own profit margin, its amazing that they can be sooooooooooo consistent when calculating their price to change. Now if that isn't price fixing, I don't know what is.

Guy:Incognito

Robbo wrote: »

I remember Prime Time doing a piece on this at the time.

Not sure if I'm remembering this right but wasnt there somehting to do with a Citroen dealer in crumlin thats now gone? (not 100% so wont put the name in). I assume this is all to do with the same case and Gowan arent the only ones getting done over this?

Hellrazer

This goes on in every dealer franchise.You`ll probably find that they have a meeting once every couple of months under a name like "****** Dealers Association" or something similar.

Its a closed door affair but it seems like its the "unlucky" ones who are getting caught(and I mean unlucky in the best possible sense for consumers)

Ive even been pulled up for offering extra discount to parts/service customers who are just looking for a fair price on something.Does my head in!!!!


@ Prosperous Dave--With regards to trade ins being so close in value in similar dealers--The reason is that they all use this little vehicle valuing book that gives trade in values according to model/year/condition.If everyone is using the same book then that why trade in values are so close.Mind you I think the book needs updating with the current climate

R.O.R

As the importers, aren't Gowan's allowed to fix the prices? Or is this about used cars?

I_Love_Tomatoes

Prosperous Dave wrote: »

I wonder if SIMI will go after these price fixing scumbags with the same intensity with which they have targeted UK imports after they asked their members to report people driving cars with UK plates.

Here Here!

Another reason to be delighted that I avoided giving my business to these cowboys. I went to Manchester to pick up my car, paid the VRT which, since the CO2 system came in really worked to my advantage, and still managed to save about 2 grand after travel costs and expenses. It's nuts. They are getting the same ar$ekicking as the cowboy estate agents who screwed up the property market for years.

Darsad

I_Love_Tomatoes wrote: »

Here Here!

Another reason to be delighted that I avoided giving my business to these cowboys. I went to Manchester to pick up my car, paid the VRT which, since the CO2 system came in really worked to my advantage, and still managed to save about 2 grand after travel costs and expenses. It's nuts. They are getting the same ar$ekicking as the cowboy estate agents who screwed up the property market for years.

And of course you will expect the same level of facilities and service from the equivalent main dealer here when you return for repairs or even to trade in. Sure why dont we all just do our shopping in the UK and let every equivalent business here go to the wall ! No doubt you were one of those who shed a tear when Ireland played England in Croke Park.

voxpop

It your patriotic duty to shop in Ireland only :rolleyes:

De Hipster

Darsad wrote: »

Sure why dont we all just do our shopping in the UK and let every equivalent business here go to the wall ! No doubt you were one of those who shed a tear when Ireland played England in Croke Park.

I really can't understand this attitude of 'support home industry while they shaft us...'

I can understand the buy Irish but not when they are completely bleeding the consumer dry, competition & competitive pricing is a good thing.

Perhaps the dealers/builders/estate agents all will learn a very valuable lesson in humility now that the general masses have seen through their robbing antics.

I will be hot-tailing it to the North for my Christmas gift & booze shopping this weekend & the savings will allow me to save, have a few extra nights out over the festive season, treat myself etc., etc...all based on the same principle; why pay more to retailers, car dealers etc., when it's cheaper elsewhere. Long live the European open-market!

Darsad

OP
As category moderator i think the title of your thread is a little OTT

As it said the full facts will not be heard until the new year !

Drummerboy08

De Hipster wrote: »

I really can't understand this attitude of 'support home industry while they shaft us...'

I can understand the buy Irish but not when they are completely bleeding the consumer dry, competition & competitive pricing is a good thing.

Perhaps the dealers/builders/estate agents all will learn a very valuable lesson in humility now that the general masses have seen through their robbing antics.

I will be hot-tailing it to the North for my Christmas gift & booze shopping this weekend & the savings will allow me to save, have a few extra nights out over the festive season, treat myself etc., etc.

Would you buy your house in the UK and try to import it?

Or maybe use an estate agent in the UK to sell your house in Mayo...

This dealer is wrong, and he should be punished accordingly. But, there are alot of good, honest dealers out there, like there are builders and estate agents too.

The health service is in sh*t over here too, why dont you go to A&E in Manchester?

milltown

R.O.R wrote: »

As the importers, aren't Gowan's allowed to fix the prices? Or is this about used cars?

I thought Gallic distributors were the Citroen importers, or is it ppart of the same group?

Gregor Samsa

milltown wrote: »

I thought Gallic distributors were the Citroen importers, or is it ppart of the same group?

They're part of the same group.

www.citroen.ie wrote:

Gallic Distributors Ltd. A member of the Gowan Group

R.O.R wrote:

As the importers, aren't Gowan's allowed to fix the prices? Or is this about used cars?

It's about delivery charges and the like on new cars, which can (should) differ from dealer to dealer.

R.O.R

milltown wrote: »

I thought Gallic distributors were the Citroen importers, or is it ppart of the same group?

Well, as Gallic Distributors operate out of Gowan house on the Naas Road, I'm pretty sure there is some sort of connection

De Hipster

Drummerboy08 wrote: »

Would you buy your house in the UK and try to import it?

Or maybe use an estate agent in the UK to sell your house in Mayo...

Moot point.

This dealer is wrong, and he should be punished accordingly. But, there are alot of good, honest dealers out there, like there are builders and estate agents too.

This may be very true but having said that the industry as a whole (including motor, construction & estate agencies) has been tarred, perhaps through internal regulation & agreement they (the good ones) should work to clean-up their image and turf out the rest.

The health service is in sh*t over here too, why dont you go to A&E in Manchester?

Bizarrely enough I was there at the weekend & had I any issues I'd readily visit A&E there. Alternatively when in Ireland, I tend to stick close to the border...

Gregor Samsa

Drummerboy08 wrote: »

The health service is in sh*t over here too, why dont you go to A&E in Manchester?

Funnily enough, the HSE already thought of this! It's called the National Treatment Purchase Fund.

http://www.ntpf.ie/what/

The NTPF sources treatment for qualifying patients in hospitals in Ireland, Northern Ireland and England

As for buying a house in the UK and importing it, that's a really silly comparison. :rolleyes: People buy all kinds of (transportable) goods from the UK (and beyond) every day. Ever bought a book or CD from Amazon or Play? Where's the difference in buying a car?

Hondo75

Another Citroen Dealer in Drogheda. This guy was twice president of the Citroen Dealers Association..

http://www.rte.ie/news/2008/1028/cartel.html

slimjimmc

Also (No mention of convictions or otherwise, just they were charged)

Prison Sentences for Corporate Offenders? (4th February 2008)

In recent days, a number of persons connected with Citroën dealerships around the country have been charged with a variety of offences under the Competition Act 1991 and the Competition Act 2002 (the “1991 Act” and the “2002 Act”, together referred to as the “Competition Acts”). These offences concern the alleged operation of a price fixing cartel.
Bursey Peppard Limited, a Dublin Citroën dealership was charged with offences under the Competition Acts on Monday 7 January 2008. Duffy Motors, trading as PG Duffy & Sons, together with Patrick Duffy, a director of the company, were charged with similar offences in Naas District Court on Wednesday 9 January 2008. On Friday 18 January, a third Citroën dealer was charged with competition offences in Drogheda District Court. Jack Doran and Ravensdale Limited, trading as Jack Doran Motors, were charged with price fixing offences. The DPP has indicated that the defendants will be tried on indictment in the Central Criminal Court.

VolvoMan

Has anyone noticed that these so-called 'scumbags' (bit harsh a word I think) are the ones who have invested little if anything in their showrooms during the boom times?

In fact, I don't think Gowan Parkgate Street have ever invested anything in their premises since it was probably built. The same goes for all the other dealers that have been in the limelight in recent months over similar convictions.

crosstownk

VolvoMan wrote: »

In fact, I don't think Gowan Parkgate Street have ever invested anything in their premises since it was probably built.

Correct. They bought a new premises.

Seth Brundle

Darsad wrote: »

OP
As category moderator i think the title of your thread is a little OTT

As it said the full facts will not be heard until the new year !

VolvoMan wrote: »

Has anyone noticed that these so-called 'scumbags' (bit harsh a word I think) are the ones who have invested little if anything in their showrooms during the boom times?

Agreed - my words were harsh but I'm sure many understand my sentiments!
Tread renamed!

Bee

Stekelly wrote: »

Not sure if I'm remembering this right but wasnt there somehting to do with a Citroen dealer in crumlin thats now gone? (not 100% so wont put the name in). I assume this is all to do with the same case and Gowan arent the only ones getting done over this?

The one I remember was Ford dealers ( it stuck in my mind because i was amused at how much of a trade in they were offering Missus Bee at the time funny thing they all offered the same price! Wonder why?)

http://www.independent.ie/national-news/man-on-charge-of-aiding-ford-prices-cartel-103751.html

Independent.ie WebSearch
Thursday April 20 2006

THE first investigation into the country's multi-billion euro motor industry has resulted in the prosecution of a man accused of helping Ford car dealers operate a price-fixing cartel. Cork businessman Denis Manning faces two charges of aiding Ford dealers to fix their car prices under the Competitions Act.

mickdw

I have no sympathy for dealers but I dont really see the big deal. They only have control over their own brand so if you dont like the price, dont buy a citroen.
It would be a scandal if all the motor retailers in the country got together and agreed a pricing structure across all makes & models thereby leaving us with no option but to be ripped off but its only one brand.
Surely all brands have a RRP for any model you care to mention. I know if a walk into vw/Audi dealers, the RRP is the same from dealer to dealer. Is it not normal practice to do this?
Each separate dealer has a certain amount to play with in any deal in relation to trade in etc so they can still compete with each other right down until its not worth their while. Sounds like a lot of nonsense to me.

Yakult

Prosperous Dave wrote: »

I wonder if SIMI will go after these price fixing scumbags with the same intensity with which they have targeted UK imports after they asked their members to report people driving cars with UK plates.

Couldnt agree more. :mad:

Darsad

The SIMI are loosing dealers by the bucket load and many are refusing to renew their membership because they are simply not happy with the SIMI and blame them for inaction over the current market situation particuarly their inability to foresee or influence the changes brought about by CO2 taxation policies and so I would imagine they would not really be in a position to force any issues.

The competition authority are happy to have the general public think that these dealers were ripping them off to the tune of thousands which is simply not the case (and this is where I get lynched ). I do not condone what these dealers were doing but they were simply maintaining a margain
on deals as there were dealers out there chasing rebates from distributors who were prepared to sell cars at or in some cases below cost and it made the playing field uneven for the smaller or rural dealers.Dont for a minute think it was only Citroen dealers all marques have dealer comittees or bodies that meet from time to time their mistake was they recorded the minutes of their mreetings and they fell out with the whistle blower .

Darragh29

Darsad wrote: »

The SIMI are loosing dealers by the bucket load and many are refusing to renew their membership because they are simply not happy with the SIMI and blame them for inaction over the current market situation particuarly their inability to foresee or influence the changes brought about by CO2 taxation policies and so I would imagine they would not really be in a position to force any issues.

The competition authority are happy to have the general public think that these dealers were ripping them off to the tune of thousands which is simply not the case (and this is where I get lynched ). I do not condone what these dealers were doing but they were simply maintaining a margain
on deals as there were dealers out there chasing rebates from distributors who were prepared to sell cars at or in some cases below cost and it made the playing field uneven for the smaller or rural dealers.Dont for a minute think it was only Citroen dealers all marques have dealer comittees or bodies that meet from time to time their mistake was they recorded the minutes of their mreetings and they fell out with the whistle blower .

I heard this about the SIMI losing membership. Apparently their recent TV campaign was a knee jerk response to appease members who were giving feedback that the SIMI was not being proactive enough with regard to the current collapse in the industry.

I've no doubt that price fixing is going on all over the place, the mistake made by Gowan as mentioned above is that the strategy was committed to paper...

245

Darsad wrote: »

The SIMI are loosing dealers by the bucket load and many are refusing to renew their membership because they are simply not happy with the SIMI and blame them for inaction over the current market situation particuarly their inability to foresee or influence the changes brought about by CO2 taxation policies and so I would imagine they would not really be in a position to force any issues.
.

The SIMI negotiated a 6 month delay in the introduction of the emissions-based VRT changes so that dealers would have the chance to offload the cars that were likely to sell less well under the new system (like the 1.4 petrol Focus). Seemed like such a good idea at the time, I'm sure.

Darsad

245 wrote: »

The SIMI negotiated a 6 month delay in the introduction of the emissions-based VRT changes so that dealers would have the chance to offload the cars that were likely to sell less well under the new system (like the 1.4 petrol Focus). Seemed like such a good idea at the time, I'm sure.

There was no negotiation this system was dumped on everybody because it was part of the deal Bertie and Cowen did with the greens to stay in Gov.The revenue and dept of finance were excluded from these meetings and there was complete shock across these depts at what was agreed as it was instantly apparant the there would be a massive loss in revenue.
All the indications were that the CO2 system to be adopted would be banded within the engine CC catagory similar to that used for road tax.
This would have allowed for a gradual introduction of CO2 taxation and not resulted in the problems we see today with disparaties between pre and post July valuations.The most environmentally friendly country in Europe Switzerland rejected full CO2 taxation as we introduced due to
economic concerns.