Know Your Rules - Golf Forum Quiz

ShriekingSheet

Post up a tricky scenario that you know the solution to and see if others can get it right. Might be a good way for everyone to learn a bit more about the rules.

Make sure you know the exact ruling as per the rules of golf or the decisions book!

Example
I slice a drive into a pond with red stakes on the right side of the fairway. The point where the ball last crossed the hazard is a particularly bad patch of thick, deep rough. Rather than drop the ball here, I see that on the far side of the pond is a fairway and much lighter rough. This is not on a line between the flag and my ball, but much further right.

I drop the ball on the far side of the pond, two club lengths from a point on the hazard line that is no nearer to the hole than where my ball originally crossed the hazard.
Is this legal?

-Answer: Yes, as per the rules of golf: "If your ball is in a lateral water hazard (red stakes and/or lines)... under penalty of one stroke, you may drop within two club-lengths of, and
not nearer the hole than: ...a point on the opposite side of the hazard equidistant to the hole from the point where the ball last crossed the margin."



So I'll start us off with an easy one...

There's a small stream (red stakes) at the back of a par 3, running perpendicular to the hole. I fly the ball over the green and it plugs in the far bank of the stream, within the red stakes of the hazard. There is a bridge crossing the stream about 50 yards away. Can I drop on the near side of the hazard even though that would be much closer to the hole than where the ball is currently lying, or must I drop on the far side?

Obni

I would think the location of a ball within a hazard becomes irrelevant once you opt to take a penalty drop. All that then matters is the point at which it crossed the boundary of the hazard, not where the ball finally came to rest. So I would judge that you can drop it on the green-side of the stream if you can drop it no nearer the hole than the point at which the ball crossed the boundary.

Obni

By the way, my above answer might change depending on how much we're playing for! :rolleyes:

ShriekingSheet

Obni wrote: »

I would think the location of a ball within a hazard becomes irrelevant once you opt to take a penalty drop. All that then matters is the point at which it crossed the boundary of the hazard, not where the ball finally came to rest. So I would judge that you can drop it on the green-side of the stream if you can drop it no nearer the hole than the point at which the ball crossed the boundary.

Obni wrote: »

By the way, my above answer might change depending on how much we're playing for! :rolleyes:

Haha, yeah spot on. Happened a mate of mine in a Junior Cup match. The guy insisted on him dropping the far side and then complained when my mate insisted on waiting for a ruling.

Anyone got any other scenarios?

stockdam

Ok an easy one.......

You hit a ball into a bunker but when you get there it is completely full of water but you can't see your ball as the water is too dirty; but you are sure that your ball went in.........what are your options.

Obni

In the spirit of not googling the answer I would guess....

1. The hazard is not a staked hazard, so being almost certain your ball is in the hazard is not enough.
2. Relief from water in a bunker only applies after you find the ball
3. If you don't find the ball, then declare it lost and play last shot again +1 penalty stroke.

PhilipMarlowe

A bunker is a hazard, it doesn't need to be staked or marked...
There's a difficulty in not knowing where the ball is in the bunker because you would be able to drop in the bunker without penalty once you are not nearer the hole...
Assuming the bunker was completely full you would be entitled to drop behind the bunker under 1 stroke penalty, don't need to find the original or if you had room to drop at the back of the bunker you could drop in the bunker without penalty. I don't think you'd be penalised for not being able to find the original.

Obni

I mentioned the stakes because I know if a ball is known (or almost certain) to have been lost in a water hazard, then you proceed under penalty without finding the ball.
However, if you can't find a ball in that bunker is it simply lost (proceed under penalty) or is it covered by abnormal conditions because it's flooded (proceed without penalty).

stockdam

I agree with Licksy.

If you are certain that the ball went into the bunker then it cannot be lost (a ball can't be lost in a hazard).

If the ball is in water then you can drop it out but it must remain in the bunker and not closer to the hole.

If it's not possible to drop it in the bunker and be further from the hole then the ball must be dropped outside of the bunker, not closer to the hole with a one shot penalty.

It always seems unfair to me that you must take a penalty shot if the bunker is completely full of water.

Obni

stockdam wrote: »

It always seems unfair to me that you must take a penalty shot if the bunker is completely full of water.

That's the very point I'm raising. If it's regarded as abnormal conditions then the drop from a bunker would be without penalty. I think(?)

stockdam

No as far as I know you have to drop under penalty even though it's not normal for a bunker to be full of water.

Obni

I gave in and checked the R&A rules.

Abnormal Ground Conditions
An “abnormal ground condition” is any casual water, ground under repair or
hole, cast or runway on the course made by a burrowing animal, a reptile
or a bird.

25-1 c. Ball in Abnormal Ground Condition Not Found
Player may substitute a ball without penalty for the lost ball, but must then proceed under rule 25-1 b, which is dropping without penalty in the shallowest water in the bunker or under penalty outside the bunker.

So, in answer to the OP, your options are
1. Drop another ball without penalty in the flooded bunker
2. Drop under penalty outside the bunker.

Obni

My turn, based on real events.

Doubles matchplay, early in the year, placing on fairways, drop in rough.
Team A players 1 & 2 drive safely down a par 4 fairway.
Team B player 1 knocks a drive down into heavy rough and player 2 booms one out of bounds, follows it with a provisional OB, and doesn't bother playing a third for 5 off the tee.
All four players look for the Team B player 1 ball. After a couple of minutes Team A player 2 cries 'Here it is!'. The others turns round to see the idiot holding the ball in his hand and smiling at his good deed. :eek:

How should you proceed under the rules of golf?
(Team A player 1 was me, btw).

WHIP IT!

Obni wrote: »

My turn, based on real events.

Doubles matchplay, early in the year, placing on fairways, drop in rough.
Team A players 1 & 2 drive safely down a par 4 fairway.
Team B player 1 knocks a drive down into heavy rough and player 2 booms one out of bounds, follows it with a provisional OB, and doesn't bother playing a third for 5 off the tee.
All four players look for the Team B player 1 ball. After a couple of minutes Team A player 2 cries 'Here it is!'. The others turns round to see the idiot holding the ball in his hand and smiling at his good deed. :eek:

How should you proceed under the rules of golf?
(Team A player 1 was me, btw).

I would presume Team B cannot be penalised as they haven't done anything wrong - would this fall under the "playing the wrong ball" rule, and result in a penalty for Team A?

PhilipMarlowe

Because you were looking for his ball there couldn't be a penalty involved because you moved it. You have to replace it where it originally lay and that is all... you could have kicked it by accident while searching or stepped on it or something, it amounts to the same thing.
Once you replace it then he can lift, clean and drop etc under the winter rules.

fullstop

WHIP IT! wrote: »

I would presume Team B cannot be penalised as they haven't done anything wrong - would this fall under the "playing the wrong ball" rule, and result in a penalty for Team A?

He didn't play the ball. Replace ball without penalty

ShriekingSheet

A guy hits a drive into very thick rough and plays a provisional just in case. He finds the first ball buried in the rough but decides it is unplayable.

The rules state that when a player declares a ball unplayable he can either (a) drop two club lengths under 1 stroke penalty, (b) go back on the line of the flag and ball under penalty or (c) play the shot again under the usual penalty.

The player decides (a) and (b) won't get him out of trouble so picks up the ball and plays his provisional from the fairway, hitting 4.



What has he done wrong here and what's the penalty??

FlutterinBantam

Played the wrong ball and unless he corrects the situation DQ

Otherwise 2 shot penalty

Obni

Licksy wrote: »

Because you were looking for his ball there couldn't be a penalty involved because you moved it. You have to replace it where it originally lay and that is all... you could have kicked it by accident while searching or stepped on it or something, it amounts to the same thing.
Once you replace it then he can lift, clean and drop etc under the winter rules.

This is what caused heated debate later in the clubhouse.
If you disturb a players ball while looking for it, it can be replaced without penalty to anyone. But as team A player 1 had found the ball, before he picked it up, then he was no longer looking for it. The ball is simply a ball in play. By picking up the ball he had moved an opponent's ball and the penalty is 1 stroke. The key thing is that it is only applied to the team A player that touched the ball, not his Team A partner. The ball is then replaced by team B and is played without penalty.
We (Team A) didn't know the rule at the time, nor the correct penalty, so we just conceded the hole to avoid the hassle.

Obni

FlutterinBantam wrote: »

Played the wrong ball and unless he corrects the situation DQ

Otherwise 2 shot penalty

+1

PhilipMarlowe

Obni wrote: »

This is what caused heated debate later in the clubhouse.
If you disturb a players ball while looking for it, it can be replaced without penalty to anyone. But as team A player 1 had found the ball, before he picked it up, then he was no longer looking for it. The ball is simply a ball in play. By picking up the ball he had moved an opponent's ball and the penalty is 1 stroke. The key thing is that it is only applied to the team A player that touched the ball, not his Team A partner. The ball is then replaced by team B and is played without penalty.
We (Team A) didn't know the rule at the time, nor the correct penalty, so we just conceded the hole to avoid the hassle.

Oh ok..
When you are looking for an opponents ball, and you find a ball, it's always better to call them over and let them identify it rather than picking it up or rotating it to see a number etc... but you know this now

Had you just found a ball and picked it up and then asked if it was theirs, I don't think that you would be subject to a penalty because technically you wouldn't be sure that it was theirs until they identified it, though it was kinda a weird thing to do

Obni

Licksy wrote: »

... though it was kinda a weird thing to do

I have a kinda weird doubles matchplay partner

OilBeefHooked2

Obni wrote: »

I have a kinda weird doubles matchplay partner

Maybe he's not so "weird" afterall.
Cause afaik your allowed pick the ball up for identification and as long as he replaced the ball in the correct spot, then I dont see how he has incurred any penalty.

Obni

I don't believe you are allowed to pick up your opponents ball, just your own. Open to too many abuses if you could screw around with an opponent's ball.

fullstop

david-k wrote: »

Maybe he's not so "weird" afterall.
Cause afaik your allowed pick the ball up for identification and as long as he replaced the ball in the correct spot, then I dont see how he has incurred any penalty.

No no no! If you want to pick up a ball to identify it, you must first make your intentions known to your playing partners, mark the position of the ball with a tee and then pick up the ball with your thumb and index finger and replace it in the exact same poition.
In an All-ireland mied foursomes match 2 years ago, we had come down to the deciding match and there was a ball missing in the right rough, from the pair from our club. After a few minutes, the male finds it, picks it up without telling anyone and drops it back where it was from about a foot in the air. His opponent happend to be an ireland international and pulled him on it straight away. They agreed to play out the hole and seek a ruling. Our pair won the hole to win the match, which led to an embarrassing situation of GUI officials and team captains being called to the course the following week to replicate the situation and our pair ended up losing the hole for breaking the rule.

ShriekingSheet

fullstop wrote: »

They agreed to play out the hole and seek a ruling. Our pair won the hole to win the match, which led to an embarrassing situation of GUI officials and team captains being called to the course the following week to replicate the situation and our pair ended up losing the hole for breaking the rule.

Wow! Never heard that before. Sounds unbelievably OTT. Surely a written version of events could have been agreed upon by parties involved and the GUI/R&A could have made a ruling based on that??

Mister Sifter

ShriekingSheet wrote: »

Wow! Never heard that before. Sounds unbelievably OTT. Surely a written version of events could have been agreed upon by parties involved and the GUI/R&A could have made a ruling based on that??

I hope that never happens to you sheet... the letter to the GUi would be about 115 pages long... :D

Does indeed sound ridiculous!

ShriekingSheet

Graeme1982 wrote: »

I hope that never happens to you sheet... the letter to the GUi would be about 115 pages long... :D

Does indeed sound ridiculous!

I'm drafting a template of my complaint as we speak to save time in such an eventuality

PhilipMarlowe

It does sound bizarre that they had to re-create the incident... like in the O.J. Simpson trial
It was fairly cut and dry to me anyway, picking up without marking it first is never a good idea and dropping it back from a foot only compounded the mistake. Do players get these bad habits from too much casual golf where they don't follow the rules strictly and then can't deal properly in full-on competition? Or do they just never know the proper procedure?

Mister Sifter

ShriekingSheet wrote: »

I'm drafting a template of my complaint as we speak to save time in such an eventuality

Mister Sifter

Licksy wrote: »

It does sound bizarre that they had to re-create the incident... like in the O.J. Simpson trial
It was fairly cut and dry to me anyway, picking up without marking it first is never a good idea and dropping it back from a foot only compounded the mistake. Do players get these bad habits from too much casual golf where they don't follow the rules strictly and then can't deal properly in full-on competition? Or do they just never know the proper procedure?

I think players have just never been pulled up on the proper procedure.


I played behind a guy earlier this year who knocked his ball OB, then took a drop about halfway up the fairway and played from there. I questioned it a few tee-boxes later and he and his three playing partners all thought he'd done the right thing. I wouldn't have minded but the guy in question played off 10 and his three partners were below 15 too. I was amazed that none of them knew the rule.

ShriekingSheet

Licksy wrote: »

Do players get these bad habits from too much casual golf where they don't follow the rules strictly and then can't deal properly in full-on competition? Or do they just never know the proper procedure?

I think you hit the nail on the head here. I personally feel uncomfortable with guys who seek to adhere percisely to the rulebook in a casual round. I pretty much show complete disregard for the rules when playing non-comp rounds. Happy to throw a ball down wherever in most instances.

Though I play enough competitive golf to keep a handle on the rules I can see how people who play a majority of casual/social golf can easily let this effect their behaviour in a dubious situation in competition.

And as for never knowing the proper procedure - it is a pain in the arse to actually read the rule book, but I'm a huge fan of the idea of playing with more experienced golfers and learning as you go.

Mister Sifter

This ain't so much a rule query, more a "what would you have done?" type question...

I played a Scratch Cup in September with two members of a club. The guy who's card i was marking was having a nightmare. But, towards the end of the round i noticed that when i was asking 'what did you have there?' he was giving me a doctored score... i.e. he said 6, when it was really a 7.

I kinda let this slide as he was heading for a cricket score, but on the 17th i'd just had enough of it and questioned him. I'm normally pretty good at keeping track of the score of the person who i'm marking, but i like to ask anyway just out of courtesy and to make sure i'm right.

Anyway, walking off the 17th tee he asked to see his card. I handed it over and he claimed to have been 1 shot better on 2 holes on the front nine than what i had him down for. I voiced up at this point, but he just kept saying i was wrong. The other guy in the group just kept quiet.

It was heading for an argument so in the end i just said 'cool, if you say you had that score then i'll change it'. As i say, he wasn't going to win anything anyway. That said, I was pretty disgusted by the whole thing. The last 2 holes i hardly said a word, exchanged pleasantaries after the 18th and that was that. Despite constant attempted brown nosing by him. He kept back-tracking, saying things like 'i'll just NR anyway', but i just kept saying 'if you say you had that score then fair enough, that's what i'll put down.'

It wasn't my home club, but it was his so in the end i didn't report him or say anything to anyone. I left for home with a real sick feeling about what had happened. I was also really pissed off at myself later for not having had the balls to report him or do something.

Fact was though that i wasn't too sure about what i should have done. i.e the procedure in such a situation.

slumped

Graeme1982 wrote: »

This ain't so much a rule query, more a "what would you have done?" type question...

I played a Scratch Cup in September with two members of a club. The guy who's card i was marking was having a nightmare. But, towards the end of the round i noticed that when i was asking 'what did you have there?' he was giving me a doctored score... i.e. he said 6, when it was really a 7.

I kinda let this slide as he was heading for a cricket score, but on the 17th i'd just had enough of it and questioned him. I'm normally pretty good at keeping track of the score of the person who i'm marking, but i like to ask anyway just out of courtesy and to make sure i'm right.

Anyway, walking off the 17th tee he asked to see his card. I handed it over and he claimed to have been 1 shot better on 2 holes on the front nine than what i had him down for. I voiced up at this point, but he just kept saying i was wrong. The other guy in the group just kept quiet.

It was heading for an argument so in the end i just said 'cool, if you say you had that score then i'll change it'. As i say, he wasn't going to win anything anyway. That said, I was pretty disgusted by the whole thing. The last 2 holes i hardly said a word, exchanged pleasantaries after the 18th and that was that. Despite constant attempted brown nosing by him. He kept back-tracking, saying things like 'i'll just NR anyway', but i just kept saying 'if you say you had that score then fair enough, that's what i'll put down.'

It wasn't my home club, but it was his so in the end i didn't report him or say anything to anyone. I left for home with a real sick feeling about what had happened. I was also really pissed off at myself later for not having had the balls to report him or do something.

Fact was though that i wasn't too sure about what i should have done. i.e the procedure in such a situation.

What would I have done?

Not signed his card and then a. leave it to see what he does or b. report him.

Me personally - not signed his card and then reported the incident to committee. Let them make up their mind. If it was a second or third time offence they could take action.

S

fullstop

ShriekingSheet wrote: »

Wow! Never heard that before. Sounds unbelievably OTT. Surely a written version of events could have been agreed upon by parties involved and the GUI/R&A could have made a ruling based on that??

Well most of our team wanted to just concede the match because we knew he was in the wrong. I'm pretty sure he knew he was too but he's a headstrong idiot and just wouldn't back down. Cost us the overall match 3-2 and the team that beat us went on to win Ulster

Mister Sifter

slumped wrote: »

What would I have done?

Not signed his card and then a. leave it to see what he does or b. report him.

Me personally - not signed his card and then reported the incident to committee. Let them make up their mind. If it was a second or third time offence they could take action.

S

I think if i'd said i wasn't signing the card he would have said he was NR-ing anyway. You're right though, it should've been reported i think, as i was 100% certain about his scores. If it had been in my own club i think i'd have handled it better.

ShriekingSheet

Graeme1982 wrote: »

I think if i'd said i wasn't signing the card he would have said he was NR-ing anyway. You're right though, it should've been reported i think, as i was 100% certain about his scores. If it had been in my own club i think i'd have handled it better.

I would've taken a 4 iron to his face. Is GBH a stroke penalty?

His dead carcus would most likely be considered an immovable obstruction so you'd be grand if he fell on your ball or anything...

Obni

I always feel that if you are marking someone's card then it is your responsibility to be their scorer. Don't ask what score they had, tell them!
Before teeing off on the next hole, I always mark the opponent's card after saying '5, OK?' or 'par, Frank?'
(If your playing partner is not called Frank, you can substitute another name here :rolleyes:)
Any disagreement and I just ask them to walk me through the shots. Gets harder if you don't mark it every hole, but it saves a lot of trouble with chancers like the guy you encountered.

stevire

Situation:

You hit a shot into the rough, the ball is a foot length or so away from the ball and is intefering with your stance...

What's your options (if any)?

(Stenson had this situation in the Nedbank....)

ShriekingSheet

stevire wrote: »

Situation:

You hit a shot into the rough, the ball is a foot length or so away from the ball and is intefering with your stance...

What's your options (if any)?

(Stenson had this situation in the Nedbank....)

Did you mean your opponents ball is interfering with your stance?

If so, without checking the book, I'd imagine your opponent would pick up his ball (marking it with a tee) holding it between his forefinger and thumb and replace it in the same position without cleaning it, after your shot.

I've definitely seen this done on tour in a bunker - but not 100% otherwise.

stevire

Sh*te, messed that situation up!!

This is what I meant

Situation:

You hit a shot into the rough, the ball is a foot length or so away from an immovable obstruction (sprinkler, car path etc.) and is intefering with your stance...

fullstop

You can play it as it lies if you want or else take a free drop