Croke Park for Rugby...???

SalthillGuy

I was at the All Black game in Croke Park.
I think Croke Park is totally unsuitable for a rugby game.
It is too big, too far away from play.
I was at the back of the Lower Cusack. I spent most of the time looking at the monitor.
It takes away from the atmosphere.

Tarakiwa

I have enjoyed the handful of games that I have attended.
I think there there s more noise there than there was in Lansdowne Road.

That said - I will be just as happy to go back to the new stadium!

il gatto

Irish rugby's tenure at Croker has coincided with a period of flux and poor performances that have nothing to do with what's a fantastic venue. Nobody disliked it when it was against France and England in 2007. Most people were well impressed with the place. It's hard to love a place when you're watching a team with huge potential putting in consistantly below par performances and the crowd has f all to shout about.

old boy

athmosphere is crowd induced, it seem to me that sizable amount of the crowd were there to see kidney and more so o gara make blunders so as to have them replaced, by who i cannot fathom out come on people this a new era in irish rugby support it not knock it a nation of begrudgers is what we have become, how many of the knockers who reguarly post on this forum have SUCESSFULLY coached at any level or any sport,

murphym7

il gatto wrote: »

Irish rugby's tenure at Croker has coincided with a period of flux and poor performances that have nothing to do with what's a fantastic venue. Nobody disliked it when it was against France and England in 2007. Most people were well impressed with the place. It's hard to love a place when you're watching a team with huge potential putting in consistantly below par performances and the crowd has f all to shout about.

Well said.

I nearly lost the run of myself there for a second and was about to agree that the stadium is to blame. Totally not the case.

Serenity Now!

SalthillGuy wrote: »

I was at the All Black game in Croke Park.
I think Croke Park is totally unsuitable for a rugby game.
It is too big, too far away from play.
I was at the back of the Lower Cusack. I spent most of the time looking at the monitor.
It takes away from the atmosphere.

This logic would make Twickenham unsuitable for a rugby game.

SalthillGuy

Ah.... maybe that's their problem.

Crash

old boy wrote: »

athmosphere is crowd induced, it seem to me that sizable amount of the crowd were there to see kidney and more so o gara make blunders so as to have them replaced, by who i cannot fathom out come on people this a new era in irish rugby support it not knock it a nation of begrudgers is what we have become, how many of the knockers who reguarly post on this forum have SUCESSFULLY coached at any level or any sport,

That has to be the biggest pile of tosh ever posted on this forum. Congrats.

Serenity Now!

Going Forward wrote: »

That has to be the biggest pile of tosh ever posted on this forum. Congrats.

Almost as silly as saying that a concrete (very cramped) stadium doesn't automatically deliver an 'atmosphere'?

The best feature of Croke Park is the pitch surface.
The rest? Average apart from the capacity, not much to write home about.
Location? Close to the city centre but with bugger all around it.
Facilities for the punter who goes the game? Great if you're a premium level ticket holder. Disappointing if not.

All this of course, has sweet eff all to do with the atmosphere of when a game is playing. The crowd need something to shout about, thats all.
Parc des Princes has a playing field even further from the front row. Does this affect the atmosphere? Does it balls.

I thought even with the game against the NZers going as it was, the crowd were giving it loads.

RoyMcC

My first ever visit to Croke Park last Saturday Top of the Hogan Stand. Thoroughly enjoyed everything about it.

If you're in a 65,000+ crowd then not everybody is physically able to get close to the action like (say) at the RDS. And in quiet passages of play then yes, the atmosphere is a little dead. But not an issue when the greens were going forward, or when the little impromptu battles broke out!

Will the new Landsdowne Road offer more? What puzzles me is the economics of maintaining two state-of-the-art stadiums in the city. I wonder if the same decision(s) would be taken in today's climate.

Crash

Serenity Now! wrote: »

Almost as silly as saying that a concrete (very cramped) stadium doesn't automatically deliver an 'atmosphere'?

The best feature of Croke Park is the pitch surface.
The rest? Average apart from the capacity, not much to write home about.
Location? Close to the city centre but with bugger all around it.
Facilities for the punter who goes the game? Great if you're a premium level ticket holder. Disappointing if not.

All this of course, has sweet eff all to do with the atmosphere of when a game is playing. The crowd need something to shout about, thats all.
Parc des Princes has a playing field even further from the front row. Does this affect the atmosphere? Does it balls.

I thought even with the game against the NZers going as it was, the crowd were giving it loads.

Oh I completely agree. I mean, I do have things I dislike about Croker - I never feel quite as close to the action as I felt in Lansdowne, that sorta thing - but to be honest, at the AB's match I thought the atmosphere was great until it just hit a certain point. Which was inevitable really, and in no way the fault of the stadium :P

edit: apologies, to clarify my previous post, the tosh part was everything after commenting on how atmosphere was crowd induced. Should have made that clearer.

Serenity Now!

RoyMcC wrote: »

Will the new Landsdowne Road offer more? What puzzles me is the economics of maintaining two state-of-the-art stadiums in the city. I wonder if the same decision(s) would be taken in today's climate.

Nobody is "maintaining" two stadia after April 2010 when Lansdowne Road has been completed.

The only sporting body that will hurting financially will be the GAA as they lose potential earnings from not hosting up to 10 games of rugby union/soccer per year.

SalthillGuy

imo the big games (70,000+) will still be played at Croke Park.
The smaller ones will be at another venue.

RoyMcC

Serenity Now! wrote: »

Nobody is "maintaining" two stadia after April 2010 when Lansdowne Road has been completed.

The only sporting body that will hurting financially will be the GAA as they lose potential earnings from not hosting up to 10 games of rugby union/soccer per year.

But presumably the IRFU/FAI are maintaining Landsdowne Road? Not sure of the exact arrangements. So, much the same total income to cover perhaps twice the costs, in simplistic terms. I just wonder if it was entirely necessary to go down this road.

Serenity Now!

RoyMcC wrote: »

But presumably the IRFU/FAI are maintaining Landsdowne Road? Not sure of the exact arrangements. So, much the same total income to cover perhaps twice the costs, in simplistic terms. I just wonder if it was entirely necessary to go down this road.

Yes it is entirely necessary.
The opening of Croke Park was temporary and always has been. Lansdowne badly needed upgrading and will be used for rugby union and soccer games where it will earn for rugby union and soccer.
If the two stadia were municipally run, it would then be fiscally stupid to have two in existance.
As it happens, they're not.

Salthillguy, don't count on Croke Park still being used for "big games" (what "small" games are there these days, anyway?).

RugbyFanatic

Does anyone know if the builders of the new Lansdowne made an effort to ensure Acoustic wise the building is state of the art?

A lot of new stadiums are built in such a way that the crowd's cheering is projected louder was watching a documentary on the new Wembley that mentioned this

Crash

I doubt the financial gain of a large attendance in Croker would be larger than a full attendance in the smaller Lansdowne, due to rent etc.

RoyMcC

Serenity Now! wrote: »

Yes it is entirely necessary.
The opening of Croke Park was temporary and always has been. Lansdowne badly needed upgrading and will be used for rugby union and soccer games where it will earn for rugby union and soccer.
If the two stadia were municipally run, it would then be fiscally stupid to have two in existance.
As it happens, they're not.

Salthillguy, don't count on Croke Park still being used for "big games" (what "small" games are there these days, anyway?).

Righto thanks. But I'll still be interested to see if Landsdowne Road meets the income projections that were set in more comfortable times and therefore earns.

Plus the two stadiums will also presumably be in competition to host other major events, concerts etc. Which may become fewer, who knows.

Crash

Actually I think Lansdowne could benefit quite well to be honest - I've been to numerous gigs in Croke Park where they were half empty - Bon Jovi iirc was the worst, we ended up with about 8 free tickets between 3 of us because no one wanted them. Whereas Lansdowne would be much easier to fill and guarantee a profit.

old boy

Going Forward wrote: »

That has to be the biggest pile of tosh ever posted on this forum. Congrats.

its not tosh its the truth, which unfortunatly is often bitter

Inquitus

There's definately some Schadenfreude Irish Fans out there who wouldn't be too upset to see Kidney fail for whatever reason.

Serenity Now!

RoyMcC wrote: »

Righto thanks. But I'll still be interested to see if Landsdowne Road meets the income projections that were set in more comfortable times and therefore earns.

Plus the two stadiums will also presumably be in competition to host other major events, concerts etc. Which may become fewer, who knows.

I'll confidently predict Lansdowne will be packed every game it stages. 3 concerts per year will also be a nice addition.
It has been very professionally planned after reading through the LRDC plans and especially judging by the progress in the co-ordination of the building project so far.

Legion2008

SalthillGuy wrote: »

imo the big games (70,000+) will still be played at Croke Park.
The smaller ones will be at another venue.

Unfortunately I doubt this will be possible .... anybody who bought 10 year tickets or corporate boxes would be extremely annoyed ... also they'll need the revenue to start paying back the various loans taken to build lansdowne so it wouldn't make sense to be paying the GAA 2million a game .....

A pity as with 25K or so less seats it will make it more difficult for genuine fans to get to the games.

il gatto

Saturday's game, although vital and of great interest to anyone into rugby, was not hyped up or considered a must see by alot of the people who only take note of the big events. Even so there was 68,000 at it. Lansdowne would've deprived 18,000 people of a ticket. That can't be good.
The majority of Ireland matches are against the 6N teams, 3N teams and Argentina. With the exception of the odd random test against the PI, Canada etc. Lansdowne simply is not big enough for the demand on tickets. Even the matches against Italy and Scotland, after a brutal WC and with people baying for EOS' blood, had an attendence around the 75,000 mark.
As far as money is concerned, Lansdowne still doesn't stack up. Taking an average ticket price of €90 (nominal), a full Lansdowne is worth €4.5million. A full Croke Park is worth €7.5million. The IRFU stand to lose around €1million per match even at an average of €90 per ticket.
http://www.independent.ie/national-news/just-the-ticket----for-irfu-88120.html
Found this link which states something similar.

RugbyFanatic

Inquitus wrote: »

There's definately some Schadenfreude Irish Fans out there who wouldn't be too upset to see Kidney fail for whatever reason.

I completely disagree with that statement why would anyone want Kidney and the Irish team to fail? Who enjoys losing?

il gatto

RugbyFanatic wrote: »

I completely disagree with that statement why would anyone want Kidney and the Irish team to fail? Who enjoys losing?

Scotland?:pac:

old boy

it is a lot easyer to lose than to win, both are a habit

cooperguy

Only problem with the new Lansdowne is that it isnt even near big enough. The games in Corke park all came close to selling out. The Capacity is 82,000. Lansdowne Road is only going to be something like 40 or 50,000. Thats alot of people not getting tickets!

SalthillGuy

I think it is a given that Lansdowne will be packed, BUT greed (aka extra capacity) will move some of the games to Croke Park.

crisco10

SalthillGuy wrote: »

I think it is a given that Lansdowne will be packed, BUT greed (aka extra capacity) will move some of the games to Croke Park.

Would the GAA let that happen tho? I was pretty sure this arrangement is temporary and was only agreed to by a lot of hardcore GAA execs because it was temporary.

With regard to the large attendances in croker, i think a lot of people are going to croker because of the novelty value as well. Although I do think LR may be a little small for the rugby but perfect for the soccer..

Serenity Now!

SalthillGuy wrote: »

I think it is a given that Lansdowne will be packed, BUT greed (aka extra capacity) will move some of the games to Croke Park.

Nah.
The GAA will up the rent since its a favour in extension of their original agreement and it will not make financial sense to play at Croke Park.

The agreement applies to the construction time of Lansdowne Rd. Once back in Lansdowne, you'll find it very hard to tempt the IRFU, for one, away from running games in their own stadium. The only organisation losing out will be the GAA as they lose millions in ground rental income.

SalthillGuy

People have been going to Croke Park in thousands for many years. Once you site through 15 minutes of a rugby match there, the novelty quickly wears off.

The recent soccer international was a small game.
That would have been more suited to LR.

Serious management teams will want a full house (LR), rather than a partially full Croke Park.
Just my opinion.......

Diamondmaker

I had great seats to France and Eng last year but did not feel part of the action as I did in LDR in similar seats.

Im a terrace guy and enjoy the fact that a player can actually hear me when I shout ( not that it matters a sh1t of course but when everyone does in unison, that is called home advantage! ). I dont have the same urge to shout and cheer when the action is further away.

Atmosphere is an intangiable thing and the regular LDR supporters are a fickle group Id say, I cant wait until new LDR, that is the home, the world renowned atmosphere capital of rugby union.

I saw Irl Vs Oz in the Telstra in Melb in June, again great seast, but the distance from the action affected my enjoyment.

will there be terrace in LDR 2 ??

Colm_OReilly

Speaking of LDR, how difficult will it actually be to secure tickets for games there? Will it just be a case of Supporter's Club members paying more (say €100 instead of €80) or are we talking blood from a turnip here?

Serenity Now!

Colm_OReilly wrote: »

Speaking of LDR, how difficult will it actually be to secure tickets for games there? Will it just be a case of Supporter's Club members paying more (say €100 instead of €80) or are we talking blood from a turnip here?

It will be just as difficult to get tickets only this time GAA members holding back their own allocation will be a thing of the past.

I don't see why you think it would be a possibility that the Irish Rugby Supporters Club would be paying 100 euros by the way........

And, no, Diamondmaker, there are no terraces in the new Lansdowne Road. Another expense chopped when the stadium is open: Temporary Seating.

Have a look at the website for the development. There's some good images to be seen there too.

cashmni1

Serenity Now! wrote: »

Almost as silly as saying that a concrete (very cramped) stadium doesn't automatically deliver an 'atmosphere'?

The best feature of Croke Park is the pitch surface.
The rest? Average apart from the capacity, not much to write home about.
Location? Close to the city centre but with bugger all around it.
Facilities for the punter who goes the game? Great if you're a premium level ticket holder. Disappointing if not.

All this of course, has sweet eff all to do with the atmosphere of when a game is playing. The crowd need something to shout about, thats all.
Parc des Princes has a playing field even further from the front row. Does this affect the atmosphere? Does it balls.

I thought even with the game against the NZers going as it was, the crowd were giving it loads.

I have to disagree with you there, Croke Park is an exelent staduim.
How do you make out that one of the most modern stadiums in Europe is average for the punter?
You can get in and out easily, take a p1ss with out holding your breath, get a pint/burger/hotdog/.... @ half time, anywhere in the stadium, and what do you expect to be around it? It is the city center with great access and generally good craic walking down to the stadium.
Anyway, having said all that, it is not right for rugby. You are too far away from the action. I was in the lower Davin stand last Sat. and also spent time looking @ the video wall.
I know and appricate the fact that we didn't have much to shout about, but I do feel that LR will be much better, or at least easier to get a crowd going.

Serenity Now!

cashmni1 wrote: »

I have to disagree with you there, Croke Park is an exelent staduim.
How do you make out that one of the most modern stadiums in Europe is average for the punter?

I'll tell you why:

cashmni1 wrote: »

You can get in and out easily

In the East and West sides yes. The terraces are disgracefully cramped.

cashmni1 wrote: »

take a p1ss with out holding your breath

Toilets. Okay, plus one for the GAA then.

cashmni1 wrote: »

get a pint/burger/hotdog/.... @ half time, anywhere in the stadium

You can queue and queue to get overpriced and substandard hot-dogs/burgers. Ever been to Twickenham? Even Ballymore in Brisbane? The food at Croke Park available to the non-premium specatator is disgracefully charged at Guillebaud rates yet barely good enough for a kids party.

cashmni1 wrote: »

and what do you expect to be around it? It is the city center with great access and generally good craic walking down to the stadium

Compared to the walk to Lansdowne, there is nothing catered for the rugby crowds on the way to Croke Park. Nada.

The best things about Croke Pk are its playing surface, its premium levels/corporate facilities and thats about it really. Its just a stadium. Only factor making it a 'modern' stadium is the fact that it was made recently.

The sooner rugby union goes home to Lansdowne, the better. If you want "modern" facilities and stadia, wait til you see how THAT place is gonna turn out.

premierstone

Serenity Now! wrote: »

If you want "modern" facilities and stadia, wait til you see how THAT place is gonna turn out.

LOL jaysus I hope your not in for a major dissapointment Serenity, you do know the FAI are involved

themont85

My top 5 of stadiums i've been to;

1)Millenium Stadium
2)Ford Field-Detroit
3)Croker
4)Twickers
5)Lansdowne(some good atmospheres over the years and i miss the old terraces)

While Croker is really great, its not a rugby ground. The Millenium imo is incredible- location, atmosphere and viewing wise.

Serenity Now!

premierstone wrote: »

LOL jaysus I hope your not in for a major dissapointment Serenity, you do know the FAI are involved

The development is headed by IRFU's ex director of corporate affairs so I'd actually trust it as an IRFU operation

Serenity Now!

themont85 wrote: »

My top 5 of stadiums i've been to;

1)Millenium Stadium
2)Ford Field-Detroit
3)Croker
4)Twickers
5)Lansdowne(some good atmospheres over the years and i miss the old terraces)

While Croker is really great, its not a rugby ground. The Millenium imo is incredible- location, atmosphere and viewing wise.

The Millenium is the equivalent of having a stadium alongside Grafton St. Brilliant spot.

My top five rugby stadia are:

1) SFS (Sydney Football Stadium)
2) Millenium Stadium
3) Wembley Stadium (Challenge Cup RL Final)
4) Stade de France
5) Twickenham

Have yet to get to Flaminio Stadium. Hear its a great 6N trip to an Italian game.

cashmni1

Serenity Now! wrote: »

I'll tell you why:

In the East and West sides yes. The terraces are disgracefully cramped.


Toilets. Okay, plus one for the GAA then.



You can queue and queue to get overpriced and substandard hot-dogs/burgers. Ever been to Twickenham? Even Ballymore in Brisbane? The food at Croke Park available to the non-premium specatator is disgracefully charged at Guillebaud rates yet barely good enough for a kids party.


Compared to the walk to Lansdowne, there is nothing catered for the rugby crowds on the way to Croke Park. Nada.

The best things about Croke Pk are its playing surface, its premium levels/corporate facilities and thats about it really. Its just a stadium. Only factor making it a 'modern' stadium is the fact that it was made recently.

The sooner rugby union goes home to Lansdowne, the better. If you want "modern" facilities and stadia, wait til you see how THAT place is gonna turn out.

OK the finer points are finer points. But still pound for pound CP is a fine stadium. End of.
Yes, i agree, not for rugby, but it was not designed for rugby. It was designed for GAA.
I cannot wait for LR to be developed. However, in the mean time, thats the stadium we have.
So, we will have to make do for a while.

toomevara

Serenity Now! wrote: »

The Millenium is the equivalent of having a stadium alongside Grafton St. Brilliant spot.

My top five rugby stadia are:

1) SFS (Sydney Football Stadium)
2) Millenium Stadium
3) Wembley Stadium (Challenge Cup RL Final)
4) Stade de France
5) Twickenham

Have yet to get to Flaminio Stadium. Hear its a great 6N trip to an Italian game.

Agreed, except I'd remove the SFS (unfortunately never had the pleasure) at the top and stick Thomond in there. Pound for pound, and on the right day the greatest sporting theatre, bar none, I've ever been in.

Serenity Now!

toomevara wrote: »

Agreed, except I'd remove the SFS (unfortunately never had the pleasure) at the top

How very dare you

Moore Park is the greatest sporting square mile about. SFS, SCG and a host of other sports and teams based there.
Heaven for me it was.

SalthillGuy

When we were kids, we play in the Swamp in Galway.
Down by the Claddagh.
Now that was a venue........ when men were men and pansy was the name of a flower.

pucan

Diamondmaker wrote: »

I saw Irl Vs Oz in the Telstra in Melb in June, again great seast, but the distance from the action affected my enjoyment.

Yep, homebush in sydney is **** for atmosphere too, been to Bledisloe, State of Origin, Grand finals. Very rarely does any kind of roar build up.
Aussies are a bit **** at making noise though.

Serenity Now! wrote: »

My top five rugby stadia are:

1) SFS (Sydney Football Stadium)

It is a great little stadium alright. Unfortunately the beer on tap is VB.
Also they are moving 1 waratahs game to homebush next year and 3 the following year. Fukcers. They are lucky to get 20K at most of the home games and they are moving to the 85K capacity olympic stadium that takes about an hour to get to and an hour to get out of. Numbers are going to be hit.

toomevara

pucan wrote: »

It is a great little stadium alright. Unfortunately the beer on tap is VB.
.

Love VB, does that make me some sort of freak?...hmmm... beautiful golden bitter coldness...

Koloman

Looks like you might have to get used to Croke Park for the big games at least! It makes sense in my opinion.

http://www.independent.ie/sport/gaelic-football/keep-croker-open-1593812.html

If this happens, could the IRFU not bid for the World Cup now that Croke Park may be made available on a permanent basis?

Koloman

It looks unlikely now.

Serenity Now!

Koloman wrote: »

It looks unlikely now.

The situation was stated quite categorically a couple of weekends ago when Gavin Cummiskey interviewed IRFU CEO, Philip Browne about the stadium.
Every question relevant and possible is answered in the interview. It was in the Irish Times. Sorry but I can't be arsed linking it.