Beating The Financial Property Crises

flyfishen

Here is some interesting info on what is happening in the USA in the
housing financial crises there is no money for mortgage out there and if there is, the credit criteria is so tight now ...its almost imposible to get finance .So they swapping property.
If you cant sell it swap it ..if you need to move to work swap it ...if you live in the north and want to retire south swap it ...
I am in a pickel myself so when I speak to Irish property agents they say oh no we dont do that.they wont even approach there client that clearly state moving overseas.
Here are some links that may be of intrest to everyone ..One web site claims to have swapped and closed 200 properties in the month of October......
This site is mostly agents ..they have got on the band wagon http://www.ree.com

These sites are private sellers
http://www.besthouseswap.com or http://goswap.org

This is just a few of the many and now I see the UK daily Telegraph has put up a site doing the same thing .

The_Conductor

Its not permisable under Irish legislation- any property related transactions that previously did not involve a monetary exchange (e.g. property swaps or other transactions that involved the transfer of a property from one party to another)- as of last Thursday now attract stamp duty at investor rates, under the 2008 Finance Bill........

Perhaps its possible in Florida- it certainly isn't here.......

flyfishen

I am not sure what you are trying to tell me ...but your input is noted .
However it is common practice on most parts of the Planet with any transaction were fixed property is concerend the Govt has a dip be it in or under any label .......The Here in Florida bit is irrelevant.
the only deciding factor for a free from govt transaction is a quick claim deed ..Here in Florida ......which is in no way attached to the barter trade system latley adopted by the home owner worldwide .....
And I am sure the enterprising Irish population and those set clearly on a parallel path will find a way lets hope so .....as there is so many Spain for Ireland ads I am noticing on the UK web sites .
My concern is getting home anyway I can .....at any cost ..but watching the value drop monthly on a property I cant sell.. without making some effort is a little silly my only option will be to walk away from a property I own free and clear ..as I am unable to work here ...I came here to further my qualifications in my feild ...and got caught in it all. what would you do?
SWAP IT ?

drunkmonkey

You could probably get around the stamp duty thing with some kind of lease drawn up, ie i'll rent your house for 10years and you'll rent mine for 10 years....
I know a mate of mine done it through his solicitor, he basically couldn't sell his house so he temporaly swapped the property (through a rental agreement) with some one down south.

flyfishen

Yes ..I think I mentioned that the Irish being the inovative people that we are ..will find a way ...... my soliceter in Kerry tells me ..get your self a deal and I will close it for you ...
Now about the cost ??? hmmm anything is better than watching a $380,000 house drop to $250,000 and even then nobody can get a mortgage to buy it ..and I cant work ..Yipee I am qualified ..no good being qualified and broke ..
I wonder what all those Americans laid off from the those US companies that moved to Ireland are going to do .....

astrofool

smccarrick wrote: »

Its not permisable under Irish legislation- any property related transactions that previously did not involve a monetary exchange (e.g. property swaps or other transactions that involved the transfer of a property from one party to another)- as of last Thursday now attract stamp duty at investor rates, under the 2008 Finance Bill........

Perhaps its possible in Florida- it certainly isn't here.......

How do they establish market value for SD in this market?

flyfishen

Yes Sir ..I was trying to be polite about the new govt stipulations noted to me ...Inovation Inovation ....we got to survive ....

The_Conductor

The problem with all of this- is if you "swap" or otherwise your Principle Permanent Residence- it is no longer your PPR, irrespective of where you are then living. Even if no money is involved in the swap- there are 2 free standing legal leases- both of which entitle the bearer to full and exclusive access to a property that they do not own. Aside from the stamp duty issue- you now have two freestanding legal leases, which are governed among other things by the 2002 Residential Tenancies Act. If you were getting pedantic- the length of time between exercising the leases and the original purchase dates for the property- would also impact on 1. The original stamp duty paid on the property and 2. Any Mortgage Interest Relief which might be claimed on the mortgage.

You can draw up legal documents to your hearts content- but regardless of how you structure it- there is an ongoing tax liability associated (along with potentially massive retrospective liabilities) with a "swap" of the manner you are suggesting.

S.

SimpleSam06

smccarrick wrote: »

You can draw up legal documents to your hearts content- but regardless of how you structure it- there is an ongoing tax liability associated (along with potentially massive retrospective liabilities) with a "swap" of the manner you are suggesting.

That pretty much hits the nail on the head. The only people that might benefit from such a swap would be those on their second or third house, those who have been living in their first house for a long time, or someone with an "investment" property they might want to exchange for some reason, I can't imagine what. Fairly thin pickings, all in all.

flyfishen

[

You can draw up legal documents to your hearts content- but regardless of how you structure it- there is an ongoing tax liability associated (along with potentially massive retrospective liabilities) with a "swap" of the manner you are suggesting.

S.[/quote]
I thought we coverd the Govt dipping in a previouse post .....
I am somewhat confused as by the current research available google have hosted 400 sites in the property exchange catagory ( the amount of subscribers to those sites must know something we dont)
or perhaps they are all flogging a dead horse .......
This is a nice littel site in 2.0 seems to be informative ... http://domuswap.com/

flyfishen

SimpleSam06 wrote: »

That pretty much hits the nail on the head. The only people that might benefit from such a swap would be those on their second or third house, those who have been living in their first house for a long time, or someone with an "investment" property they might want to exchange for some reason, I can't imagine what. Fairly thin pickings, all in all.

...

I also thought this was the direction or usage of such sites at first but then I looked at the site currently being used by most property agents and investment property owners ...there seems to be some ingeneous tabulations
http://www.ree.com

The_Conductor

Sorry- none of the sites you've so far mentioned have anything whatsoever to do with Irish property. As Boards.ie is an Irish website- its a reasonable assumption that your original query related to Irish property. We do have a sister site- www.boards.us which I can move your query to if you like?

flyfishen

smccarrick wrote: »

Sorry- none of the sites you've so far mentioned have anything whatsoever to do with Irish property. As Boards.ie is an Irish website- its a reasonable assumption that your original query related to Irish property. We do have a sister site- www.boards.us which I can move your query to if you like?

I beg to differ before you would have me shovel off the site ...

why dont you look at your local Craigs list you will see HOUSE SWAP in the headings ....
you may also take a look under Kijji ..house swap and exchange ...
they are I believe Irish sites ....
or it says Cork Dublin Kerry ..I might be missing something here .

SimpleSam06

flyfishen wrote: »

why dont you look at your local Craigs list you will see HOUSE SWAP in the headings ....

Craigslist isn't really used much in Ireland tbh. SMcCarrick is bang on the money as regards the financial ramifications of house swapping as you describe it in Ireland, which isn't to say that its useless to everyone, just that there are very few people who would find it handy. Its a pretty small country as well, we wouldn't need to move across a continent in order to get work, as you might in the US.

The_Conductor

flyfishen wrote: »

I beg to differ before you would have me shovel off the site ...

why dont you look at your local Craigs list you will see HOUSE SWAP in the headings ....

Check again- Craigslist doesn't have an Irish site- they only feature a small section of their international site for Ireland- and the vast bulk of the "House Swap" section is people swapping houses for a month or two (or even slightly longer) to go on holidays (most swaps are actually a lot shorter- including several of a weekend nature)- not long term swaps like are suggesting. Sure- you might have the very odd example of someone suggesting something like you are suggesting- but its a rarity. In any case- I am not personally aware of any Irish people, in Ireland, who use Craigslist to any extent whatsoever. Property transactions, as they exist, tend to be on *Irish* sites such as DAFT. Craigslist never took off over here to any extent. Gumtree (shudder) is a lot more popular- but full of spam- most people avoid the Irish version because of its lack of moderation.

flyfishen wrote: »

you may also take a look under Kijji ..house swap and exchange ...

Kijji- I've never heard of before- and its blocking access to my IP address (so I can't even look at it). According to Whois- its a Korean registered webdomain, administered from California- but as I can't access it, I have no idea what it is.

flyfishen wrote: »

they are I believe Irish sites .... or it says Cork Dublin Kerry ..I might be missing something here .

Just because something advertises Cork, Kerry or Dublin- does not make it an "Irish" website. Nor does it mean that there is any meaningful traffic on the sites. The "Irish" sites that most people use almost exclusively, is DAFT, with some sites geared towards expats, such as www.emigrant.ie also in the running.

There are some actual "Irish" websites- such as www.houseswap.ie- but check them out- they are aimed at shortterm holiday swaps- not what you are suggesting at all........

Re: clearing up the government "dipping" as you put it, in a previous post- nope, we most certainly did not. There are two property transactions in question- and those that are in the Irish jurisdiction (or which I am guessing there is at least one) attract obligations under Irish law.

Ps- www.ree.com doesn't feature Irish property at all????

To be quite honest I don't really understand why you are arguing with me. You certainly haven't enlightened me in any manner. Swapping of property, irrespective of the nature of the legal agreements drawn up between the parties involved, has tax and other legislative implications in Irish law, that do not exist in the US. This involves the registration of a lease with the PRTB, payment of relevant fees etc.

You might not be aware of the Irish law relating to adverse possession- which has been aired in the media over here recently in a few high profile cases. If you weren't very careful you could actually end up without any property whatsoever.......

Ps- US property registrations are unenforceable in an EU court.

flyfishen

[

To be quite honest I don't really understand why you are arguing with me. You certainly haven't enlightened me in any manner.[/quote]

Why should I not pass an opinion ..is your word rule ?
What ever gave you the opinion my time has been taken up by attempting to enlightening you.
And under what authority are you telling me to take my drivel elswhere


I am no way arguing with you ...I simpley passing another view and conveying my comprehention of the matter at hand ...with what little information I have .
unless of course this is you
http://www.topix.com/forum/city/columbia-ky/TF9IG6DOQVOTF8PK9
Under FYI

As to you comment re Craigs list ...I see two houses swaps for posted in Ireland and in the USA version I see thirty houses requested for swap .from Ireland to Mass mostly ......for example if one looks under house swap in most area listing ..one can see the Irish looking to swap to USA cities.
I am fully aware of the vacation swap deal .....And as to Kijiji they are owned by ebay.and have an Irish page .
Your only contrabution to me so far has been to say cant be done ...and get off the site .....got anything positive ?

The_Conductor

I said a straight property swap is not permissible under Irish law- it isn't. It was until it was closed off in the Finance Bill last week. If you had posted what you posted a week ago it would have been valid- unfortunately, in an Irish context, as of last Thursday, its no longer valid to suggest a straight property swap- period.

You can swap- if you acknowledge the Irish tax implications (which are several) along with the registration requirements (as per the 2002 Residential Tenancies Act) of the transactions, and comply with this financial and other obligations. It could no longer be considered a straight swap though- as there are numerous obligations associated with the Irish property.

Up to Thursday of last week- you could simply swap property here, with property either in the Irish Republic or a country with which we have reciprocal tax arrangements (which does include the US)- to your hearts content, all it involved was registration of the relevant details (within 6 months of the transaction).

I never suggested you "take my drivel elswhere"- I am the moderator of this forum, I was trying to be helpful suggesting our US site.

A straight swap is not legally permissible since last Thursday- its the law, until such time as its changed. You can argue this as much as you like- it doesn't change the law.

As I have told you- we don't use Craigslist to any extent here- we don't. Have a look at www.daft.ie- that is where you will find the vast bulk of Irish property in most categories. For sales Irish agents almost universally use www.myhome.ie (often as a mirror to their own sites). We quite simply don't use the international sites like Craigslist, Kijji, international-realestateforsale.com etc- they don't feature here.

Legally- you cannot do a straight swap- it has tax and other implications, and depending on how you structure it- for example if it does not involve a payment and the other party has exclusive access to the Irish property for a period over 13 years in length- could in fact result in adverse ownership of the Irish property by one of the parties- while they would not have relinquished ownership of their US (or other) property.

One of the forum rules we operate here is that if disagree with what someone has posted- that you refute the post without attacking the poster. Consider yourself on a warning in this respect.

Regards,

SMcCarrick

flyfishen

As I have told you- we don't use Craigslist to any extent here- we don't. Have a look at www.daft.ie- that is where you will find the vast bulk of Irish property in most categories. For sales Irish agents almost universally use www.myhome.ie (often as a mirror to their own sites). We quite simply don't use the international sites like Craigslist, Kijji, international-realestateforsale.com etc- they don't feature here.

SMcCarrick[/quote]
I do not need to look at the above two sites I have been listed as a swap on both sites for some six months ...........via my agent in Ireland I love the we dont use who is we you or have you taken a census as to the users ? or are the companies supporting these sites also flogging a dead horse. ie Kijji Ireland house swap ..if my site is the same as yours.
Four years in the USA has not left me totaly out of touch with the Irish property market ...
And I much prefer http://www.property-vultures.com to stay in touch with whats going on in the market .
In finality I hope even after your un warrented threats and warnings ..which appear to me to be a sign of your over zealouse disregard for your title of Moderator, ( which is clearly visible next to your screen name )..and if your reply to open discussion is as posted with warnings and re directions off this site lets talk about our gardens .

edanto

Don't get your knickers in a twist.

You came in here with a good idea that you wanted to tell people about - fair play for that, just now it turns out that idea isn't so practical in Ireland because of the tax and tenancy laws.

Don't bother FIGHTING THE POWA! Moderators are generally picked because they're level headed. If you get a mild warning - just read it, accept it and move on.

Are you trying to arrange a swap at the moment between a property you have in the US and one in Ireland? If so, how's it going?!

flyfishen

edanto wrote: »

Don't get your knickers in a twist.

You came in here with a good idea that you wanted to tell people about - fair play for that, just now it turns out that idea isn't so practical in Ireland because of the tax and tenancy laws.

Don't bother FIGHTING THE POWA! Moderators are generally picked because they're level headed. If you get a mild warning - just read it, accept it and move on.

Are you trying to arrange a swap at the moment between a property you have in the US and one in Ireland? If so, how's it going?!

I love the colour of your dress tooooo:)

Nope I just wanted to put a topic out there ..and BOOM out of the sky comes the property police ...
I am not looking to fight with anybody ...I am just a lad from Kerry with a family caught in a situation trying to get home to work ..before the money runs out ..and or I get thrown out with no visa ...this of course will leave me with a house paid for that ..I will have to walk away from .
My tax implecations I will take advice from our family soliceter....
however seemed like I was talkin out my anal passage ( I say this cuz I dont want to get chucked out )..But any tax implecation is better than walking away with nothing ....perhaps being Irish keeps me hopefull that someone some where has another idea ......or at least something positive to say .....or thoughts on how a deal could get done.
Hows it going ?
well I have missd three lads coming over here to work ..but they need to be up in the city NY or Boston ...I am in the country by the water .there has been a few american retiries that came back here when the going got tough over home and there pensions didnt crack it .but they cant swap they need the money from a house sale in Ireland as they were all playing on the strong dollar ....
I have a good agent thats got here feelers out ..but untill some one says to her we are going back to the US ...I am here sweating it out ....

meesa

flyfishen wrote: »

I have a good agent thats got here feelers out ..
....

Would she be an estate agant?

SimpleSam06

flyfishen wrote: »

Nope I just wanted to put a topic out there ..and BOOM out of the sky comes the property police ...

He is factually correct however, and at the end of the day that's what counts. There have been ferocious debates around here over the last few years, with every other comment dissected down to its bones, so you learn to appreciate the value of a good fact.

Seriously though smccarrick is one of the better mods on boards, and he's helped a lot of people with their questions, so its best to take on board what he has to say, even if it doesn't suit your plans.

The_Conductor

Thankyou for the votes of confidence.

flyfishen- I am genuinely sorry to hear of the position you find yourself in- and it wasn't my intention to come across in an aggressive or confrontational manner- my apologies if it seemed that way.

Regards,

SMcCarrick

flyfishen

Seriously though smccarrick is one of the better mods on boards, and he's helped a lot of people with their questions, so its best to take on board what he has to say, even if it doesn't suit your plans.[/quote]

I understand this, I am fully aware of his unique position and the advantages he has to be privvy to information that is not available to us all .....I know who he and is life story just about ...and this is all of great value to the site ...but I am sure you can appreciate my position ..
I am here on a student visa ...(i love saying that makes me feel 30 again ) and my course of four years is finished ...I was greedy ..I should have rented while I was here ...but no it was cheaper to buy ...now I am caught nobodies fault but my own ....however I cant lay in the trap and die, And fair play to the mod he was doing what he does best ..giving valuable information about legislation that is just another fence I must jump ...I am not at war with anybody ...I am in big S**t

flyfishen

smccarrick wrote: »

Thankyou for the votes of confidence.

flyfishen- I am genuinely sorry to hear of the position you find yourself in- and it wasn't my intention to come across in an aggressive or confrontational manner- my apologies if it seemed that way.

Regards,

SMcCarrick

I am sure it is not at all blame to be laid at your feet ...I am sure I am more than a little touchy and for this I beg your indulgence..trying to get my wife and kids home with some sence of dignity and a dollar to my name
Its somewhat belitteling (my spelling sucks ) to be qualified ..and to find oneself playing buttonbox in the bars to put food on the table ...and spending every waking day trying to get this property from around my neck .

Now about our gardens

flyfishen

meesa wrote: »

Would she be an estate agant?

They seem to be the best kind .:)

eileen grace

In terms of property swapping,,,,,,,,,,,what if the two swappers or 3/4 were to establish a housing co-operative as a management company? Would that work?

The_Conductor

eileen grace wrote: »

In terms of property swapping,,,,,,,,,,,what if the two swappers or 3/4 were to establish a housing co-operative as a management company? Would that work?

I think you're suggesting they pool their properties into an umbrella to which shares are ascribed to the original owners. Pooling the properties into a separate legal entity would constitute a sale of property- and trigger any capital gains (though whether or not there might be capital gains in the current environment is doubtful). In addition there would then be the 1% tax- alongside the annual returns necessary in any company- and if the company were ever to be dissolved (perhaps through failure to submit annual returns for example)- the properties would be signed over to the Minister for Finance..........

You'd seriously need to get good professional advice before you consider anything like you're suggesting.......

edanto

Well it's been a long time since this thread was first started, I hope that things worked out well for flyfishen and family.