The Problem of St Patrick

Lockstep

"The Problem of St Patrick bars the very portals of Early Irish History"

I came across this quote in passing by Prof F.J. Byrne, does anyone know what exactly he's referring to? Couldn't really find anything on the net.

Riamfada

I assume that he means that the idea that St Patrick swiftly converted the entire country and that pre-christian practices died out with his arrival and the complete acceptance of this in Ireland muddles the idea of society in early historic ireland. Betty O'Brien has written a bit on this.

At least thats what I think he is referring to.

BenjAii

Grimes wrote: »

I assume that he means that the idea that St Patrick swiftly converted the entire country and that pre-christian practices died out with his arrival and the complete acceptance of this in Ireland muddles the idea of society in early historic ireland. Betty O'Brien has written a bit on this.

At least that's what I think he is referring to.

I dont know the answer to the OP's question, but Grimes I am not sure that you are right.

Given that Irish pre-christian culture was transmitted orally, the reason we are the Celtic country with the greatest written records transmitting that culture is precisely because of St Patrick.

The monasteries and writing actually preserved much of that culture.

Albeit you could argue, it wouldn't need preserving if Christianity hadn't been introduced in the first place.

Millucc

kickoutthejams wrote: »

"The Problem of St Patrick bars the very portals of Early Irish History"

I came across this quote in passing by Prof F.J. Byrne, does anyone know what exactly he's referring to? Couldn't really find anything on the net.

To paraphrase another historian, whose name escapes me (Possibly Liam De Paor)...if Patrick had tried to, he could not have told us any less about his time, place and date (in his two documents).

Patrician scholars have been arguing over those things for the last century or so. Essentially, that is the main problem.

Many other problems fall under the same umbrella, such as the theory (now defunct in serious historical circles) of 'The Two Patricks', by Binchy in the 60's. Irish linguistic renderings of his name Cothrige/Patricius. The Patrick/Palladius 'fusion' that may have occured during the sixth and seventh centures, where events from each others careers were assignd to the other. What version bible he used. How good/bad was his latin. How familiar was he of other fifth century writers.

Take your pick...

Doozie

Millucc wrote: »

To paraphrase another historian, whose name escapes me (Possibly Liam De Paor)...if Patrick had tried to, he could not have told us any less about his time, place and date (in his two documents).

Patrician scholars have been arguing over those things for the last century or so. Essentially, that is the main problem.

Many other problems fall under the same umbrella, such as the theory (now defunct in serious historical circles) of 'The Two Patricks', by Binchy in the 60's. Irish linguistic renderings of his name Cothrige/Patricius. The Patrick/Palladius 'fusion' that may have occured during the sixth and seventh centures, where events from each others careers were assignd to the other. What version bible he used. How good/bad was his latin. How familiar was he of other fifth century writers.

Take your pick...

In short 'the problem' of Patrick is his identity, the 'bars the very portals' blocks confident theory 'of early Irish history', as said above, the beginning of Christianity and the written record.
Interestingly put if you think of it is a pagan/portal kind of way.....

mythicalireland

I have written about Saint Patrick in the second edition of my book, "Island of the Setting Sun - In Search of Ireland's Ancient Astronomers". Basically Patrick's life story, the known facts that is, could be written on the back of a postage stamp. His mythology and folklore, however, would fill many volumes. Actually there are many volumes out there filled with just such folklore.

What we really know about Saint Patrick is very little.

What we are told about Saint Patrick is quite a lot. He shares some attributes of the earlier prehistoric (pagan!?) figures of lore. Fionn MacCumhaill, for instance, is said to have banished monsters and demons into lakes around Ireland. Sound familiar?

Svenolsen

mythicalireland wrote: »

I have written about Saint Patrick in the second edition of my book, "Island of the Setting Sun - In Search of Ireland's Ancient Astronomers".

Thanks for the info. about that book.
Hope I can still buy it.

Incidentally,Daniel McCarthy of TCD,Dublin reckons that Irish astronomical records in the five centuries AFTER Patrick are some of the best in the world:

https://www.cs.tcd.ie/Dan.McCarthy/

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