Near death experiences

midlandsmissus

Hello. I know atheists place alot of importance on scientific proof. I was wondering what is your opinion then on near death experiences? I have read alot of them and the majority of people recount seeing Jesus, God, and their life played back to them on a 3D screen. Surely religious and non-religious people who have never met each other, recounting the same experiences is too much to be a coincidence? I have posted an excerpt from an NDE here that I find extremely interesting. I would be very interested to hear you views, thank you.


On November 18, 1973, Betty Eadie died from complications due to a partial-hysterectomy surgery. After being restored to life, Betty suffered with depression - so painful was her separation from the light of love she experienced during her moments of clinical death. Twenty years later, after sharing her story with family and friends, and with critically ill cancer patients, Betty was urged to write her experience so that a wider audience might share its beauty. In 1992, Embraced by the Light was published by a small press out of Carson City, Nevada. Embraced became a permanent fixture on the New York Times Bestsellers list, spending more than a year at number one.
Leaving Her Body
Betty Eadie leaves her body through her chest and floats above her bed. Three hooded monk-like beings appear whom she identifies to be her guardian angels. They tell her that they have been with her for "eternities" and that she died prematurely. Concerned about her family that she left behind, she travels in spirit to her home to see them; but she discovers that she cannot be seen by them. Betty then returns to her body where her guardian angels are waiting for her.
Entering the Light of Jesus Christ

[The following is in Betty's own words.]

I saw a pinpoint of light in the distance. As I got closer the light became brilliant - brilliant beyond any description, far more brilliant than the sun . As I drew closer I began to stand upright.

I saw that the light immediately around him was golden, I felt his light blending into mine, literally, and I felt my light being drawn to his. And as our lights merged, I felt as if I had stepped into his countenance, and I felt an utter explosion of love.

It was the most unconditional love I have ever felt, and as I saw his arms open to receive me I went to him and received his complete embrace and said over and over, "I'm home. I'm home, I'm finally home." I felt his enormous spirit and knew that I had always been a part of him, that in reality I had never been away from him.


There was no questioning who he was, I knew that he was Jesus Christ, who had always loved me, even when I thought he hated me. He was life itself, love itself, and his love gave me a fullness of joy, even to overflowing. I knew that I had known him from the beginning, from long before my Earth life, because my spirit remembered him.

All my life I had feared him, and I now saw - I knew - that he was my choicest friend. Gently, he opened his arms and let me stand back far enough to look into his eyes, and he said, "Your death was premature, it is not yet your time." No words ever spoken have penetrated me more than these. Until then, I had felt no purpose in life; I had simply ambled along looking for love and goodness but never really knowing if my actions were right. Now, within his words, I felt a mission, a purpose; I didn't know what it was, but I knew that my life on Earth had not been meaningless.

It was not yet my time.

My time would come when my mission, my purpose, my meaning in this life was accomplished. I had a reason for existing on Earth. But even though I understood this, my spirit rebelled. Did this mean I would have to go back? I said to him, "No, I can never leave you now."

He understood what I meant, and his love and acceptance for me never wavered. My thoughts raced on: "Is this Jesus, God, the being I feared all my life? He is nothing like what I had thought. He is filled with love."
Learning From the Lord

Then questions began coming to my mind. I wanted to know why I had died as I had - not prematurely, but how my spirit had come to him before the resurrection. I was still laboring under the teachings and beliefs of my childhood. His light now began to fill my mind, and my questions were answered even before I fully asked them. His light was knowledge. It had power to fill me with all truth. As I gained confidence and let the light flow into me, my questions came faster than I thought possible, and they were just as quickly answered. And the answers were absolute and complete. In my fears, I had misinterpreted death, had expected something that was not so. The grave was never intended for the spirit - only for the body. I felt no judgment for having been mistaken. There was just a feeling that a simple, living truth had replaced my error.
I understood that he was the son of God, though he himself was also a God, and that he had chosen from before the creation of the world to be our savior. I understood, or rather, I remembered, his role as creator of the Earth. His mission was to come into the world to teach love. This knowledge was more like remembering. Things were coming back to me from long before my life on Earth, things that had been purposely blocked from me by a "veil" of forgetfulness at my birth. As more questions bubbled out of me, I became aware of his sense of humor. Almost laughing, he suggested that I slow down, that I could know all I desired.


As I comprehended one thing, more questions and answers would come to me, all building on each other, and interacting as if all truth were intrinsically connected. The word "omniscient" had never been more meaningful to me. Knowledge permeated me. In a sense it became me, and I was amazed at my ability to comprehend the mysteries of the universe simply by reflecting on them.

I wanted to know why there were so many churches in the world. Why didn't God give us only one church, one pure religion? The answer came to me with the purest of understanding. Each of us, I was told, is at a different level of spiritual development and understanding. Each person is therefore prepared for a different level of spiritual knowledge. All religions upon the Earth are necessary because there are people who need what they teach. People in one religion may not have a complete understanding of the Lord's gospel and never will have while in that religion. But that religion is used as a stepping stone to further knowledge. Each church fulfills spiritual needs that perhaps others cannot fill. No one church can fulfill everybody's needs at every level. As an individual raises his level of understanding about God and his own eternal progress, he might feel discontented with the teachings of his present church and seek a different philosophy or religion to fill that void. When this occurs he has reached another level of understanding and will long for further truth and knowledge, and for another opportunity to grow. And at every step of the way, these new opportunities to learn will be given.

Having received this knowledge, I knew that we have no right to criticize any church or religion in any way. They are all precious in his sight. Very special people with important missions have been placed in all countries, in all religions, in every station of life, that they might touch others. There is a fullness of the gospel, but most people will not attain it here. In order to grasp this truth, we need to listen to the Spirit and let go of our egos.

I wanted to learn the purpose of life on the Earth. Why are we here? As I basked in the love of Jesus Christ, I couldn't imagine why any spirit would voluntarily leave this wonderful paradise and all it offered - worlds to explore and ideas to create and knowledge to gain. Why would anyone want to come here? In answer, I remembered the creation of the Earth. I actually experienced it as if it were being reenacted before my eyes. This was important. Jesus wanted me to internalize this knowledge. He wanted me to know how I felt when the creation occurred. And the only way to do that was for me to view it again and feel what I had felt before.

All people as spirits in the pre-mortal world took part in the creation of the Earth. We were thrilled to be part of it. We were with God, and we knew that he created us, that we were his very own children. He was pleased with our development and was filled with absolute love for each one of us. Also, Jesus Christ was there. I understood, to my surprise, that Jesus was a separate being from God, with his own divine purpose, and I knew that God was our mutual Father. My Protestant upbringing had taught me that God the Father and Jesus Christ were one being. As we all assembled, the Father explained that coming to Earth for a time would further our spiritual growth. Each spirit who was to come to Earth assisted in planning the conditions on Earth, including the laws of mortality which would govern us. These included the laws of physics as we know them, the limitations of our bodies, and spiritual powers that we would be able to access. We assisted God in the development of plants and animal life that would be here. Everything was created of spirit matter before it was created physically - solar systems, suns, moons, stars, planets, life upon the planets, mountains, rivers, seas, etc. I saw this process, and then, to further understand it, I was told by the savior that the spirit creation could be compared to one of our photographic prints; the spirit creation would be like a sharp, brilliant print, and the Earth would be like its dark negative. This Earth is only a shadow of the beauty and glory of its spirit creation, but it is what we needed for our growth. It was important that I understand that we all assisted in creating our conditions here.

Many times the creative thoughts we have in this life are the result of unseen inspiration. Many of our important inventions and even technological developments were first created in the spirit by spirit prodigies. Then individuals on Earth received the inspiration to create these inventions here. I understood that there is a vital, dynamic link between the spirit world and mortality, and that we need the spirits on the other side for our progression. I also saw that they are very happy to assist us in any way they can.

I saw that in the pre-mortal world we knew about and even chose our missions in life. I understood that our stations in life are based upon the objectives of those missions. Through divine knowledge we knew what many of our tests and experiences would be, and we prepared accordingly. We bonded with others - family members and friends - to help us complete our missions. We needed their help. We came as volunteers, each eager to learn and experience all that God had created for us. I knew that each of us who made the decision to come here was here was a valiant spirit. Even the least developed among us here was strong and valiant there. We were given agency to act for ourselves here. Our own actions determine the course of our lives, and we can alter or redirect our lives at any time. I understood that this was crucial; God made the promise that he wouldn't intervene in our lives unless we asked him. And then through his omniscient knowledge he would help us attain our righteous desires. We were grateful for this ability to express our free will and to exercise its power. This would allow each of us to obtain great joy or to choose that which will bring us sadness. The choice would be ours through our decisions.

I was actually relieved to find that the Earth is not our natural home, that we did not originate here. I was gratified to see that the Earth is only a temporary place for our schooling and that sin is not our true nature. Spiritually, we are at various degrees of light - which is knowledge - and because of our divine, spiritual nature we are filled with the desire to do good.

Our earthly selves, however, are constantly in opposition to our spirits. I saw how weak the flesh is. But it is persistent. Although our spirit bodies are full of light, truth, and love, they must battle constantly to overcome the flesh, and this strengthens them. Those who are truly developed will find a perfect harmony between their flesh and spirits, a harmony that will bless them with peace and give them the ability to help others.

As we learn to abide by the laws of this creation, we learn how to use those laws to our own good. We learn how to live in harmony with the creative powers around us. God has given us individual talents, some more and some less according to our needs. As we use these talents, we learn how to work with and eventually understand, the laws and overcome the limitations of this life. By understanding these laws we are better able to serve those around us. Whatever we become here in mortality is meaningless unless it is done for the benefit of others. Our gifts and talents are given to us to help us serve. And in serving others we grow spiritually.

Above all, I was shown that love is supreme. I saw that truly without love we are nothing. We are here to help each other, to care for each other, to understand, forgive, and serve one another. We are here to have love for every person born on Earth. Their earthly form might be black, yellow, brown, handsome, ugly, thin, fat, wealthy, poor, intelligent, or ignorant, but we are not to judge by these appearances. Each spirit has the capacity to be filled with love and eternal energy. At the beginning, each possesses some degree of light and truth that can be more fully developed. We cannot measure these things. Only God knows the heart of man, and only God can judge perfectly. He knows our spirits; we see only temporary strengths and weaknesses. Because of our own limitations, we can seldom look into the heart of man.

I knew that anything we do to show love is worthwhile: a smile, a word of encouragement, a small act of sacrifice. We grow by these actions. Not all people are lovable, but when we find someone difficult for us to love, it is often because they remind us of something within ourselves that we don't like. I learned that we must love our enemies - let go of anger, hate, envy, bitterness, and the refusal to forgive. These things destroy the spirit. We will have to account for how we treat others.

Upon receiving the plan of creation, we sang in rejoicing and were filled with God's love. We were filled with joy as we saw the growth we would have here on Earth and the joyous bonds we would create with each other.

Then we watched as the Earth was created. We watched as our spirit brothers and sisters entered physical bodies for their turns upon the Earth, each experiencing the pains and joys that would help them progress. I distinctly remember watching the American pioneers crossing the continent and rejoicing as they endured their difficult tasks and completed their missions. I knew that only those who needed that experience were placed there. I saw the angels rejoicing for those who endured their trials and succeeded and grieving for those who failed. I saw that some failed because of their own weaknesses, and some failed because of the weaknesses of others. I sensed that many of us who were not there would not have been up to the tasks, that we would have made lousy pioneers, and we would have been the cause of more suffering for others. Likewise, some of the pioneers and people from other eras could not have endured the trials of today. We are where we need to be.

As all of these things came to me, I understood perfection of the plan. I saw that we all volunteered for our positions and stations in the world, and that each of us is receiving more help than we know. I saw the unconditional love of God, beyond any earthly love, radiating from him to all his children. I saw the angels standing near us, waiting to assist us, rejoicing in our accomplishments and joys. But above all, I saw Christ, the Creator and savior of the Earth, my friend, and the closest friend any of us can have. I seemed to melt with joy as I was held in his arms and comforted - home at last. I would give all in my power, all that I ever was, to be filled with that love again - to be embraced in the arms of his eternal light.


It ends with Betty being told she must go back as she has not yet completed her mission.

midlandsmissus

I have no idea why all those fonts came up. It must be because i copied and pasted. If you could just bear with it and please read, thanks.

6th

How about you post a link to the article and make a comment of y our own? Posting up a huge piece of text with no input from yourself is lazy.

midlandsmissus

6th wrote: »

How about you post a link to the article and make a comment of y our own? Posting up a huge piece of text with no input from yourself is lazy.

Hi 6th I actually went through every paragraph and cut out what I thought was irrelevant in order to shorten it down. It is much much longer. So I wouldn't say i was lazy.

I did comment at the beginning saying; is there not some scientific proof there? ALot of people have recounted the same experiences? and what do people on this board think?

I really agree with the part that states all religions are of equal importance.

Gauge

Anecdotes do not equal scientific truth.

Dave!

I'm not gonna read all this, but..........

midlandsmissus wrote: »

Hello. I know atheists place alot of importance on scientific proof. I was wondering what is your opinion then on near death experiences? I have read alot of them and the majority of people recount seeing Jesus, God, and their life played back to them on a 3D screen. Surely religious and non-religious people who have never met each other, recounting the same experiences is too much to be a coincidence? I have posted an excerpt from an NDE here that I find extremely interesting. I would be very interested to hear you views, thank you.

On November 18, 1973, Betty Eadie died from complications due to a partial-hysterectomy surgery. After being restored to life, Betty suffered with depression - so painful was her separation from the light of love she experienced during her moments of clinical death. Twenty years later, after sharing her story with family and friends, and with critically ill cancer patients, Betty was urged to write her experience so that a wider audience might share its beauty. In 1992, Embraced by the Light was published by a small press out of Carson City, Nevada. Embraced became a permanent fixture on the New York Times Bestsellers list, spending more than a year at number one.

Betty Eadie leaves her body through her chest and floats above her bed. Three hooded monk-like beings appear whom she identifies to be her guardian angels. They tell her that they have been with her for "eternities" and that she died prematurely. Concerned about her family that she left behind, she travels in spirit to her home to see them; but she discovers that she cannot be seen by them. Betty then returns to her body where her guardian angels are waiting for her.

Entering the Light of Jesus Christ
The following is in Betty's own words.

I saw a pinpoint of light in the distance. As I got closer the light became brilliant - brilliant beyond any description, far more brilliant than the sun . As I drew closer I began to stand upright.

I saw that the light immediately around him was golden, I felt his light blending into mine, literally, and I felt my light being drawn to his. And as our lights merged, I felt as if I had stepped into his countenance, and I felt an utter explosion of love.

It was the most unconditional love I have ever felt, and as I saw his arms open to receive me I went to him and received his complete embrace and said over and over, "I'm home. I'm home, I'm finally home." I felt his enormous spirit and knew that I had always been a part of him, that in reality I had never been away from him.


There was no questioning who he was, I knew that he was Jesus Christ, who had always loved me, even when I thought he hated me. He was life itself, love itself, and his love gave me a fullness of joy, even to overflowing. I knew that I had known him from the beginning, from long before my Earth life, because my spirit remembered him.

All my life I had feared him, and I now saw - I knew - that he was my choicest friend. Gently, he opened his arms and let me stand back far enough to look into his eyes, and he said, "Your death was premature, it is not yet your time." No words ever spoken have penetrated me more than these. Until then, I had felt no purpose in life; I had simply ambled along looking for love and goodness but never really knowing if my actions were right. Now, within his words, I felt a mission, a purpose; I didn't know what it was, but I knew that my life on Earth had not been meaningless.

It was not yet my time.

My time would come when my mission, my purpose, my meaning in this life was accomplished. I had a reason for existing on Earth. But even though I understood this, my spirit rebelled. Did this mean I would have to go back? I said to him, "No, I can never leave you now."

He understood what I meant, and his love and acceptance for me never wavered. My thoughts raced on: "Is this Jesus, God, the being I feared all my life? He is nothing like what I had thought. He is filled with love."

Then questions began coming to my mind. I wanted to know why I had died as I had - not prematurely, but how my spirit had come to him before the resurrection. I was still laboring under the teachings and beliefs of my childhood. His light now began to fill my mind, and my questions were answered even before I fully asked them. His light was knowledge. It had power to fill me with all truth. As I gained confidence and let the light flow into me, my questions came faster than I thought possible, and they were just as quickly answered. And the answers were absolute and complete. In my fears, I had misinterpreted death, had expected something that was not so. The grave was never intended for the spirit - only for the body. I felt no judgment for having been mistaken. There was just a feeling that a simple, living truth had replaced my error.

I understood that he was the son of God, though he himself was also a God, and that he had chosen from before the creation of the world to be our savior. I understood, or rather, I remembered, his role as creator of the Earth. His mission was to come into the world to teach love. This knowledge was more like remembering. Things were coming back to me from long before my life on Earth, things that had been purposely blocked from me by a "veil" of forgetfulness at my birth. As more questions bubbled out of me, I became aware of his sense of humor. Almost laughing, he suggested that I slow down, that I could know all I desired.


As I comprehended one thing, more questions and answers would come to me, all building on each other, and interacting as if all truth were intrinsically connected. The word "omniscient" had never been more meaningful to me. Knowledge permeated me. In a sense it became me, and I was amazed at my ability to comprehend the mysteries of the universe simply by reflecting on them.

I wanted to know why there were so many churches in the world. Why didn't God give us only one church, one pure religion? The answer came to me with the purest of understanding. Each of us, I was told, is at a different level of spiritual development and understanding. Each person is therefore prepared for a different level of spiritual knowledge. All religions upon the Earth are necessary because there are people who need what they teach. People in one religion may not have a complete understanding of the Lord's gospel and never will have while in that religion. But that religion is used as a stepping stone to further knowledge. Each church fulfills spiritual needs that perhaps others cannot fill. No one church can fulfill everybody's needs at every level. As an individual raises his level of understanding about God and his own eternal progress, he might feel discontented with the teachings of his present church and seek a different philosophy or religion to fill that void. When this occurs he has reached another level of understanding and will long for further truth and knowledge, and for another opportunity to grow. And at every step of the way, these new opportunities to learn will be given.


Having received this knowledge, I knew that we have no right to criticize any church or religion in any way. They are all precious in his sight. Very special people with important missions have been placed in all countries, in all religions, in every station of life, that they might touch others. There is a fullness of the gospel, but most people will not attain it here. In order to grasp this truth, we need to listen to the Spirit and let go of our egos.

I wanted to learn the purpose of life on the Earth. Why are we here? As I basked in the love of Jesus Christ, I couldn't imagine why any spirit would voluntarily leave this wonderful paradise and all it offered - worlds to explore and ideas to create and knowledge to gain. Why would anyone want to come here? In answer, I remembered the creation of the Earth. I actually experienced it as if it were being reenacted before my eyes. This was important. Jesus wanted me to internalize this knowledge. He wanted me to know how I felt when the creation occurred. And the only way to do that was for me to view it again and feel what I had felt before.

All people as spirits in the pre-mortal world took part in the creation of the Earth. We were thrilled to be part of it. We were with God, and we knew that he created us, that we were his very own children. He was pleased with our development and was filled with absolute love for each one of us. Also, Jesus Christ was there. I understood, to my surprise, that Jesus was a separate being from God, with his own divine purpose, and I knew that God was our mutual Father. My Protestant upbringing had taught me that God the Father and Jesus Christ were one being. As we all assembled, the Father explained that coming to Earth for a time would further our spiritual growth. Each spirit who was to come to Earth assisted in planning the conditions on Earth, including the laws of mortality which would govern us. These included the laws of physics as we know them, the limitations of our bodies, and spiritual powers that we would be able to access. We assisted God in the development of plants and animal life that would be here. Everything was created of spirit matter before it was created physically - solar systems, suns, moons, stars, planets, life upon the planets, mountains, rivers, seas, etc. I saw this process, and then, to further understand it, I was told by the savior that the spirit creation could be compared to one of our photographic prints; the spirit creation would be like a sharp, brilliant print, and the Earth would be like its dark negative. This Earth is only a shadow of the beauty and glory of its spirit creation, but it is what we needed for our growth. It was important that I understand that we all assisted in creating our conditions here.

Many times the creative thoughts we have in this life are the result of unseen inspiration. Many of our important inventions and even technological developments were first created in the spirit by spirit prodigies. Then individuals on Earth received the inspiration to create these inventions here. I understood that there is a vital, dynamic link between the spirit world and mortality, and that we need the spirits on the other side for our progression. I also saw that they are very happy to assist us in any way they can.

I saw that in the pre-mortal world we knew about and even chose our missions in life. I understood that our stations in life are based upon the objectives of those missions. Through divine knowledge we knew what many of our tests and experiences would be, and we prepared accordingly. We bonded with others - family members and friends - to help us complete our missions. We needed their help. We came as volunteers, each eager to learn and experience all that God had created for us. I knew that each of us who made the decision to come here was here was a valiant spirit. Even the least developed among us here was strong and valiant there. We were given agency to act for ourselves here. Our own actions determine the course of our lives, and we can alter or redirect our lives at any time. I understood that this was crucial; God made the promise that he wouldn't intervene in our lives unless we asked him. And then through his omniscient knowledge he would help us attain our righteous desires. We were grateful for this ability to express our free will and to exercise its power. This would allow each of us to obtain great joy or to choose that which will bring us sadness. The choice would be ours through our decisions.

I was actually relieved to find that the Earth is not our natural home, that we did not originate here. I was gratified to see that the Earth is only a temporary place for our schooling and that sin is not our true nature. Spiritually, we are at various degrees of light - which is knowledge - and because of our divine, spiritual nature we are filled with the desire to do good.

Our earthly selves, however, are constantly in opposition to our spirits. I saw how weak the flesh is. But it is persistent. Although our spirit bodies are full of light, truth, and love, they must battle constantly to overcome the flesh, and this strengthens them. Those who are truly developed will find a perfect harmony between their flesh and spirits, a harmony that will bless them with peace and give them the ability to help others.

As we learn to abide by the laws of this creation, we learn how to use those laws to our own good. We learn how to live in harmony with the creative powers around us. God has given us individual talents, some more and some less according to our needs. As we use these talents, we learn how to work with and eventually understand, the laws and overcome the limitations of this life. By understanding these laws we are better able to serve those around us. Whatever we become here in mortality is meaningless unless it is done for the benefit of others. Our gifts and talents are given to us to help us serve. And in serving others we grow spiritually.

Above all, I was shown that love is supreme. I saw that truly without love we are nothing. We are here to help each other, to care for each other, to understand, forgive, and serve one another. We are here to have love for every person born on Earth. Their earthly form might be black, yellow, brown, handsome, ugly, thin, fat, wealthy, poor, intelligent, or ignorant, but we are not to judge by these appearances. Each spirit has the capacity to be filled with love and eternal energy. At the beginning, each possesses some degree of light and truth that can be more fully developed. We cannot measure these things. Only God knows the heart of man, and only God can judge perfectly. He knows our spirits; we see only temporary strengths and weaknesses. Because of our own limitations, we can seldom look into the heart of man.

I knew that anything we do to show love is worthwhile: a smile, a word of encouragement, a small act of sacrifice. We grow by these actions. Not all people are lovable, but when we find someone difficult for us to love, it is often because they remind us of something within ourselves that we don't like. I learned that we must love our enemies - let go of anger, hate, envy, bitterness, and the refusal to forgive. These things destroy the spirit. We will have to account for how we treat others.

Upon receiving the plan of creation, we sang in rejoicing and were filled with God's love. We were filled with joy as we saw the growth we would have here on Earth and the joyous bonds we would create with each other.

Then we watched as the Earth was created. We watched as our spirit brothers and sisters entered physical bodies for their turns upon the Earth, each experiencing the pains and joys that would help them progress. I distinctly remember watching the American pioneers crossing the continent and rejoicing as they endured their difficult tasks and completed their missions. I knew that only those who needed that experience were placed there. I saw the angels rejoicing for those who endured their trials and succeeded and grieving for those who failed. I saw that some failed because of their own weaknesses, and some failed because of the weaknesses of others. I sensed that many of us who were not there would not have been up to the tasks, that we would have made lousy pioneers, and we would have been the cause of more suffering for others. Likewise, some of the pioneers and people from other eras could not have endured the trials of today. We are where we need to be.

As all of these things came to me, I understood perfection of the plan. I saw that we all volunteered for our positions and stations in the world, and that each of us is receiving more help than we know. I saw the unconditional love of God, beyond any earthly love, radiating from him to all his children. I saw the angels standing near us, waiting to assist us, rejoicing in our accomplishments and joys. But above all, I saw Christ, the Creator and savior of the Earth, my friend, and the closest friend any of us can have. I seemed to melt with joy as I was held in his arms and comforted - home at last. I would give all in my power, all that I ever was, to be filled with that love again - to be embraced in the arms of his eternal light.

It ends with Betty being told she must go back as she has not yet completed her mission.

See what a nice guy I am?

midlandsmissus

Thank you!

The annoying thing is I actually cut ALOT out of it. didnt realise it was still so long! It's actually extremely interesting though

Thomas_S_Hunterson

tl;dr

nothing to contribute

Beruthiel

^^
Same as.

Near death experiences = religious people clutching at straws.

cavedave

What happens to the brain when co2 levels and o2 levels go out of whack? Rising CO2 causes you're vision to tunnel. Odd oxygen levels can lead to feelings of euphoria. These two occur just before you black out when breath hold diving.

Now this does not discount near death experiences. But it does suggest that certain things described in them have physiological causes.

CerebralCortex

midlandsmissus wrote: »

....what do people on this board think?...

That they all had near death experiences but guess what they never actually died.

midlandsmissus

Beruthiel wrote: »

^^
Same as.

Near death experiences = religious people clutching at straws.

Berthiel,

That doesn;t really relate to my experience.

I didn't believe in god, and I thought there was no proof etc. Then eventually I started reading lots of near death experiences and I was really struck by how so many people had the same experience after they died. It seemed to me to be the proof I was looking for.

So I am not a long term religious person running out of arguments, trying to convince people with NDE's.

I am merely interested in everyone's opinions on the matter. Do you think it all physiological causes then?

midlandsmissus

CerebralCortex wrote: »

That they all had near death experiences but guess what they never actually died.

Obviously we can only go on the experiences of people who have nearly died. It is only now that we have advances in life saving medical equipment that we hear of more Near death experiences. Do you think because they came back, this discounts their experiences then?

Beruthiel

midlandsmissus wrote: »

I was really struck by how so many people had the same experience after they died. It seemed to me to be the proof I was looking for.

There's that straw clutching again.
Put it down to mass hysteria, the same way that when people report seeing aliens, they all look the same.



Area 51, Star Trek, Stargate, they all have a lot to answer for!

midlandsmissus

Beruthiel wrote: »

There's that straw clutching again.
Put it down to mass hysteria, the same way that when people report seeing aliens, they all look the same.



Area 51, Star Trek, Stargate, they all have a lot to answer for!

Beruthiel, i'll give it to you, you're a hard man to argue with! Not I don't feel I have any points to come back with, but just that the nasty tone nw in this thread is making me upset.. And if I say that I know I'll get the whole "What are you doing on this board then"

All I wanted was a bit of discussion on the matter, a few opinions. I would have liked the physiological side of it explained to me. Why the need to be so nasty and 'Oh you're clutching at straws', when that totally wasn't what this was about!?

CerebralCortex

midlandsmissus wrote: »

Beruthiel, i'll give it to you, you're a hard man to argue with! Not I don't feel I have any points to come back with, but just that the nasty tone nw in this thread is making me upset.. And if I say that I know I'll get the whole "What are you doing on this board then"

All I wanted was a bit of discussion on the matter, a few opinions. I would have liked the physiological side of it explained to me. Why the need to be so nasty and 'Oh you're clutching at straws', when that totally wasn't what this was about!?

First its a she. I think you are being over sensitive, I think what you'll get in here is realistic honest answers sometimes thats hard to hear.

robindch

midlandsmissus wrote: »

I started reading lots of near death experiences and I was really struck by how so many people had the same experience after they died.

Neurological researchers believe that it's caused by lack of oxygen to the brain -- something which is known to induce feelings of elation, tunnel vision (with the bright light at the end) and other things. It's for the same reason that some people get kicks out of asphyxiating themselves.

You can find more about the rational response to NDE's here:

http://www.csicop.org/si/2004-05/near-death-experience.html

Beruthiel

midlandsmissus wrote: »

All I wanted was a bit of discussion on the matter, a few opinions. I would have liked the physiological side of it explained to me. Why the need to be so nasty and 'Oh you're clutching at straws', when that totally wasn't what this was about!?

Nasty?
As CerebralCortex said, that was my honest opinion.
People are like sponges, they asimulate information and reuse it in the future when they need to explain something that makes sense to them.

midlandsmissus

Beruthiel wrote: »

Nasty?
As CerebralCortex said, that was my honest opinion.
People are like sponges, they asimulate information and reuse it in the future when they need to explain something that makes sense to them.

You honest opinion is 'Im clutching at straws'? Explain how this is the case to me then

Beruthiel

Clutching at straws = a desperate need to believe that near death experiences are real so you can believe in a god.

WindSock

midlandsmissus wrote: »

Beruthiel, i'll give it to you, you're a hard man to argue with!

A hard man with a sexy avatar :pac:

midlandsmissus

Beruthiel wrote: »

Clutching at straws = a desperate need to believe that near death experiences are real so you can believe in a god.

Well I can say that you are totally wrong with this. For a start how do you know that I have a desperate need to believe. You are making a general assumption.

Beruthiel

midlandsmissus wrote: »

Well I can say that you are totally wrong with this. For a start how do you know that I have a desperate need to believe.

Well, from this comment:

midlandsmissus wrote: »

Then eventually I started reading lots of near death experiences and I was really struck by how so many people had the same experience after they died. It seemed to me to be the proof I was looking for.

You are making a general assumption.

I assumed nothing, I took your above comment at face value.

Dades

Hi midlandsmissus,

I think the opinions here are by and large complying with Occam's Razor.

It's a simple method of analysing situations that essentially states that the most obvious, or simplest solution is the best.

When we look at individual(s) who has had an experience, we can draw one of two conclusions.

1) The people involved actually died, were received by angels, saw glimpses of heaven, Jesus, etc. and were returned to life for some unknown reason.

2) The people involved experienced a hallucination brought as a result of the physical or chemical reaction to the body undergoing a dramatic event, with that hallucination being defined by death concepts familiar to us all.

Given those choices, the obvious answer is (2) as it at least has some basis in science, and is by far a simpler proposition than proposing peoples hallucinations validate an entire belief system.

I would imagine people of different faiths (or different cultures) have records of NDEs that reflect their own religious leanings, though I don't have the time to look a the moment!

Beruthiel

If only I had your elequence Dades

midlandsmissus

Yes, but I was looking for information, I was analysing information. It's a bit arrogant of you to assume I was desperate. I most certainly wasnt. I was looking for scientific proof.

toiletduck

Haven't the effects of NDEs been reproduced in experiments? I'm sure I was reading something along those lines recently.


Edit: Actually I think it was on Penn & Teller!

Sangre

Is it only Christians that see and experience Jesus/God when they nearly die?

Why would god even appear to them? He is fully aware they won't die. The event isn't near death to him as he knows exactly what will happen.

robindch

midlandsmissus wrote: »

I was looking for scientific proof.

You won't find proof of anything.

Did you get a chance to look at this:

http://www.csicop.org/si/2004-05/near-death-experience.html

Pompey Magnus

Sangre wrote: »

Is it only Christians that see and experience Jesus/God when they nearly die?

Why would god even appear to them? He is fully aware they won't die. The event isn't near death to him as he knows exactly what will happen.

I read a couple of days ago that the diety waiting for the person involved in a Near Death Experience depends on the religious upbringing of that person. A Christian (or non-believers exposed to Judeo-Christian concepts of the afterlife) tends to see Jesus and God during their experience, Muslims see the prophet Muhammed, Jews see only Yahweh and no Jesus and so on.

Zombrex

As toiletduck says "Near death experiences" have been replicated in experiments. They appear to be caused by stress on the brain (which is naturally going to happen when someone is dying) which cause hallucinations

there is a study going on at the moment where doctors place cards in emergency rooms in positions that can only be seen from above to see if people having NDEs can actually see things from above their body, or if it this is just an hallucination.

as someone else pointed out, personal experiences are not science and certainly not "proof". I often wake up believing I can see someone in my room. When I turn on the light no one is there, but I would swear at the time that I can see the shape of someone. It is my mind playing a trick on me, matching the shapes to the abstract concept of a person.

The mind is a wonderful thing, but it can also be very tricky. Personal experiences should never been taken as the only evidence for something. One should never underestimate the minds ability to deceive.

jasper71

Fighter pilots and astronauts have been studied in centrifuges to see what effect g-froces have on them. Video footage and converstions after have shown that the pilots have experienced the white light and euphoria as they went unconcious. They lost conciousness (i really struggle to spell that word) due to the blood being forced from the brain. Doctors believe that endorphins are released at this point to make the 'crossing' from con. to uncon less traumatic on them.

British politition Michael Portillo did a program on alternatives to modern forms of execution due to the pain and suffering that the prisoners may be subjected to.. They concluded that oxygen starvation would be the most humane way as the oxygen loss made them fell happy, oblivious etc prior to going unconcious. Portillo himself experienced this.

So these feeling combined with a 'belief' and the hope is a reason why people mitake the feelings above to being taken in by St Peter and Co.

condra

Midlandmissus, personally, I agree that your post was met with an overly frosty response.
However, I think one of the reasons for this is because we are bored of people like Gareth37 struttung in smugly asserting their own version of "evidence", and we typically see them to leave with their tails between their legs.

The tone of your post was polite and balanced, and indeed you were asking for opinions rather than saying "rebuke THIS, stupid atheists":p

If you read Betty Eadies 'Embraced By The Light', it is a very moving story, and could very easily "suck you in". But if you are objective and skeptical, absolutely none of her book stands up to scrutiny.
Like aliens, hypnotism and auras, NDEs are by and large a modern American phenomenon, and a much publicised one at that, so the fact that many of the storys have things in common is not really evidence at all.
Personally, I would be more interested in the many conflicting elements of these storys. The arguments against NDEs are very convincing.

I applaud you for seeking proof of the supernatural, but I think you will find your own "proof", if your will to believe is stronger than your ability to enquire and scrutinise in an objective, skeptical (or indeed cynical) fashion.

Zillah

womoma wrote: »

Midlandmissus, personally, I agree that your post was met with an overly frosty response.

Welcome to the A&A forum!

condra

See? Hell has frozen over

Bottle_of_Smoke

I wonder why decapitated people never return from Heaven for unfinished business.

midlandsmissus

womoma wrote: »

Midlandmissus, personally, I agree that your post was met with an overly frosty response.
However, I think one of the reasons for this is because we are bored of people like Gareth37 struttung in smugly asserting their own version of "evidence", and we typically see them to leave with their tails between their legs.

The tone of your post was polite and balanced, and indeed you were asking for opinions rather than saying "rebuke THIS, stupid atheists":p

If you read Betty Eadies 'Embraced By The Light', it is a very moving story, and could very easily "suck you in". But if you are objective and skeptical, absolutely none of her book stands up to scrutiny.
Like aliens, hypnotism and auras, NDEs are by and large a modern American phenomenon, and a much publicised one at that, so the fact that many of the storys have things in common is not really evidence at all.
Personally, I would be more interested in the many conflicting elements of these storys. The arguments against NDEs are very convincing.

I applaud you for seeking proof of the supernatural, but I think you will find your own "proof", if your will to believe is stronger than your ability to enquire and scrutinise in an objective, skeptical (or indeed cynical) fashion.

Hi Womoma,

thank you very much for your kind post. I think the difference between me and Gareth is that I am not actively trying to convert people:), and I am very concsious of the fact that overly religious people can be unbearingly annoying. I just find myself interested in everyones views. I've never actually read her full book. Can you download that? As regards physiologically, say if you were actually braindead, would a lack of CO2 - creating a tunnel effect, really impact on you?

--amadeus--

midlandsmissus wrote: »

As regards physiologically, say if you were actually braindead, would a lack of CO2 - creating a tunnel effect, really impact on you?

If you are actually medically braindead then you're dead and there's no coming back.

I don't see what the big deal is here. People undergoing a consistent set of physical circumstances display similar physiological effects; aural and visual hallucinations are a common feature of many medical conditions so tbh I would be more impressed with "near death experiences" if they were a little less consistent!

And how come we only hear about people going up to the light? Why never down to the darkness - are we all saved???

condra

I've never actually read her full book. Can you download that?

I'm not sure. I presume its available to buy on Amazon. I would post it to you only it belongs to my mother. I think your twenty euro would be better spent on a book by Richard Dawkins or Christopher Hitchens.

lostexpectation

midlandsmissus wrote: »

Beruthiel, i'll give it to you, you're a hard man to argue with! Not I don't feel I have any points to come back with, but just that the nasty tone nw in this thread is making me upset.. And if I say that I know I'll get the whole "What are you doing on this board then"

All I wanted was a bit of discussion on the matter, a few opinions. I would have liked the physiological side of it explained to me. Why the need to be so nasty and 'Oh you're clutching at straws', when that totally wasn't what this was about!?

where was the nasty tone?

Gauge

I think by 'nasty tone' she means people not agreeing with her.

midlandsmissus

I think by 'nasty tone' she means people not agreeing with her.

Nice try. no I meant the 'you're clutching at straws bit', when I was just looking for opinions. I was a new poster and a bit wet behind the ears. Have toughened up now!:)

Zillah

midlandsmissus wrote: »

Have toughened up now!:)

Good! Most people don't manage to get that far.

condra

agreed. you're playin' a stormer mm