HANDGUN OWNERS: new law banning handguns

c-note

hello.
i would have posted in the shooting forum but they dicussions on
the "right to keep and bear arms" is not allowed there.
so i thought i'd post here as it is law and news:
if it dont belong here either feel free to move it along:D

it seems that handguns will no longer be legal in ireland and all legally held handguns will have to be sold, i.e. will not be reliscenced.

if you own a handgun i suspect you know this already:rolleyes:

i'm guessing that the purpose of owning a handgun is just for
target/range shooting?. as i can think of no other legal use for one in ireland (i dont imagaine they'd be much good for hunting??)

i also noted in the shooting forum that many people are quite unhappy with the new legislation, understandably as most of them are likely law abiding, peace loving folk!

i own a shotgun myself as i keep sheep and have regretably had to shoot
neighbours dogs and foxes as well as clearing crows off silage bales and corn feilds.
i have a friend who own rifels, they use them for hunting rather than pest control, and sometimes eat what he shoots.
i consider the two circumstances above legitimate grounds to keep a firearm.

A friend of mine from dublin asked me if i could "vouch" for him at a garda station, that i would permit him to shoot on my land in order that he could get a shotgun liscence. the fact is that he had little or no intention of shooting on my land (which i dont permit anyway), and he was more interesting in the notion of owning a gun. i blankly refused!

and so i'm asking of the handgun owning population, what your motivation for owning a handgun, as opposed to a rifle, or shotgun, is?

also for the RESPONSIBLE handgun owning population:
have you experienced other gunowners who would cause you concern at owning a gun (of any kind), i know lots of men and some women can be slightly mesmorised by the sight of a gun and seem to assume the persona of a "gansta" (something out of pulp fiction or some action film) when they hold the thing?

Sparks

1. We don't have a right to keep and bear arms and frankly, aren't terribly interested in one, the same way GAA players aren't interested in a right to keep and bear hurleys.
2. Handguns will remain legal in Ireland but the licencing requirements will get a lot more stringent (though given how stringent they are right now, it will be interesting to see how it's possible to tighten them up at all)
3. All the folk in the Shooting forum are law-abiding peace-loving folk, thank you.
4. As a handgun owner myself (a single-shot .177 calibre olympic air pistol), my motivation for owning it is the same as a hurley player's motivation for owning a hurley or a golfer's motivation for owning a putter.
5. If you encounter a firearms owner who causes you concern because they own a firearm, the correct procedure is to inform a garda. That's what we do (that, and kick them out of our clubs, which puts them in breach of their firearms cert conditions and which gets their firearms confiscated).

Dr_Teeth

c-note wrote: »

also for the RESPONSIBLE handgun owning population:
have you experienced other gunowners who would cause you concern at owning a gun (of any kind), i know lots of men and some women can be slightly mesmorised by the sight of a gun and seem to assume the persona of a "gansta" (something out of pulp fiction or some action film) when they hold the thing?

Well c-note, in order to apply for a pistol licence you must be a member of a target shooting club and they have to vouch for you as being active in the sport and being able to safely handle one. There are many other conditions, and months of paperwork and interviews which I won't go into.

Target shooting clubs are few in number, and their shooting ranges are closely regulated by the Gardai. In fact, pretty-much all of them have Gardai of various ranks as members.

The target shooting community is small and everyone seems to know each other (which can be annoying at times!). "Gangsta" behaviour as you put it would not be tolerated for a second, I have never encountered someone like that myself.

johnnyskeleton

I don't think outlawing handguns will reduce the supply of weapons to criminals in any substantial way, but I think if it can stem the tide slightly then I'm all for it, especially since I don't think wanting to enjoy target practice as a sport is a good justification for keeping them legal.

Sparks

if it can stem the tide slightly

A single shipment of smuggled drugs and guns intercepted a year or so ago by the Gardai coming in from the continent contained more pistols than were legally licenced in the state at that time (including air, smallbore, fullbore, human dispatch and starting pistols).
That was one shipment.
So exactly what's your definition of "slightly", because I think the definition of "negligible" needs to be considered as well.

c-note

Interesting to see the poll results so far,
its good to hear that you have to be a vouched for member of a club before you can apply for a liscence to get a handgun.

also i'm not sure i understand the points raised by sparks:

Sparks wrote: »

We don't have a right to keep and bear arms and frankly, aren't terribly interested in one, the same way GAA players aren't interested in a right to keep and bear hurleys.

maybe i'm not familiar with the full meaning and implications of "the right to keep and bear"
but surely if you have a legally held gun, you have the right to have it, as with hurleys, hats, horses and other nouns begining with H!!

Sparks wrote: »

All the folk in the Shooting forum are law-abiding peace-loving folk, thank you.

i'm quite sure of it! i didnt mean to imply otherwise:)

Sparks wrote: »

As a handgun owner myself (a single-shot .177 calibre olympic air pistol), my motivation for owning it is the same as a hurley player's motivation for owning a hurley or a golfer's motivation for owning a putter.

i guess you dont mean to play hurling or golf with!!:D,
but the question i was asking is why specifically a HANDGUN as opposed to a rifle, (price, storage, etc??), and what do you shoot?? (bottles/targets/birds ??)


anyhows
i do feel sorry for the guys who are going to loose their hobby (or a part of it at least). but i also think Handguns are too easily concealed so that in the event they did fall into the wrong hands pose a more sinister threat, e.g. your prob not going to make it into a niteclub with a rifle hidden about your person!!

also in regard to the post above.
that may have been the case then, but theres now 1800 handguns liscenced,
i dont want it to be the case that theres 18000 in 5-10 yrs time.
also your right that they're not being banned altogehter, just tougher liscensing,
i suppose if you have a good reason to own a handgun you'd welcome this?

Sparks

c-note wrote: »

maybe i'm not familiar with the full meaning and implications of "the right to keep and bear"
but surely if you have a legally held gun, you have the right to have it, as with hurleys, hats, horses and other nouns begining with H!!

The RKBA refers to the enumerated right in the US constitution's second amendment for people to keep and bear arms.

but the question i was asking is why specifically a HANDGUN as opposed to a rifle

For the same reason you don't use a soccer ball in rugby - it's a different sport!

and what do you shoot?? (bottles/targets/birds ??)

Paper targets. This was in UCD last year at the nationals:

i also think Handguns are too easily concealed so that in the event they did fall into the wrong hands pose a more sinister threat, e.g. your prob not going to make it into a niteclub with a rifle hidden about your person!!

So we're to be punished to prevent a possible future criminal act by someone else?

that may have been the case then, but theres now 1800 handguns liscenced,

That's 20% less per capita than there was in 1971.
Look, here's some background on this whole thing. Please read it.

i suppose if you have a good reason to own a handgun you'd welcome this?

Depends on what "this" is, what "this" will solve, and what "this" will cost, doesn't it?

Manic Moran

but surely if you have a legally held gun, you have the right to have it, as with hurleys, hats, horses and other nouns begining with H!!

There's a difference between a right and a privilige. Generally speaking, the only rights you have are those in the Constitution. You have as much right to a handgun as you do to a hurley as you do to drive a car: None. If the government lets you have it, it's a privilige.

"Right to Keep and Bear Arms" in normal conversation is a term used specifically for the American jurisdictions, as that's the way it's phrased in the US Constitution. Given that the US philosophy on firearms is radically different from the Irish philosophy, the simplest way to avoid confusion is to basically not reference the US right. In most US jurisdictions, you actually do have a right (not a privilige) to go around with a pistol for the purpose of shooting people. This emphatically is not the case in Ireland, hence the desire for the distinction.

This was in UCD last year at the nationals:

I see the boiler house hasn't received much of a facelift in recent years

i was asking is why specifically a HANDGUN as opposed to a rifle, (price, storage, etc??), and what do you shoot??

Mainly targets in my case. I'm not sure if hunting with a pistol is actually legal in Ireland, but it's not an unknown sport around the world. Harder than hunting with a rifle as you need to get a lot closer to your quarry.

also your right that they're not being banned altogehter, just tougher liscensing,

It's already pretty damned tough. Just what more would you suggest?

This really isn't the greatest thread for the legal board. Legally speaking, as far as I can tell, if the Goverment wants to totally ban firearms they can do so. If they want to totally abandon licensing and turn it into a Yemen-like free-for-all, they can do so. What exactly they do do is a political decision, there's already a thread about it on Politics.

NTM

Sparks

Manic Moran wrote: »

In most US jurisdictions, you actually do have a right (not a privilige) to go around with a pistol for the purpose of shooting people. This emphatically is not the case in Ireland, hence the desire for the distinction.

Precisely.

I see the boiler house hasn't received much of a facelift in recent years

Actually, that was last year. This was last weekend, you might notice an upgrade in the equipment (and everyone else might get a better sense of the sport we're debating killing off here):