Libertas is a conspiracy

nyarlothothep

I believe that Libertas is a neocon conspiracy to de-stabilize Europe in order to prevent it becoming a unified power, as they see it as a threat to US supremacy. Where did they get the funding/support from? Imo Declan Ganley is a highly dubious individual, who isn't working in the interests of democracy or on behalf of European people at all, but merely furthering the interests of a small clique of wealthy extreme right wing nuts in America. Imo he and his party should be investigated and should be forced to disclose all financial information in full detail immediately about contributions etc.

nyarlothothep

nyarlothothep wrote: »

I believe that Libertas is a neocon conspiracy to de-stabilize Europe in order to prevent it becoming a unified power, as they see it as a threat to US supremacy. Where did they get the funding/support from? Imo Declan Ganley is a highly dubious individual, who isn't working in the interests of democracy or on behalf of European people at all, but merely furthering the interests of a small clique of wealthy extreme right wing nuts in America. Imo he and his party should be investigated and should be forced to disclose all financial information in full detail immediately about contributions etc.

Motivations aside, I think the misinformation about Lisbon that was spread was pretty appalling. Not to mention the blatant appeal to emotion of those "people died for your freedom" posters.

Run_to_da_hills

Thomas J. Clarke, Sean Mac Diarmada, Thomas MacDonagh, P.H. Pearse, Eamonn Ceannt, James Connolly, Joseph Plunkett would have all turned in their graves had the people of Ireland voted YES.

Run_to_da_hills

Run_to_da_hills wrote: »

Thomas J. Clarke, Sean Mac Diarmada, Thomas MacDonagh, P.H. Pearse, Eamonn Ceannt, James Connolly, Joseph Plunkett would have all turned in their graves had the people of Ireland voted YES.

That is exactly what I was talking about.

bonkey

Isn't it ironic that we're being told that our "founding fathers" would turn in their grave because we exercised our democratic freedom to choose.

I wasn't aware that they fought and died to force us into a slavery of doing what people tell me they would have wished.

Run_to_da_hills

King Mob wrote: »

That is exactly what I was talking about.

As in it's a argument from authority and an appeal to emotion(patriotism) thus a logical fallacy.
Designed to be a very intellectually dishonest way to make an argument.
Do you think the founding fathers would agree that a vote should be influenced by dishonest argument rather than actual debate?

Run_to_da_hills

King Mob wrote: »

As in it's a argument from authority and an appeal to emotion(patriotism) thus a logical fallacy.
Designed to be a very intellectually dishonest way to make an argument.
Do you think the founding fathers would agree that a vote should be influenced by dishonest argument rather than actual debate?

Its more of an issue about ripping our constitution to shreds and the fear of the unknown.

You have the cheek to talk about dishonesty when at the same time the ordinary citizens in all other european nations including the UK didn't even have the chance to vote YES or NO on this rigged European Referendum.

This is what I call fascism and is synonymous with the likes of the former Soviet Union and Nazi Germany.

Diogenes

Run_to_da_hills wrote: »

Its more of an issue about ripping our constitution to shreds and the fear of the unknown.

You have the cheek to talk about dishonesty when at the same time the ordinary citizens in all other european nations including the UK didn't even have the chance to vote YES or NO on this rigged European Referendum.

This is what I call fascism and is synonymous with the likes of the former Soviet Union and Nazi Germany.

Yes because the death camps and gulags are just driving property prices down around Ireland.

Run_to_da_hills

Run_to_da_hills wrote: »

Its more of an issue about ripping our constitution to shreds and the fear of the unknown.

I argee completely. You have apparently absolutely no idea about the Lisbon treaty thus are afraid of it. There are certain groups who spread this fear and uncertainty rather than debate the issues.

Run_to_da_hills wrote: »

You have the cheek to talk about dishonesty when at the same time the ordinary citizens in all other european nations including the UK didn't even have the chance to vote YES or NO on this rigged European Referendum.

So they didn't vote but if they did it would be rigged? Thats some logic. Have you any basis to believe that any of the votes where rigged other than you own speculation?
Perhaps you can answer my earlier question(which I've asked three time without a response): Did the Lisbon Treaty legally need to be put to a referendum in England?

Run_to_da_hills wrote: »

This is what I call fascism and is synonymous with the likes of the former Soviet Union and Nazi Germany.

Goodwins!

Run_to_da_hills

Diogenes wrote: »

Yes because the death camps and gulags are just driving property prices down around Ireland.

With the high price of gas there is no fear of any death camps in Ireland. :pac:

King Mob wrote: »

I argee completely. You have apparently absolutely no idea about the Lisbon treaty thus are afraid of it. There are certain groups who spread this fear and uncertainty rather than debate the issues.!

Whose spreading fear?

King Mob wrote: »

So they didn't vote but if they did it would be rigged? Thats some logic. Have you any basis to believe that any of the votes where rigged other than you own speculation?!

In an honest democracy EVERY ONE should have the right to vote. Would you honestly call the European Constitution democratic? :rolleyes:

King Mob wrote: »

Perhaps you can answer my earlier question(which I've asked three time without a response): Did the Lisbon Treaty legally need to be put to a referendum in England?

Yes it should have and was promised in an election manifesto. Unfortunately the UK constitution had flaws and let this poisonous document in the back door. :eek:

I thank God for our forefathers for drafting up such a watertight constitution in 1916 and lets hope that it is not destroyed by a YES vote in the fourtcoming referendum. :eek:

zuroph

it upsets me how many people voted no. we're a nation of idiots.

Run_to_da_hills

Run_to_da_hills wrote: »

Whose spreading fear?

I'd guess the people saying that Europe is going to bring us into wars and bring in a draft. Not to mention the ones who are claiming that we are going to all be chipped and monitored and have no rights.

Run_to_da_hills wrote: »

In an honest democracy EVERY ONE should have the RIGHT to vote. Would you honestly call the European Constitution democratic?

Um.. yes?
Why isn't it?

Run_to_da_hills wrote: »

Yes it should have and was promised in an election manifesto. Unfortunately the UK constitution had flaws and let this poison in the back door.

The election manifesto referred to the European Constitution which in all likelihood needed to be voted in. The Lisbon Treaty is not the same thing. You have still not answered my question on whether a vote was required or not.

Run_to_da_hills wrote: »

I thank God for our forefathers for having such a watertight Irish
constitution and lets hope that it is not destroyed by a YES vote in the next referendum.

Can you elaborate on this? How exactly is the Lisbon Treaty going to destroy the constitution?

clark nova

Its far more sinister then that, the libertas illuminati are actually from the planet yuggoth, and are here to impregnate the minds of forum with their young, telepathically.
The side effects of the aliens gestation is of course belief in dumb conspiracies and referencing H. P lovecraft.

zuroph

Skippy65 wrote: »

The fact is that the Lisbon Treaty raised too many questions and was extremely unclear. Irish people are not stupid and if they felt that this treaty would benefit the country they would have voted yes, no matter what libertas had to say. Clearly they felt that it threatened national identity and our neutrality which are two of many reasons for the resounding NO vote. For example funding an EU defense army and remaining neutral dont go together. So why do those of you that support the treaty think that you are so much wiser than the majority of the population? Do you think that you are that great that only you can see the great benefits that Lisbon would have to offer. Seriously get over yourselves. Some of the funding that libertas received remains undisclosed but so what! Most of the funding received by every political party in the country remains undisclosed. So why not question their integrity? Maybe if somebody did their would less 'dig outs' and the like!

so much wrong with this post, I suggest u read the politics forum before we go off topic here.

clark nova

The signs are all around you my friend.

Number one) Thats terror.

Skippy65

Skippy65 wrote: »

The fact is that the Lisbon Treaty raised too many questions and was extremely unclear. Irish people are not stupid and if they felt that this treaty would benefit the country they would have voted yes, no matter what libertas had to say. Clearly they felt that it threatened national identity and our neutrality which are two of many reasons for the resounding NO vote.

Actually, the main reason people voted NO was because they didn't understand the treaty as evidenced by this Irish Times poll.
http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/ireland/2008/0618/1213735259853.html

Groups who spread deliberate misinformation like wars and drafts and people who use arguments from authority didn't exactly help matters.

Diogenes

King Mob wrote: »

Actually, the main reason people voted NO was because they didn't understand the treaty as evidenced by this Irish Times poll.
http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/ireland/2008/0618/1213735259853.html

Groups who spread deliberate misinformation like wars and drafts and people who use arguments from authority didn't exactly help matters.

No see The lisbon treaty will mean Ireland can't be neutral and overide our constitution, as well as put RFID chips on our fags, but the lisbon treaty treaty doesn't mention any of this, it just means it will happen.

Diogenes

Diogenes wrote: »

No see The lisbon treaty will mean Ireland can't be neutral and overide our constitution, as well as put RFID chips on our fags, but the lisbon treaty treaty doesn't mention any of this, it just means it will happen.

Oh ok. Since you put it like that I guess I'll take your word for it:p

RichTea

Run_to_da_hills wrote: »

Thomas J. Clarke, Sean Mac Diarmada, Thomas MacDonagh, P.H. Pearse, Eamonn Ceannt, James Connolly, Joseph Plunkett would have all turned in their graves had the people of Ireland voted YES.

errrr why?

Run_to_da_hills

RichTea wrote: »

errrr why?

It would be just like placing the tricolour on the ground and trampelling all over it in mucky boots.

Diogenes

Run_to_da_hills wrote: »

It would be just like placing the tricolour on the ground and trampelling all over it in mucky boots.

Again nice metaphorical language aside, you're not explaining the why

Run_to_da_hills

Diogenes wrote: »

Again nice metaphorical language aside, you're not explaining the why

A state must have its state symbols, so Article I-6a gives the EU anthem, flag, motto and annual holiday - Europe Day - a treaty-cum-constitutional basis for the first time.

Previously these had no legal basis whatever. Also one can only be a citizen of a state, so the constitution makes us legally real EU citizens for the first time, as previously the EU as such did not have legal personality or an independent corporate existence; only the European Community(EC) had that.

An Irish lights tender "The Graunaile" moored in Dunlaoghaire harbour in the 80's, the Commissioners of Irish Lights flag which is based on the St George was raised in a higher position that the Irish Tricolor. A threatening phone call was made to the head office to have this matter correct ASAP. It never happened again.

Could you imagine some day during a EU convention in Ireland if the EU flag was to be raised higher than the Tricolor and all other EU members flags? I could well happen. If there are several flags together No flag should be raised higher than the Tricolor in Ireland!

Run_to_da_hills

Run_to_da_hills wrote: »

A state must have its state symbols, so Article I-6a gives the EU anthem, flag, motto and annual holiday - Europe Day - a treaty-cum-constitutional basis for the first time.

Oh god no not a holiday!

Run_to_da_hills wrote: »

Previously these had no legal basis whatever. Also one can only be a citizen of a state, so the constitution makes us legally real EU citizens for the first time, as previously the EU as such did not have legal personality or an independent corporate existence; only the European Community(EC) had that.

Please explain why this is a bad thing.

Run_to_da_hills wrote: »

An Irish lights tender "The Graunaile" moored in Dunlaoghaire harbour in the 80's, the Commissioners of Irish Lights flag which is based on the St George was raised in a higher position that the Irish Tricolor. A threatening phone call was made to the head office to have this matter correct ASAP. It never happened again.

Cos nothing says patriotism like threats of violence. Hurrah for democracy .

Run_to_da_hills wrote: »

Could you imagine some day during a EU convention in Ireland if the EU flag was to be raised higher than the Tricolor and all other EU members flags? I could well happen. If there are several flags together No flag should be raised higher than the Tricolor in Ireland!

No one would care except petty anti EU nutjobs?

Run_to_da_hills

King Mob wrote: »

Oh god no not a holiday!

They might substitute it for Paddy's day seen as it will be of no significance

King Mob wrote: »

Please explain why this is a bad thing.

I am born and bred in Ireland and proud of it. I was appalled a number of years ago when the Irish passport changed to maroon.

This is only the start of it. The next drivers license will be pan European, in colour shape and size and not alone that every offense down to the last parking ticket will carry right across Europe. This is the European integration you want and will get and don't start whinging in the AH Forum when you get an Irish court summonse for a toll road or parking offense committed in Barcelona or Paris.

King Mob wrote: »

Cos nothing says patriotism like threats of violence. Hurrah for democracy.

ROFL. Democracy my ho*le for something that has been forced in the back door of 25 European states bar Ireland. and at that it is being forced down our troth until we submit

King Mob wrote: »

No one would care except petty anti EU nutjobs?

I am talking of the same breed of idiots that don't shut their mouth and stand up when Amhran Na BhFiann is being played.

oscarBravo

Run_to_da_hills wrote: »

A state must have its state symbols, so Article I-6a gives the EU anthem, flag, motto and annual holiday - Europe Day - a treaty-cum-constitutional basis for the first time.

Article 1.6 of the Lisbon treaty:

The following Article 3b shall be inserted, replacing Article 5 of the Treaty establishing the European Community:

‘Article 3b

1. The limits of Union competences are governed by the principle of conferral. The use of Union competences is governed by the principles of subsidiarity and proportionality.

2. Under the principle of conferral, the Union shall act only within the limits of the competences conferred upon it by the Member States in the Treaties to attain the objectives set
out therein. Competences not conferred upon the Union in the Treaties remain with the Member States.

3. Under the principle of subsidiarity, in areas which do not fall within its exclusive competence, the Union shall act only if and insofar as the objectives of the proposed action cannot be sufficiently achieved by the Member States, either at central level or at regional and local level, but can rather, by reason of the scale or effects of the proposed action, be better
achieved at Union level.

The institutions of the Union shall apply the principle of subsidiarity as laid down in the Protocol on the application of the principles of subsidiarity and proportionality. National
Parliaments ensure compliance with the principle of subsidiarity in accordance with the procedure set out in that Protocol.

4. Under the principle of proportionality, the content and form of Union action shall not exceed what is necessary to achieve the objectives of the Treaties.

The institutions of the Union shall apply the principle of proportionality as laid down in the Protocol on the application of the principles of subsidiarity and proportionality.’.

Perhaps you were referring to Article I-8 of the defunct Treaty Establishing a Constitution for Europe? Because there's no mention of flags, anthems or holidays in Lisbon.

oscarBravo

Run_to_da_hills wrote: »

The next drivers license will be pan European, in colour shape and size and not alone that every offense down to the last parking ticket will carry right across Europe.

Nope, can't find that in the Lisbon Treaty either.

Let me guess: you've never read the treaty?

trentf

raindrops and lollipops a do do do a dooo...:)

oscarBravo

trentf wrote: »

raindrops and lollipops a do do do a dooo...:)

That's precisely the level of intelligent debate I've come to expect from you.

Run_to_da_hills

oscarBravo wrote: »

Nope, can't find that in the Lisbon Treaty either.

Let me guess: you've never read the treaty?

You will find it written here.

Ó´óµÀ·ãÏãÍ¥½»»ã·¿ÚÖÁÌìÌìÓæ¸ÛÊ®×Ö·¿Ú¶Î½øÐÐ×¹€ÆÚ¼äʵÐеÀ·½»Í¨¹ÜÖÆ£¬ÇëÔñµÀ¶øÐС£ ¡¡¡¡¾ÝÏ€£¬´ËÑÓÉ춹ÛÒôÇÅÉÌȦÔÚ½¨3Ìõ²½ÐнÖÖеÄÒ»Ìõ£¬½«ÔÚÃ÷Äê´º½ÚÇ°

oscarBravo wrote: »

Let me guess: you've never read the treaty?

How many do you think from the Dail has read it ?

Run_to_da_hills

Run_to_da_hills wrote: »

You will find it written here.

Ó´óµÀ·ãÏãÍ¥½»»ã·¿ÚÖÁÌìÌìÓæ¸ÛÊ®×Ö·¿Ú¶Î½øÐÐ×¹€ÆÚ¼äʵÐеÀ·½»Í¨¹ÜÖÆ£¬ÇëÔñµÀ¶øÐС£ ¡¡¡¡¾ÝÏ€£¬´ËÑÓÉ춹ÛÒôÇÅÉÌȦÔÚ½¨3Ìõ²½ÐнÖÖеÄÒ»Ìõ£¬½«ÔÚÃ÷Äê´º½ÚÇ°

How many do you think from the Dail has read it ?

So then you haven't read it?
You're just making all the stuff up about it bringing in RFID?
I'm shocked, a believer in conspiracy theories being intellectually dishonest.......

Run_to_da_hills

King Mob wrote: »

So then you haven't read it?
You're just making all the stuff up about it bringing in RFID?
I'm shocked.

No its in the smal print. :rolleyes:

Run_to_da_hills

Run_to_da_hills wrote: »

No its in the smal print. :rolleyes:

Going to back that up in anyway, you know with actual evidence?

zuroph

":rolleyes:":rolleyes:

Run_to_da_hills

Run_to_da_hills wrote: »

Thomas J. Clarke, Sean Mac Diarmada, Thomas MacDonagh, P.H. Pearse, Eamonn Ceannt, James Connolly, Joseph Plunkett would have all turned in their graves had the people of Ireland voted YES.

they sure would but YES will probably get the vote next time around:mad:

zuroph

rarnes1 wrote: »

they sure would but YES will probably get the vote next time around:mad:

and more power to the yes voters, at least they dont have to tell lies to get the vote.

Run_to_da_hills

rarnes1 wrote: »

they sure would but YES will probably get the vote next time around:mad:

Of Course they will, National pride has gone the toilet, You see tricolors thrown on the ground after matches, one very rarely hears Amhran Na Bhiann played by a live band or Disco any more. Its a shame.

Sweden just signed a pact with the BEAST on Wednesday. The Sheeple of Ireland will all follow the same sheeple to the Slaughter houst of Brussels. When this pact with the Devil is signed Ireland will become the RUNT of Europe.

Only last month there was national outcry when the Government tried to reveres the medical cards for pensioners, The Government backed down. If the European Parliament made a similar move IRELAND WOULD ONLY HAVE A 3% SAY, In other words we would have NO chance of fighting against this totalitarian dictatorship if we did not agree to a policy.

Our 10 years grace of Corporation TAX sweetener will go down the Toilet, along with Obamas policy US and Foreign companies will be queuing up to leave the country.

People see the outside of this European Constitution but the fail to see the inside of it and the small print of which is rotten to the core.

nyarlothothep

hey I was hoping we could drag Declan Ganley's name through the mud

fumpidge

nyarlothothep wrote: »

hey I was hoping we could drag Declan Ganley's name through the mud

Back to that man, the Government would give their right hands for a publicity candidate like Ginley. It is now turning into a propaganda battle and this is only the beginning.

zuroph

what sickens me is that declan ganley will probably run for election soon, and people will vote for him, just cos he was the "vote no" guy. i just dont trust him.

studiorat

Run_to_da_hills wrote: »

An Irish lights tender "The Graunaile" moored in Dunlaoghaire harbour in the 80's, the Commissioners of Irish Lights flag which is based on the St George was raised in a higher position that the Irish Tricolor. A threatening phone call was made to the head office to have this matter correct ASAP. It never happened again.

Could you imagine some day during a EU convention in Ireland if the EU flag was to be raised higher than the Tricolor and all other EU members flags? I could well happen. If there are several flags together No flag should be raised higher than the Tricolor in Ireland!

Tell us more about this threatening phone call?

This flag-waving crap is exactly the issue I have with Libertas, Coir, Sinn Fein and the various other nationalist nut jobs that crawl out from under every stone when Irelands involvement in the EU is under question.

"the objective of this treaty is a United States of Europe with a European army. Irish people will be compelled to fight wars with European powers decide to wage. Neutrality will go and compulsory military service for our youth will be introduced"

The above quote is from Sinn Fein in 1973 against Ireland joining the EEC. The No campagain have consistantly used scare mongering to dissuade the electorate from voting to ratify the treaty. Historical fact!

Ireland will continue to be overrepresented in the EU. Ireland represents 1/27th of the Member States votes.
In other words Ireland retains 3.7% of the voting weight despite having less than 1% of the population of the EU. It's also important to point out that each EU comissioner is responsible for every EU citizen, not just their fellow country-men.

Lisbon is a good deal (especially for the smaller countries).That's why the government and opposition politicans of Finland, Denmark, Lithuania and Slovakia who get the same deal as us are behind it.

Run_to_da_hills

studiorat wrote: »

Tell us more about this threatening phone call?

I don't know much more other than what I already mentioned as it was well over 20 years ago during the height of troubles. The Irish Lighthouse service is run by Trinity House which is also a part of English Scottish and Welsh light house service.

studiorat wrote: »

This flag-waving crap is exactly the issue I have with Libertas, Coir, Sinn Fein and the various other nationalist nut jobs that crawl out from under every stone when Ireland's involvement in the EU is under question.

This has nothing got to do with waving a piece of cloth, its about principals. I am fully supportive of democracy, our forefathers fought for it. I hate to see all this thrown away with a Pan European undemocratic document. The people of Ireland voted NO end of story.

studiorat wrote: »

The above quote is from Sinn Fein in 1973 against Ireland joining the EEC. The No campaign have consistently used scare mongering to dissuade the electorate from voting to ratify the treaty. Historical fact!

I had nothing against Joining the EEC back in 1975 as I was led to believe that it was just an economic trade agreement, However it is now developing itself into a powerful monster that is snowballing in size as it takes on more and more roles.

studiorat wrote: »

Ireland will continue to be overrepresented in the EU. Ireland represents 1/27th of the Member States votes.
In other words Ireland retains 3.7% of the voting weight despite having less than 1% of the population of the EU. It's also important to point out that each EU commissioner is responsible for every EU citizen, not just their fellow country-men. .

It is minuscule to what control the people of Ireland have over the Dail. Could you imagine Ireland trying to reverse a decision that effected our country that was passed by a majority EU vote? Not a hope in hell.

studiorat

Run_to_da_hills wrote: »

It is minuscule to what control the people of Ireland have over the Dail. Could you imagine Ireland trying to reverse a decision that effected our country that was passed by a majority EU vote? Not a hope in hell.

Control over the Daíl is already pretty minuscule. Laws are passed all the time without referenda, that's democracy for ya. It's why we have elections, to choose these people to make these laws for us...

Regarding Lisbon, you really need to examine specific areas as different areas require either a unamanious vote or a qualified majority. The veto is retained in, for example, Common Foreign and Security Policy and taxation.

What it does in my opinion is make it more important for us to look carefully at who we vote for before we send them to Europe.