Department's report on the Digital Terrestrial Television Trial

The Cush

The Dept of Communications Report on the Digital Terrestrial Television Trial is now up on http://www.digitaltelevision.ie/.

bk

Interesting to note that from the user survey, almost all participants wanted to see the basic 4 UK channels on it (BBC1, 2, UTV, C4) and 9 out of 10 of them expected the UK channels to be FREE.

73% expected there to be a free news channel.

Most where only willing to pay for sports and movie channels and there preferred method of payment was a one of charge!!

Yet despite all this, the government decided to go ahead and create a crippled DTT service with the basic UK channels being pay channels.

This really doesn't look good for Boxer and the general the success of DTT in Ireland.

From this survey it also looks like a combined DTT and Freesat box would be a massive hit here.

Really non of this should be surprising to any of us here, pretty much as expected.

MarkK

bk wrote: »

Yet despite all this, the government decided to go ahead and create a crippled DTT service with the basic UK channels being pay channels.

I don't see there was any realistic alternative to BBC1 and BBC2 being pay channels if they were to be on Irish DTT.

The only way I could think of is to pay for them via the TV License.

bk

MarkK wrote: »

I don't see there was any realistic alternative to BBC1 and BBC2 being pay channels if they were to be on Irish DTT.

The only way I could think of is to pay for them via the TV License.

Well I'm sure C4 and UTV would have been happy to go on it for free (they make their money via advertising).

And I'm sure the government could have arranged a once off cheap token payment to the British government for the BBC, perhaps some reciprocal deal for Freeview to carry RTE up North.

It would likely have cost them far less then what it will likely cost them to pick up all the pieces when boxer and DTT fail in Ireland.

At the very least I expect that the Irish government will need to heavily subsidise DTT set top boxes and heavily advertise it in order to get people to take it up before the switch off.

Had Irish DTT been more like Freeview, then the government probably wouldn't need to subside the DTT boxes as it would sell itself.

PauloMN

bk wrote: »

Well I'm sure C4 and UTV would have been happy to go on it for free (they make their money via advertising).

And I'm sure the government could have arranged a once off cheap token payment to the British government for the BBC, perhaps some reciprocal deal for Freeview to carry RTE up North.

It would likely have cost them far less then what it will likely cost them to pick up all the pieces when boxer and DTT fail in Ireland.

At the very least I expect that the Irish government will need to heavily subsidise DTT set top boxes and heavily advertise it in order to get people to take it up before the switch off.

Had Irish DTT been more like Freeview, then the government probably wouldn't need to subside the DTT boxes as it would sell itself.

Agree completely.

4 x Irish DTT channels on their own is a poor offering. It's no wonder the survey found that combi DVB-T and DVB-S boxes would be hugely popular here. Will definitely be the route I take if/when I want to add TVs around the house. Wire up my UHF antenna for the DTT, quad LNB on the dish and job done - no stupid subs for free channels.

Imagine paying for BBC/UTV in this day and age.... FFS! :eek: Irish people will NOT pay for something they can get free elsewhere.

Antenna

MarkK wrote: »

The only way I could think of is to pay for them via the TV License.

even if that were to happen, you would then no doubt have TV3 demanding that their transmission on DTT be also paid for by the licence fee. City Channel/Channel South, Channel 6 would in turn all jump on the band-wagon demanding Irish DTT carriage paid for by the licence fee, if this were to be done with UK channels.

The reality is that hopes of free carriage of UK channels on Irish DTT (or DAB) is a non-runner

STB

Two words..... rights issues.

PauloMN

I have to admit to knowing nothing about rights issues, station funding etc., but what I do wonder is how can there be an issue with rights when all regions of the BBC stations are available as FTA on satellite?

If any Joe Soap in basically any part of Western Europe can throw a dish up and stick an FTA box into it to receive BBC, why can't those same channels be carried on a system like our DTT without charge?

TheDriver

PauloMN wrote: »

Agree completely.

Imagine paying for BBC/UTV in this day and age.... FFS! :eek: Irish people will NOT pay for something they can get free elsewhere.

I disagree, most people I know with Sky never watch anything other than Irish and Free UK channels anyways and have no comprehension of free TV and what they don't need to pay for.

channelsurfer

agree with The Driver. of the numerous people I know with sky, nearly all of em except a few wise souls, wouldnt realise that if they stopped subscribing they would get bbc etc free. Ah well guess the Sky Propogranda machine does its job well.

Antenna

PauloMN wrote: »

If any Joe Soap in basically any part of Western Europe can throw a dish up and stick an FTA box into it to receive BBC, why can't those same channels be carried on a system like our DTT without charge?

the cost of 'rights' would be very small compared to the costs of nationwide DTT transmission, who is going to pay for the costs of transmission every year of the UK channels on Irish DTT?

pa990

Antenna wrote: »

who is going to pay for the costs of transmission every year of the UK channels on Irish DTT?

Not me... I've no intention of paying for DTT

MMDS offers better value than boxer.. But FTA sat offers the best value of all

channelsurfer

My prediction for boxer is that their 9.99 package will actually contain all the channels they intended to sell for 22.99 as a start up offer. only way they will be viable.

bk

channelsurfer wrote: »

My prediction for boxer is that their 9.99 package will actually contain all the channels they intended to sell for 22.99 as a start up offer. only way they will be viable.

I agree it is the only chance they have. The only hole in the Irish market is 20 channels for less then €20.

UPC offer 40 channels for €20 and sky about 100 for €22, so 20 channels for €23 is a non starter.

Even at €10 for 20 channels it would still be a difficult (but not impossible) sell versus Freesat. The advantage would be integrated Irish and UK channels in one box and lower start up fees.

STB wrote:

Two words..... rights issues.

What rights issues, BBC, UTV and C4 all already have full rights to broadcast all their shows in Ireland, that is how there are already on cable and FTA satellite in Ireland. Trust me, no rights holders would risk upsetting these big channels over a relatively minor issue of Irish rights, in fact they normally include the Irish rights (non exclusive, so that they can also sell to RTE) for little or no extra cost when these big channels buy shows for the UK market.

TheDriver wrote:

I disagree, most people I know with Sky never watch anything other than Irish and Free UK channels anyways and have no comprehension of free TV and what they don't need to pay for.

I wouldn't under estimate people, Irish people have been sticking up big aerials to pick up the UK channels pretty much since the BBC started broadcasting.

The problem with FTA channels on a Sky box is that it is a pretty poor experience with limited EPG, no Irish channels and no PVR.

Once integrated DTT/Freesat SD PVR boxes for a reasonable price arrive on the market, word will quickly spread and they will sell like hotcakes.

I've about a dozen people ready to switch to Freesat, just waiting for a reasonably priced SD PVR.

TheDriver

bk wrote: »

II wouldn't under estimate people, Irish people have been sticking up big aerials to pick up the UK channels pretty much since the BBC started broadcasting.
.

Most people I know wouldn't bother sticking up an aerial and all went for sky and getting multiroom etc, we are in the vast minority of people who know how to get stuff for free

bk

TheDriver wrote: »

Most people I know wouldn't bother sticking up an aerial and all went for sky and getting multiroom etc, we are in the vast minority of people who know how to get stuff for free

Sure, many people want sports, movies and docs and will clearly go Sky/UPC. But there are also many people who just get the main channel packages and when they learn you can get most of the channels for just a once of fee, they will jump at it.

Take the example of the UK, Freeview is now the number one TV platform ahead of Sky and Virgin.

Now Freesat is a little more expensive and a little more difficult to set up, so it probably won't be quiet as successful as Freeview is in the UK, but it will likely take a very significant chunk of the Irish market, perhaps as much as 30% on digital switch off.

SteM

bk wrote: »

Once integrated DTT/Freesat SD PVR boxes for a reasonable price arrive on the market, word will quickly spread and they will sell like hotcakes.

I've about a dozen people ready to switch to Freesat, just waiting for a reasonably priced SD PVR.

This is the key thing for the Irish market I believe. A box that can pick up DTT, Freesat channels, has one EPG for the both and can deliver PVR functionality.

I don't know if we'll ever see a reasonably affordable box that does all of this though.

STB

bk wrote: »

What rights issues, BBC, UTV and C4 all already have full rights to broadcast all their shows in Ireland, that is how there are already on cable and FTA satellite in Ireland. Trust me, no rights holders would risk upsetting these big channels over a relatively minor issue of Irish rights, in fact they normally include the Irish rights (non exclusive, so that they can also sell to RTE) for little or no extra cost when these big channels buy shows for the UK market.

First off cable is not free to air. It is only available in the form of a subscription package for which you have to pay and the company offering the services has to pay the broadcasters for the packaged content.

Prior to freesat, Channel 4 only became officially available to Sky viewers in the Republic of Ireland in December 2006 and even then that was a Channel4 lite version as they did not own the rights to broadcast certain programmes.

Do you honestly think that the ALL of the content on Freesat regardless of the station is covered by exclusive UK and Ireland rights owned by BBC/ITV/CH4 ? Heres a question for you. Football. Who has exclusive right for the Champions League in Ireland ? Ever seen the same games on ITV4 and RTE2 for those games ? Why is that ?

Heres a few more questions for you.

Does freesat exist in Ireland ? How come it hasnt been geoblocked ? Will it ever be ?

BTW. The Fortecstar Passion and Innovation HD PVR is cheap enough and has a 7 day EPG. But no DTT.

icdg

STB wrote: »

First off cable is not free to air. It is only available in the form of a subscription package for which you have to pay and the company offering the services has to pay the broadcasters for the packaged content.

Prior to freesat, Channel 4 only became officially available to Sky viewers in the Republic of Ireland in December 2006 and even then that was a Channel4 lite version as they did not own the rights to broadcast certain programmes.


Heres a few more questions for you.

Does freesat exist in Ireland ? How come it hasnt been geoblocked ? Will it ever be ?

To tackle the Freesat geoblocking question first - firstly, by geoblocking, the only fesiable way to do so is a conditional access system, with a smartcard. Unless the reciever has such a system there is no way for it to "know" what country it is in. Its the same principal as analogue TV being available in the Republic via overspill. It can't be done for Freesat as a whole (in the absence of huge co-operation between every single UK satellite broadcaster) but it can be done for individual channels. Lets take the BBC...

If you look back at the entire reason for the creation of Freesat, it was the BBC's enthusiasm to give up conditional access - or more to be precise, their enthusiasm to stop having to pay NDS (a subsidary of News Corporation, most prominent shareholder: Rupert Murdoch) for use of the Videoguard encryption system. The BBC was never a part of the Sky subscription package. Rather they essentially paid Sky/NDS to encrypt their service so they couldn't be recieved outside the UK (and the relevant Nations and Regions appeared in the "right" EPG positions). One was able to acquire a "Free-to-View card" to recieve the UK terrestrial channels prior to the existance of Freesat.

If you go back to conditional access, the BBC have to go back to Videoguard. Back cap in hand to NDS who will be able to name their price. Oh, and all those Freesat boxes in the UK won't be able to recieve the BBC any more (they're not built for conditional access). Or any other non-proprietary box. You'd be back to Sky Digiboxes and nothing else. You could adopt a system other than Videoguard, which would have the effect of cutting out Sky subscribers, equally as disasterous given Sky's large subscriber numbers.

As for the question, "Does Freesat exist in Ireland", which Alba's Sat4free project is now seemingly aborted (though there were boxes in my local Tesco's last time I checked), all of the channels are available on any DVB-S receiver and a dish pointed at Astra (and more channels besides). All Freesat is - and this needs to pointed out - is a common specification for DVB-S receivers, and, when it boils to it, a logo. The channels each individually organise their own broadcasting and most of them were broadcasting on satellite prior to the start of Freesat.

To tackle the rights issues, yes they are significant, although its funny you should mention Channel 4, which has been the sole UK broadcaster of the terrestrials to be actively buying Irish rights for its own commissions - which make up the vast majority of its programmes - for the past few years. It has proven far easier to clear rights for UK channels to broadcast into Ireland than it would for Irish channels to broadcast into the UK (given the population difference). This can be shown by the fact that of all major UK broadcasters (both pay TV and free to air), only Five is not widely available in the Republic in some shape or form.

MarkK

bk wrote: »

What rights issues, BBC, UTV and C4 all already have full rights to broadcast all their shows in Ireland, that is how there are already on cable and FTA satellite in Ireland.

So why are some shows blocked out on C4 on the Irish Sky EPG?

Hi ICDG,Five is now available throughout the republic fta.

Just going back to the points others have made on this thread-programme Rights for DTT retransmission of UK channels using that method in Ireland would have to be a new invention.

Like most people here agree,boxer is on shakey financial ground looking for to make money on a sub for UK channels when the majority of people can get them for free with little effort.
Thats doomed in my opinion to lose money.

micratoyota

TheDriver wrote: »

I disagree, most people I know with Sky never watch anything other than Irish and Free UK channels anyways and have no comprehension of free TV and what they don't need to pay for.

I slightly disagree down here in the South i tell people with sky about free channels but then they wont get the RTE's and TV3 so they stay with SKY. I read in a lot of the reports that the Gov. were supplying us with the basic FTA channels FREE to Air has this changed. Does this mean that we may not be able to buy the set top converter but pay by the month for it.

watty

The Main Irish channels will be free. But not from Satellite, but via aerial. Just as they are with analogue. The new Digital signals are received in the same way and by August 2009 when service is public, a set-box will be €60 to €300 depending on features. A once off purchase. Some TVs with Digital DVB-t & MPEG4 tuners built in are already on sale.

A subscription is only for EXTRA channels from Boxer, all but two of which are free from Satellite.

Combo boxes able to record and do Satellite via dish and the free DTT Irish Digital channels via aerial are already available. They are likely to be much better value and support program guides properly in late 2009.

For now the best solution cost wise is Analog TV via aerial for the 4 Irish channels and Sat4Free, Freesat, Out of contract Sky box or FTA Satellite Receiver for the main UK channels. It's better to wait till the irish Aerial based Digital TV actually launches before getting a set-box for DTT or a combo box.

Sony's PlayTV adaptor for PS3 (play BD and DVDs also) is likely to work next year via Software update.

micratoyota

At the moment I am using the connection I had with Chorus years ago to receive RTE TnaG and TV3. this is an analogue wire and legal I think. The four connectors(for 3 other houses andmy own) for Chorus are on my front wall. Will this still work when we go digital, or can they cut it off completely. I have been using this as an aerial for yonks

watty wrote: »

The Main Irish channels will be free. But not from Satellite, but via aerial. Just as they are with analogue. The new Digital signals are received in the same way and by August 2009 when service is public, a set-box will be €60 to €300 depending on features. A once off purchase. Some TVs with Digital DVB-t & MPEG4 tuners built in are already on sale.

A subscription is only for EXTRA channels from Boxer, all but two of which are free from Satellite.

Combo boxes able to record and do Satellite via dish and the free DTT Irish Digital channels via aerial are already available. They are likely to be much better value and support program guides properly in late 2009.

For now the best solution cost wise is Analog TV via aerial for the 4 Irish channels and Sat4Free, Freesat, Out of contract Sky box or FTA Satellite Receiver for the main UK channels. It's better to wait till the irish Aerial based Digital TV actually launches before getting a set-box for DTT or a combo box.

Sony's PlayTV adaptor for PS3 (play BD and DVDs also) is likely to work next year via Software update.

Dopey

micratoyota wrote: »

At the moment I am using the connection I had with Chorus years ago to receive RTE TnaG and TV3. this is an analogue wire and legal I think. The four connectors(for 3 other houses andmy own) for Chorus are on my front wall. Will this still work when we go digital, or can they cut it off completely. I have been using this as an aerial for yonks

When they disconnected you did Chorus not disconnect the plug from the socket on your front wall?

micratoyota

No they never Just disconnected it from the office and came and took the black box back. I dont think they do that anyway So I am still using the connection. Also a neighbour who had chorus digital discontinued it a few months ago and is still using the connection as an aerial. .